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INVESTIGATION OF ORGANIZED CRIME
IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
u „ HEARINGS
// "<^ ' (/vAl BEFORE THE
■ SPECIAL COMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE
OEGAJVIZEI) CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
UNITED STATES SENATE
EIGHTY-FIRST CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
AND
EIGHTY-SECOXD CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
PURSUANT TO
S. Res. 202
(81st Congress)
A RESOLUTION AUTHORIZING AN INVESTIGATION OF
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
ILLINOIS
/^.,
SEPTEMBER 9; OCTOBER 5, 6, 7, 17, IS, 19; DECEMBER 18, 19, 20, 1950;
JANUARY 5. 19, 1951
Printed for the use of the Special Committee To Investigate
Organized Crime in Interstate Commerce
UNITED STATES
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
«8958 WASHINGTOl^ : 1931
PUBLIC
H V(r^1-
C
I^.^
U. S. SUPERINTENDENT OF DOCUMENTS
MAR 26 1^51
SPECIAL COMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE ORGANIZED CRIME IN
INTERSTATE COMMERCE
ESTES KEPAUVER, Tennessee, Chairman
HERBERT R. O'CONOR, Maryland CHARLES W. TOBEY, New Hampshire
LESTER C. HUNT, Wyoming ALEXANDER WILEY, Wisconsin
Rudolph Halley, Chief Counsel
II
CONTENTS
Testimony of — Page
Accardo, Anthony J., alias Joe Batters, Chicago, 111., accompanied
by George F. Callaglian, attorney, Chicago, 111 1318-1341
Adducci, James J., State representative, Second District, Chicago,
111 636-644
Aiuppa, Joseph, Cicero, 111 1371-1375
Amis, William D., investigator for the committee, Washington,
J) Q _ _ _ _ _ _ 1211—1213'
Bennett^ Hugo^ Surfside^ Flalll lllllllllllll '275-308,' 33 1-346, 1288-1294
Bernstein, Eugene, attorney, Chicago, 111 467-515,701-710,916-937
Black, Abraham J., Morris, 111., accompanied by Raymond E. Traf-
elet, attornev, Chicago, 111 1 539-543
Boyle, John S., "State's attorney. Cook County, 111. 111-136, 151-174, 243-249
Brantman, William M., accountant and income-tax consultant,
Chicago, 111 651-664
Butler, George, detective lieutenant, police department, Dallas,
Tex 1175-1187
Butler, Joseph J., attornev, Chicago, 111 308-331
Campagna, Mrs. Charlotte, Berwyn, 111 515-517.645-651
Campagna, Louis ("Little New York"), Berwyn, 111 53-74,543-557
Capone, John, Chicago, 111 1251-1260
Oapone, Ralph J., Chicago, 111., and Mercer, Wis 1226-1250
Carroll, Leo Joseph, Miami, Fla 973-987
Cawley, Thomas J., La Salle, 111., accompanied by James F. Cahill,
representing Ward R. Lewis, public accountant. La Salle, 111 735-742,
1302-1310
D'Andrea, Philip, Hemet, Calif 346-372
DeLucia, Paul, alias Ricca, River Forest, 111 1-52,219-242
Devereux, W^alter J., Chicago Crime Commission 111-136
Dragna, Jack I., Los Angeles, Calif., accompanied by Samuel L. Kur-
land, attorney, Los Angeles, Calif "^ 407-437
Eardley, Robert C, first assistant attorney general, Illinois 111-136
Egner, Robert, Chicago, 111., accompanied by Joseph G. Finnert-> ,
attorney- ^ " 875-891
Elliott, Ivan A., attorney general, State of Illinois 111-136
Finerty, Joseph E., Gary, Ind 742-743
Fischetti, Mrs. Anne, Aliami Beach, Fla., accompanied by Charles E.
Ford, attorney, Washington, D. C 249-255
Friedman, Charles, Miami Beach, Fla., accompanied bv Ben Cohen,
attorney, Miami Beach, Fla ' 987-1000
Fusco, Joseph Charles, Stevens Hotel, Chicago, 111 558-569,593-622
Gherscovich, Anthony A., administrative assistant, office of State's
attorney. Cook County, 111 256-262
Gilbert, Capt. Daniel A., chief investigator, State's attornev's office.
Cook County, 111 '_ 569-592
Gioe (Joye), Charles, Chicago, 111 74-110
Greenberg, Alex, Chicago, 111 1343-1371
Harrison, Thomas, captain of police, Chicago, 111 622-636
Hilton, Henry M., attorney, Chicago, Ill___ 1043-1067
Ing, Bilson, Baltimore, Md., accompanied bv Joseph G. Finnertv,
attornev 1 '891-91 1
Jeske, Harold H., Pistakee Bav, McHenrv, 111 1310-1314
Johnston, William H., Chicago, 111., and Aliami, Fla 1294-1302
Jones, Edward P., Chicago, 111., accompanied bv Aaron Pavne, at-
tornev, Chicago, Ill--._ ' ".._ 1163-1175
Kelly, George, Chicago, 111 1068-1095
IV CONTEOSPTS
Testimony of— Continued . or.:- ^*^*
Kelly, Thomas F., general manager, Continental I'ress Service, Chi-
cafTO 111 accompanied bv Walter Gallagher and William Dempsev,
attorneys, Washington, D. C 691-701,710-718,771-848,1095-1136
Kennelly,'Hon. Martin ?!., mayor, Chicago, 111 111-136
Kerner " Otto, Jr., United States attorney, northern district of
Illinois-!. _!.--! 111-136,182-196
Kutner, Luis, attorney, Chicago, IlL 447-466
Lenz, Edward N., Crystal Lake, 111., accompanied by Walter Gallagher
and WiUiam Dempsev, attorneys, Washington, D. C 1001-1021
McBride, Edward John, Chicago, III, accompanied by Walter Gal-
lagher and William Dempsey, attorneys, Washington, D. C 437-447
McCullough, Robert, Cedar Lake, Ind 724-735
McGoldrick, Edward, Chicago, 111., accompanied by Benjamm J.
Schultz, attorney, Chicago, 111 1022-1042
Manno Patrick, alias Pat Manning, Winnetka, 111., accompanied by
Joseph E. Green, attorney, Chicago, 111 753-755, 118&-1204
Murphy, Elden, sergeant, Illinois State police, district No. 6, Pontiac,
IlL
534-539
O'Har'a' Ralph J., fiedtville. 111., accompanied by George F. Callag-
han, attorney, Chicago, 111 io?FToo«
O'Mara, John J., Winthrop Harbor, 111. _- l2l6-lZ2b
Prendergast, John C, commissioner of police, Chicago, ill. 111-ldb, Id7-i51
Pretzie, Frederick, Jr., administrative assistant, Chicago Crime Com-
mission o«n 1 oo?
Patton, John, Burnham, 111 .... 1260-1287
Roe, Theodore, Chicago, 111., accompanied by Edward J. He^ss at-
tornev, Chicago, 111 . .. . 743-749, 1137
Rosselli", John, Hollywood, Calif., accompanied by Otto Christensen,
attorney, Los Angeles, Calif ilQ~Q7l
Samelson, Morton W^, Chicago, HI---- ahr kaV 7'^~7"7~7'^ o^tZo?!
Serritella, Daniel Anthony, Chicago, 111 664r-691, 757-771, 953-971
Shea, James A., Chicago, 111 _ . . . . ? ^7^4
Silverberg, Max, Belmont Hotel, Chicago, 111. . 719-724
Spellisy, William, Morris, 111., accompanied by Raymond E. irafelet,
attorney, Chicago, 111 - - ----- r 517-534
Stevenson, Hon. Adlai E., Governor of the State of Illinois accom-
panied by William M. Blair, Jr., Administrative Assistant, and V\ illiam
Flanagan, head, division of reports ^;,^7rQ" lonZTol i
Tremont Peter C, Chicago, 111 749-753, 1204-1211
wS, Ehner^^ HI- 111-136, 154-182, 262-274
Schedule of exhibits . .
Saturday, September 9, 1950 \
Thursday, October 5, 1950 ^^^
Friday, October 6, 1950 ^^^
Saturday, October 7, 1950 2r7
Tuesday, October 17, 1950 *5'
Wednesday, October 18, 1950 o^^
Thursday," October 19, 1950 ^^o
Monday, December 18, 1950 »^^
Tuesday, December 19, 1950 ^'^
Wednesday, December 20, 1950 J^sy
Friday, January 5, 1951 ^„.„
Friday, January 19, 1951 J^^^
Appendix
CONTEINTS
SCHEDULE OF EXHIBITS
Number and summary of exhibits
Intro-
duced
on
page —
1. Subpena for appearance of Paul DeLucia, alias Ricca, River
Forest, 111
2. Record book of Paul DeLucia, showing employes, wages, etc.
3. Income-tax statements of Paul DeLucia for the years 1947
1948, and 1949
4. Two red books of record, submitted by Paul DeLucia
5. Subpena for appearance of Louis Campagna, River Forest,
111
6. Ledger of accounts submitted by Louis Campagna
7. Brown envelopes containing bills and papers of Louis Cam-
pagna
8. Folder containing tax returns of Louis Campagna
9. Miscellaneous documents of Louis Campagna
10. Documents pertaining to income-tax returns of Louis Cam-
pagna
11. Manila folder containing miscellaneous documents of Louis
Campagna
12. Subpena for appearance of Charles Gioe, Chicago, 111
13. Canceled checks and bank statements of Charles Gioe
14. Book entitled "Work Sheets, Balance Sheets, Bank Recon-
ciliations, etc.," submitted by Charles Gioe
15. Black ledger book of Charles Gioe
16. Envelope containing balance sheets of Charles Gioe
17. Penciled copv of income-tax returns of Charles Gioe, for 1941
and 1942_I
18. Tax return of Charles Gioe for 1948
19. Tax return of Charles Gioe for 1949
20. List of police captains suspended by Chicago Police Depart-
ment, furnished by Commissioner Prendergast
21. Statement outlining procedure for obtaining amusement and
liquor licenses in the city of Chicago and in the State of
Illinois, furnished by Mayor Kennelly ---
22. Statement to the committee from Ivan A. Elliott, attorney
general, State of Illinois, dated July 11, 1950
23. Chart showing organization of Chicago Police Department,
furnished by Commissioner Prendergast
24. Number of crimes reported for the first 10 months of 1949,
from the Chicago Police Department
25. Two letters to the committee from Sheriff E. M. Walsh,
Cook County, 111., dated July 7 and August 17, 1950
26. Tabulations submitted b\^ Gov. Adali E. Stevenson, showing
activities of Illinois State Police force, with regard to gam-
bling
27. Information furnished by Governor Stevenson with regard to
to "some 35 syndicates of various cities, etc."
28. Records submited bv John S. Bovle, State's attornev, Cook
County, 111 1 1
29. Information and letters furnished by State's Attorney Boyle
with regard to sheriff's office car being observed outside
gambling house
30. Grand-jury statements re Chief of Police Henry A. Wlekinski^
31. Resume of activities and raids made bv State's Attornev
Boyle, Cook County, 111 1 1
32. Booklet entitled "Let's Look at His Record," submitted bv
Sheriff Walsh, Cook County, 111 "_
33. List of stockholdings of Hugo Bennett
34. Package submitted by Philip D'Andrea, containing bank
statements, deeds, etc
See footnotes at end of table.
2
4
5
5
53
53
53
54
54
54
54
75
75
75
75
75
75
75
75
120
128
136
137
144
182
211
213
243
257
259
259
274
277
346
VI
CONTENTS
SCHEDULE OF EXHIBITS— Continued
Number and summary of exhibits
Intro-
duced
on
page —
Appears
on
page —
35. Statement of William Spellisy, Morris, 111
36. Photographs of raid on Seven Gables, identified by Elden
Murphy, sergeant, Illinois State Police
37. Photostats of figures re Seven Gables operation
38. Photostats of two checks signed by Max Silverberg, pavable
to Hugo Bennett, dated October 28, 1944, and May 15,
1948, in the amounts of $5,000 and $15,000, respectively,
and photostat of note covering $15,000 loan
39. Letter dated July 13, 1949, from J. M. Lebit, to Commissioner
of Internal Revenue
40. Summarv of evidence now in the record as of a date prior to
Decernber 18, 1950
41. Chart showing telegraph lines operated by Continental Press
Service
41A. Chart showing wire service operated by Continental Press
Service and its distributors as of May 1950
42. Chart showing operations of Trans-American Publishing &
News Service, as of March 1947
43. Chronology of certain major events in the history of the wire
service since 1945
44. List of witnesses on whom the committee has been unable to
serve subpenas as of December 18, 1950, and who have not
appeared in response to the committee's requests
45. Transcript of the bank account of Trans-American Publish-
ing & News Service, Inc., with Amalgamated Trust & Sav-
ings Bank
46. Photostatic copies of deposit slips of Trans-American Pub-
lishing & News Service, Inc
47. Bank deposit slips of currency, showing deposits of Trans-
American Publishing & News Service, Inc
48. Recordak checks made to Trans-American Publishing & News
Service, Inc
49. Memorandum prepared by Harold G. Robinson, chief investi-
gator to the committee, summarizing testimony before the
committee on the wire service in Las Vegas, re Golden Nug-
get horse book, operated by "Bugsy" Siegel prior to his
deathj
50. Telegram dated April 7, 1947, from W. Wortman, Reliable
News Service, East St. Louis, Mo., to R. & H. Publishers,
177 North State Street, Chicago, 111., attention Phil Katz..
51. Eleven photographs of a building called the Show Place,
located just outside the Garden State race track, Camden,
N. J., showing the wigwagging of racing results going on..
52. Interview with Richard M. Mangan, by Investigator George
H. Martin, showing Mangan's employment originally by
Continental Press Service and then the switch-oflf to Howard
Sports News
63. Letter to Hon. Estes Kefauver, dated October 6, 1950, signed
by E. R. Shute, vice president. Western Union
54. Sheet of definitions and regulations sent to the committee by
Western Union relating to leased facilities in the Miami
Beach area
55. Various materials from Western Union, including "Leased
circuits used for dissemination of racing information in the
State of Florida," showing discontinuation and restoration
of service; also showing great number of hotels in Miami
area which had wire service
56. Letter from Eugene Bernstein, dated July 14, 1947, to Reliable
News Service, 1919 State Street, East St. Louis, 111
See footnotes at end of table.
519
1383
537
537
721
1384
829
(')
854
1386
854
e)
854
1390
854
1390
854
1391
854
857
858
858
863
1394
864
1394
871
1396
876
Q)
889
1396
893
1399
895
1400
896
921
1401
1405
COXTENTS
SCHEDULE OF EXHIBITS— Continued
vn
Number and summary of exhibits
Intro-
duced
on
page —
Appears
on
page —
57.f List'of^customers of General News Service Bureau, submitted
by Edward McGoldrick, owner
58.[ Letter dated February 24, 1947, from George W. Rochester,
attorney, addressed to Ralph O'Hara, Trans-American
Publishing & News Service, Chicago, 111., also attachment
on letterhead of George W. Rochester, attorney, addressed
to Trans-American "Re People v. Moran, Luczak, and
Sankiewica," listing certain costs in the amount of $1,170_
59. Letter from Ralph J. O'Hara, Trans-American Publishing &
News Service, Inc., addressed to George W. Rochester,
acknowledging receipt of letter of February 24, 1947
60. Figures taken from books and records of Maine-Idaho Club,
showing gross and net income
61. Figures taken from books of Maine-Idaho Club for the years
1948 and 1949, showing the "ins" and "outs," the net
income, the paper and supplies purchased, rent and moving,
machines, light and telephone, taxes, repairs, etc
62. Chart of the policy-wheel operations in Chicago, 111., 1945 to
1950, composed of information from the files of the com-
mittee
63. Photograph taken by department of public safety photog-
rapher, in Dallas, Tex., showing Pat Manno, alias Manning,
Paul Jones, and Jack Knapp leaving home of Sheriff Steve
Guthrie, after conversation which was recorded by tech-
nician from Dallas district attorney's office
64. Partial transcript of recordings of conversations between Paul
Jones, Pat Manno, alias Manning, Lieutenant Butler, and
Sheriff Steve Guthrie, held in residence of Sheriff Guthrie,
in Dallas, Tex
65. Minutes of meeting of industry committee on H. R. 6736,
American Coin Machine Manufacturer's Association, on
February 17, 1950
66. List of distributors of O. D. Jennings Co., submitted by Harold
H. Jeske, vice president
67. Map of United States, showing machines sold by O. D. Jen-
nings Co., in each State in 1949, prepared and submitted
by Harold H. Jeske, vice president
68. Chart showing leadership of Capone syndicate and muscling
into S. & G. in Florida
69. Photostats of two checks, each in the amount of $5,000, from
the S. & G. Service, dated February 2 and February 9, 1950,
payable to the order of Tony Accardo
70. Resume of property holdings and business interests of Alex
Greenberg, Chicago, 111
71. List of gambling establishments taken from list of customers
of Taylor & Co., Chicago, 111
72. Books and records of Joseph Aiuppa, Cicero, 111
1027
1091
1091
1150
1163
1176
1184
1184
1405
1406
1406
1407
1408
1409
1410
1312
1410
1312
1413
1312
e)
1320
1415
1325
1416
1359
{')
1377
1377
(0
' Returned to witness.
' On file with committee.
INVESTIGATION OF OKGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE
COMMERCE
SATURDAY, SEPTEMBER 9, 1950
United States Senate,
Special Committee To Investigate Organized
Crime in Interstate Commerce,
Washington, D. C.
executive session
The committee met, pursuant to call of the chairman, at 10 a. m., in
room 457, Senate Office Building, Senator Estes Kefauver (chairman)
presiding.
Present : Senators Kefauver, "Wiley, and Hunt.
Also present : Rudolph Halley, chief counsel, and George Robinson,
associate counsel.
The Chairman. The committee will come to order.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give this
committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Campagna. I do.
Mr. DeLucia. I do.
The Chairman. All right, Mr. Robinson, will you proceed.
TESTIMONY OF PAUL DeLUCIA, ALIAS RICCA, RIVER FOREST, ILL.
Mr. Robinson. Will you state your full name, please ?
Mr. DeLucia. Paul DeLucia.
Mr. Robinson. Are you known by any other name ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Robinson. What are the other names?
Mr. DeLucia. Ricca and Salvi.
Mr. Robinson. What ife your present address ?
Mr. DeLucia. River Forest, 111.
The ChxURMan. How many different names did you use?
Mr. DeLucia. I don't know. Any place I go I mention any name
that comes to my mind.
Senator Wiley. What did you do that for ?
Mr. DeLucia. Oh, just a habit.
Senator Wiley. Just a habit ?
(No response.)
The Chairman. How old are you ?
Mr. DeLucia. I am 52, 51.
Mr. Robinson. You were served with a subpena on the 5th day of
September to appear before the committee and produce certain records ;
is that correct?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes, sir.
2 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMAIERCE
Mr. Robinson. Do you liave those records with you ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes, sir.
Mr. Robinson. Would you produce them?
]Mr. Chairman, may I olfer in evidence the subpena?
The Chairman. Yes; the subpena will be received in evidence. It
describes upon the face of it the records that the witness has been
required to bring. It will be put in the record at this point as exhibit
No. 1.
(Exhibit No. 1 appears in the appendix on p. 1379.)
Mr. DeLucia. May I explain something? The subpena was to
bring the records for 10 years. I only got the records from 1947.
That is the day I came out from the penitentiary. Before that I was
3 years and 8 months in the penitentiary, and during that time there
was a tax settlement, so all the records I don't have any more. I can
only give you the records since I came out.
Mr. Robinson. When did you go to the penitentiary ?
Mr. DeLucia. 1944— the last day of 1943.
Mr. Robinson. When did you come out ?
Mr. DeLucia. 1947.
Mr. Robinson. I understand these records which you are producing
are only from the time that you came out of the penitentiary.
Mr. DeLucia. Yes ; that is all I have.
Mr. Robinson. You have no records from 1940 until the time that
you went into the penitentiary?
Mr. DeLucia. No; I filed my income tax regularly but I haven't
got them.
Mr. Robinson. You have no canceled checks for that period ?
Mr. DeLucia. No ; that is all gone.
Mr. Robinson. Did you have any canceled checks ?
Mr. DeLucia. Oh, sure.
Mr. Robinson. Where are they?
Mr. DeLucia. I don't know. When I come out, I was told by my
lawyer that the old records were no good any more and they were all
settled and I could do what I want.
Senator Wiley. Who told you that ?
Mr. DeLucia. My lawyer.
Senator Wiley. Who is your lawyer?
Mr. DeLucia. Bernstein. The tax man told me the records were
no good any more so I just got rid of them.
Senator Wiley. Give me the name of that lawyer.
Mr. DeLucia. Bernstein, Eugene Bernstein. He is a tax man. He
is the fellow who took my income-tax case with the Government?
Senator Wiley. Was he a Government man ?
Mr. DeLucia. No ; he was my lawyer.
Senator Wiley. Chicago?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes. I got those records from him when I came out.
Senator Wiley. Did you have any Kansas City lawyer ?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Senator Wiley. No ?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Robinson. Did you destroy the records or did Mr. Bernstein?
Mr. DeLucia. I did. I got a room and got rid of them.
Mr. Robinson. When did you destroy them ?
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTEiRSTATE COMMERCE 3
Mr. DeLucia. Shortly after I come out. Shortly after he gave them
to me.
]\Ir. Robinson. Shortly after you came out ?
Mr. DeLucia. Shortly after he give them to me.
Mr. Robinson. Can you fix the approximate time when you did
destroy them, what year ?
Mr. DeLucia. I tliink 1947, the latter part of 1947.
Mr. Robinson. You destroyed the records that j^ou had from 1940
up until the time that you went into the penitentiary in 1947 ; is that
right ?
Mr. DeLucia. No. Let me explain this. Mr. Bernstein told me
that my income-tax case was cleared up to 1943. All my tax with the
Government was settled up to 1943. That was the year I went to jail.
After that I was 3 years and 8 months in jail, and of course I had
nothing to show, so when he gave me the records, he said, "You can do
as you want with the records, the records are worthless, the tax is
settled,'' and that is all.
Mr. Robinson. Did Mr. Bernstein tell you to destroy them ?
Mr. DeLucia. No; he told me they are useless and do what you
want.
Mr. Robinson. Let us get it clear. During the time from 1940 to
the time you went to the penitentiary, was Mr. Bernstein preparing
your income-tax returns ?
Mr. DeLuc'a. No ; not from 1940.
Mr. Robinson. I am saying from 1940 until the time you went into
the penitentiary.
Mr. DeLucia. No. He got my case when I was in jail.
Mr. Robinson. AVlio prepared your tax returns from 1940 to the
time you went to jail ?
]Mr. DeLucia. Myself.
]Mr. Robinson. You prepared them yourself ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes, sir.
Mr. Robinson. And you have no cancelled checks, no books show-
ing receipts and expenditures for the period from 1940 until the time
you went into the penitentiary ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes; that is right.
Mr. Robinson. You destroyed all of them ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes, sir.
Mr. Robinson. Did you keep such books?
Mr. DeLucia. Oh, yes; I had a checkbook with Northern Trust.
You know those records. After all, them days there was nothing for
me to keep.
Mr. Robinson. Did you have a bank account at that time ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes ; with the Nortliern Trust.
Mr. Robinson. Did you have bank statements ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Robinson. Did you destroy all the bank statements ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes. The Northern Trust.
Mr. Robinson. Did you destroy all check stubs?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Robinson. Did you destroy all the copies of your tax returns
for that period?
Mr. DeLucia. Whatever I got from him, I destroyed. It was all
that he had. He had all the stuff to prepare my case with the Tax
4 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Court. So I got those records back, and he said, "Do what you
want," and I destroyed them.
Mr. Robinson. During that time that you were in the penitentiary,
did somebody operate your business for you 'i
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Robinson. Who ?
Mr. DeLucia. They did not operate it. I rent my farm to Francis
Corri, and I got $7 an acre rent. That was filed.
Mr. Robinson. Who kept the books for you while you were in the
penitentiary ?
Mr. DeLucia. Bernstein.
Mr. Robinson. Where are the books that were kept at the time
you were in the penitentiary?
Mr. DeLucia. Them 3 years went together with all the stuff he
gave me. Naturally I got rid of all that.
Mr. Robinson. You destroyed all that at the time you came out of
the penitentiary?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes; from the time I come out, there it is [indi-
cating] .
Mr, Robinson. Now, when Mr. Bernstein was preparing your tax
returns, what information did you submit to him as a basis for
preparing the returns?
Mr. DeLucia. It was very easy. The rent I was getting from the
farm was so much. I think it was about 6 or 7 thousand dollars a
year.
The Chairman. How did you destroy the records ? Did you throw
them away or burn them ?
Mr. DeLucia. I burned them. They were useless. I didn't know
this was going to come up.
The Chairman. Did you burn them?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes; I burned them.
Mr. Robinson. Would you take these records and describe what
each one is?
Mr. DeLucia. This is the book where all the people work, their
security number and all that.
The Chairman. Will you identify them as we go along for the
record, so we can put them in as exhibits ?
Mr. Robinson. Yes.
Mr. DeLucia. These are my income tax.
The Chairman. Let this be marked as "Exhibit No. 2."
(Exhibit No. 2 was returned to witness after analysis by the com-
mittee.)
Mr. Robinson. Directing your attention to exhibit 2, would you
describe what that book is ?
Mr. DeLucia. You know I am not familiar with the book because
Bernstein kept it. That is supposed to be the agenda where the
men work and how much they get a year. You know, you are sup-
posed to report to the Government how much you pay them a year.
If you pay over $500, you have to report that, and their security
number.
Mr. Robinson. On exhibit 2, when did you start keeping that book ?
Mr. DeLucia. In 1947. What is there, I am not very much familiar.
He has been taking care of all that.
ORGANIZEiD CRIME. IN INTEiRSTATE COMMERCE O
Mr. EoBiNSON. Who keeps the book for you ?
Mr. DeLucia. Bernstein.
Mr. Robinson. All right.
The Chairman. All right, let us go on with the next exhibit. That
will be made exhibit No. 2 to the testimony.
Mr. Robinson. What are those j)apers?
Mr. DeLucia. These are the income-tax returns.
Mr. Robinson. For what period ?
Mr. DeLucia. 1947, 1948, 1949.
The Chairman. That will be exhibit No. 3.
Mr. Robinson. These two red books are marked "Exhibit No. 4."
The ChairjMan. Those will be combined as exhibit No. 4.
(Exhibits Nos. 3 and 4 were later returned to witness.)
Mr. Robinson. What are those ?
Mr. DeLucia. That is all the exj)ense.
Mr. Robinson. Exhibits 4 and 5 pertain to what?
Mr. DeLucia. To the farm — my business.
Mr. Robinson. Do you have any books or records showing interest
held in any property or any business other than the ones you have
submitted ?
Mr. DeLucia. No. I own no interest. I only own about 170 shares
or 180 shares of Bank of America. I think that is in there, too. Those
shares turn dividends, and that is coming in, and I turn that in. Any-
way I have about 170 or 180 shares of Bank of America stock. That
book does not show my house at River Forest and my house at Long
Beach.
Mr. Robinson. You receive income from those properties?
Mr. DeLucia. No, sir.
Mr. Robinson. Do you have any correspondence relating to any of
these documents ?
Mr. DeLucia. What?
Mr. Robinson. Do you have any correspondence relating to any
of these documents ?
The Chairman. Any letters.
Mr. DeLucia. Anything that is there can be backed up with checks
or bills.
Mr. Robinson. Do you have the canceled checks ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Robinson. Where are they ?
]\Ir. DeLucia. I did not bring them with me. If you want them,
I will bring them. I didn't think it was necessary.
Mr. Robinson. Do you have those ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes, sir.
Mr. Robinson, Do you have them in your possession ?
Mr. DeLucia. All the records from 1947, I got.
]\Ir. Robinson. Do you have them in your rtossession ?
Mr. DeLucia. No. sir.
Mr. Robinson. Does Mr. Bernstein ?
Mr. DeLucia. I have.
Mr. Robinson. Why were those not produced ?
Mr. DeLucia. I didn't know you needed it. That is all there. I
didn't know you wanted that.
6 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. EoBiNSON. They are called for by the subpena, that is, the can-
celed checks.
Mr. DeLucia. I am sorry. I did not understand that.
The Chairman. Will you send or bring in the canceled checks as
Mr. Robinson directs?
Mr. DeLucia. Certainly,
Mr. Robinson. Do you have any other documents besides the can-
celed checks that you did not produce ?
Mr. DeLucia. What other documents are you talking about ?
Mr. Robinson. Do you have any bank statements ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Robinson. Will you produce all of those statements?
Mr. DeLucia. Certainly.
Mr. Robinson. What properties do you presently own, Mr. DeLucia ?
Mr. DeLucia. I own a house in Long Beach and a house at River
Forest.
The Chairman. Where is that?
Mr. DeLucia. Illinois. And the farm in Illinois.
The Chairman. Where is the farm ?
Mr. DeLucia. In Kendall County, 111.
Mr. Robinson. How^ large is the farm ?
Mr. DeLucia. 1,100 acres.
Mr. Robinson. Wliat is the value of it ?
Mr. DeLucia. Well, you mean right now?
Mr. Robinson. If you know?
Mr. DeLucia. They just sold some land around there for $450 an
acre, so you can figure it out.
Mr. Robinson. Did you buy that farm ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes, sir.
Mr. Robinson. When did you buy it ?
Mr. DeLucia. I think in 1941 or 1942.
Mr. Robinson. How much did you pay for it ?
Mr. DeLucia. I paid $130 an acre from the Prudential Co. I paid
down $35,000 and year by year I have been paying the mortgage. I
think I still owe about $80,000.
Mr. Robinson. How much improvements have you put on it ?
The Chairman. What was the total purchase price ?
Mr. DeLucia. $130,000, something around there.
Mr. Robinson. How much improvements have you put on it ?
Mr. DeLucia. Oh, I would say over $100,000.
Mr. Robinson. Since 1947 ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes, sir. I build something previous to that, but
most of the building I did from 1947 on.
Mr. Robinson. You put $100,000 improvements on it since 1947?
Mr. DeLucia. Maybe more than that. Don't keep me to it.
Mr. Robinson. Approximately.
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Robinson. How much improvement did you put on it before
1947?
Mr. DeLucia. Well, I suppose I build a corn crib there about $4,500.
It is too far gone. I believe $10,000 or something like that. I wouldn't
know for sure.
Senator Wiley. When you bought the farm, did you buy any cows,
horses, or machinery ?
OR^ATSriZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 7
Mr. DeLucia. No ; you see, the insurance company had that.
Senator Wiley. You just bought the land ?
Mr. DeLucia. They had it rented. I bought the land.
Senator Wiley. How much do you have on it now in horses, cows,
machinery, and so forth?
Mr. DeLucia. Oh, I got about 120 steers — not milk cows, but heifers,
steers, you know ; about 300 pigs ; about two or three hundred chickens,
horses.
Senator Wiley. Machinery ?
Mr. DeLucia. Huh?
Senator Wiley. Machinery ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Senator Wiley. How much did you spend for all that?
Mr. DeLucia. It is all in there, Senator. I wouldn't know.
Mr. Robinson. Do you receive any revenue from the farm? '
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Robinson. Approximately how much do you receive annually
in revenue from the farm ?
Mr. DeLucia. It is in the income tax. I had a little memorandum.
I think the first year was $8,000, or something like that, the second
year $25,000, the third year was $42,000, or something like that.
Mr. Robinson. What year did you receive $42,000?
Mr. DeLucia. Last year. That is all in there on the income tax.
Mr. Robinson. What is the property that you have at River Forest?
Mr. DeLucia. That is a house and a lot.
Mr. Robinson. Is that your residence ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Robinson. When did you acquire that ?
Mr. DeLucia. 1938.
Mr. Robinson. How much did you pay for it ?
Mr. DeLucia. $25,000. I paid $25,000 for the house and I paid
about $4,000 for the lot. It was a good buy.
Mr. Robinson. How much improvements have you put on that?
Mr, DeLucia, On the house I put around $30,000 improvement
and on the lot, which cost me around $4,000 as close as I remember,
that is to improve. It was all a mess, I leveled it off.
Senator Wiley. Did you build the house ?
Mr. DeLucia. No ; I built an addition to the house.
Mr. Robinson. What was the value of the other property at Long
Beach ?
Mr. DeLucia. I bought a house for $14,000. I bought that in 1934.
I remember that. Since then I made some improvement and all
that. Then I bought about four extra lots. Do you want to know
the value now ?
Mr. Robinson. If you know.
Mr. DeLucia. The house burned down, and I only got a caretaker
house there, so you can figure for yourself. I don't know. It prob-
ably went up a lot. I suppose I can get forty or fifty thousand dollars
for that place if I wanted to sell it.
Mr. Robinson. What other property do you have?
Mr. DeLucia, That is about all.
Mr. Robinson. "That is about all." Is there any other that you
do have?
Mr. DeLucia. No, sir.
8 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Senator Wiley. Stocks and bonds ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes, I have stocks. I have about $11,000 worth of
stock.
Senator Wiley. What company?
Mr. DeLucia. Government stock, what you call it, war bonds.
Mr. Robinson. Government bonds.
Mr. DeLucia. Yes, sir.
Mr. Robinson. Do you have any other bonds ?
Mr. DeLucia. No, sir.
Mr. Robinson. Do you have any stock ?
Mr. DeLucia. Stock I told you.
Senator Wiley. Bank of America.
Mr. Dp:Lucia. Yes, and I think I have two or three shares of the
Farmer Grange company. That is a mutual affair there. You bring
your stuff in and you get a dividend tliere every year. You buy from
them. It is a Farmer Grange company.
Mr. Robinson. Approximately what is the total value of the stock
you have ^
Mr. DeLucia. The Bank of America today costs about $27 a share.
Mr. Robinson. How many shares did you say you have?
Mr. DeLucia. About 180.
Mr. Robinson. That is all the stock you own?
Mr. DeLucia. That is all I can recall.
Senator Wiley. How about cash ? How much cash do you have ?
Mr. DeLucia. How much cash I got. Do I have to tell you that,
sir
Mr. Halley. Yes.
Mr. DeLucia. I don't know. I think I got about close to $40,000.
Senator AViley. In cash ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Senator Wiley. Do you have any safety deposit boxes ?
Mr. DeLucia. No ; I got it in the room or some other place.
Senator Wiley. Where is it ?
Mr. DeLucia. If I tell you, you can't get it out of there anyway.
The Chairman. This is an executive session.
Mr. DeLucia. Do I have to tell it ?
The Chairman. You have to tell it.
Mr. DeLucia. I got it home.
Senator Wiley. Do you have any safety deposit boxes in any banks?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Senator Wiley. What bank ?
Mr. DeLucia. First National Bank.
Senator Wiley. Any other bank?
Mr. DeLucia. No, sir. .
Senator Wiley. First National Bank of Chicago?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Halley. What do you keep in your safety deposit box ?
Mr. DeLucia. All the documents and stuff.
Mr. Halley. Any cash ?
Mr. DeLucia. I keep money there, too.
Mr. Haeley. Do you have cash there now, too?
Mr. DeLucia. Not now.
Mr. Halley. Do you own any diamonds ?
Mr. DeLucia. My Mrs. has.
ORGANIZED CRIME: IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 9
Mr. Halley, Will you estimate tlie value of the diamonds?
Mr. DeLucia. Now, I don't know what she has. She has a ring .
Mr. Halley. AVould you estimate the value of the diamond ^
]\lr. DeLucia. No. A bracelet or something like that.
Mr. Halley. What is your best estimate of the value ? What did
you pay for them altogether?
Mr. DeLucia. I don't know about the pricing of those things. It
was kind of a small affair.
The CiiAiKMAN. $5,000 or $10,000 ?
Mr. DeLl^cia. I would say around four or five thousand dollars,
something like that.
Senator Wiley. That is your wife you are talking about?
Mr, DeLucia, Yes.
Senator Wiley. Did you make any gifts to anybody else during this
period since you came out ?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Senator Wiley. Does your wife have any stock in her name?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Senator Wiley. Any property?
Mr. DeLucia. The house at River Forest and the house at Long
Beach is in her name and the farm is in my name and her name.
Senator Wiley. Does she have a safety deposit box ?
Mr. DeLucia. No : we have a joint deposit box.
Senator Wiley. Have you given to her any other property except
what you mentioned ?
Mr. DeLucia. No, sir.
Senator Wiley. Have you any children?
Mr. DeLucia, Yes, sir.
Senator Wiley. How many?
Mr. DeLu'cia. Three.
Senator Wiley. What have you done for them ?
Mr. DeLucia, Well, the one is married.
Senator Wiley. I understand. But what have you given to them,
or conveyed to them ? Have you given them any property ?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Senator Wiley, Any stock?
Mr. DeLucia. Oh, I had a trust fund for them.
Senator Wiley. How much did you set that up for ?
Mr, DeLucia, $20,000,
Senator Wiley. When did you do that?
Mr. DeLucia, 1936.
Senator Wiley. Have you set up any other funds since?
Mr. DeLucia. For my boy, $20,000 at the same time.
Senator Wiley. One boy and one girl ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Senator Wiley. That was in 1936 ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes,
Senator Wiley. Have you put any money in it since then ?
Mr. DeLucia. No, not since then.
Senator Wiley. Do you carrv any insurance?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes. '
Senator Wiley. Life insurance ?
Mr. DeLucia, Yes,
6S958 — 51 — pt. 5 2
10 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Senator Wiley. How much are the premiums on your life insur-
ance?
Mr. DeLttcia. With the Northwest Wisconsin.
Senator Wilet. That is a good company.
Mr, DeLucia. I think I pay about seven or eight hundred dollars
a year. It is a $20,000 policy. There are different ones, five, five, and
ten.
Senator Wiley, That is all you carry ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes, as far as I recall.
The Chairman. Very well. Let us proceed.
Mr. DeLucia, My boy, the little one, I took a policy — I was going to
take the same policy for the little boy, and I was paying $2,000 a year,
but I dropped it since 1940 or 1939.
Senator Wiley. This book indicates your income since you came
out of prison ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Senator Wiley. You were paroled, were you not ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Senator Wiley. And that is your only source of income, that which,
you have enumerated here?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Senator Wiley. From your farm and from your stocks.
Mr. DeLucia. Yes, sir.
Senator Wiley. Any other sources ?
Mr. DeLucia. No, sir.
Senator Wiley, And from the you have made all the improvements
and investments since 1947 ?
Mr, DeLucia. No, I put my money in there.
Senator Wiley. You had some money when you went to the peni-
tentiary ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Senator Wiley. How much did you have when you went to the
penitentiary ?
Mr, DeLucia. Three hundred thousand dollars.
Senator Wiley. Who paid the fine?
Mr. DeLucia. I don't know.
Senator Wiley, There was $10,000 paid.
Mr. DeLucia. Yes, sir.
Senator Wiley. You never found out who paid it?
Mr. DeLucia. No, sir.
Senator Wiley. You have no suspicion ?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Senator Wiley. Wlio was your attorney in your parole case?
Mr. DeLucia. What do you mean ?
Senator Wiley. Wlien you came out of prison you were paroled.
Mr. DeLucia, Yes,
Senator Wiley. How big a sentence did you get?
Mr. DeLucia, Ten years.
Senator Wiley. You served 3 years?
Mr. DeLucia, Yes, sir.
Senator Wiley. You are out on parole now?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Senator Wiley. You were not pardoned?
Mr. DeLucia. That is right.
ORGANIZED CRIME' IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 11
Senator "Wiley. Who was your attorney?
Mr. DeLucia. That story is well known. It is Mr. Dillon.
Senator Wiley. Where is he, from St. Louis?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Senator Wiley. St. Louis, Mo.?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Senator Wiley. What is his first name ?
Mr. DeLucia. I don't know. I don't know his first name.
Senator Wiley. How much did you pay him ?
Mr. DeLucia. After I came out we paid him $10,000. Campagna
paid $5,000 and I paid $5,000.
Senator Wiley. And when you went in. you had $300,000 in cash?
Mr. DeLlxia. Yes.
Senator Wiley. Where was that stored ?
Mr. DeLucia. I put it away some place.
Senator Wiley. Where ?
Mr. DeLucia. In my house.
Senator Wiley. Do you have special vaults in your house ?
Mr. DeLucia. Xo.
Senator Wiley. How did you accumulate the $300,000.
Mr. DeLucia. Gambling.
Senator Weley. Was it involved in relation to pressure put on the
moving-picture concern ?
Mr. DeLucia. Xo. I never got anything from the movie picture
but jobs.
Senator Wiley. What kind of gambling was it ?
Mr. DeLucia. Hoi-ses, dice, and all that.
Mr. KoBiNsox. Do you have a son-in-law?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. RoBixsox. What business is he in ?
Mr. DeLucia. Electrical business.
Mr. RoBixsox. How much did you put in that business?
Mr. DeLucia. I dicbvt put nothing in it.
Mr. R'jBixsox'. Didn't 3'ou set him up in that business?
Mr. DeLucia. Xo, sir.
Mr. RoBix'sox. How did he finance it ?
Mr. DeLucia. He was in the Army. He had some money saved.
He came out. He didn't have much to invest there anyway.
Mr. RoBiNsox^ You never put any money into that business ?
Mr. DeLucia. Xo, sir.
Mr. RoBixsox'. How much have you had in cash in your home al
anv one time ?
5lr. DeLucia. Well, the most I had was $300,000.
Mr. RoBixsox-^. When did you have that, at the time you went into
the penitentiary ?
Mr. DeLucia. I had that mixed up, you see. I had some in the box
and some at home. When I went away, I took it out of the box and
I put it away.
Mr. RoBixsox. How much have you had in the safe-deposit box in
cash at anv one time ?
Mr. DeLucia. I had $100,000 sometimes.
Mr. RoBixsox'. You never had any more than that ?
Mr. DeLucia. Oh, maybe more. I don't recall those things. That
is a long time ago.
12 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Robinson. How long Rgo 'I
Mr. DeLucia. That is around 1940 or 1941, something like tliat.
Mr. Robinson. Did you have a safe-deposit box during the 1930's?
Mr. DeLucia. I don't remember now how long I got the box. I
think I had it before, around 1938 or 1939, something like that.
Mr. Robinson. Did you know Mr. Dillon before you went into the
penitentiary ?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Robinson. Do you know how he was retained?
Mr. DeLucia. Well, I understand Mrs. Campagna knowed some-
body in St. Louis and she made the connection and Mr. Dillon went
for us. That story is well known.
Mr. Robinson. You had nothing to do with it yourself?
Mr. DeLucia. No, sir ; I paid him after I got out. I paid my share
of $5,000.
Mr. Halley. Does anybody owe you any money today ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes ; the farmer owes me $5,000.
Mr. Halley. Does anybody ow^e you sums in excess of $10,000 ?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Halley. Nobody wdiatsoever?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Senator Wiley. What did you mean by saying that story is well
known, referring to Dillon ?
Mr. DeLucia. It wfjs iuA'estigated hy tlie House committee, and all
that.
Senator Wiley. Do you know the facts ?
Mr. DeLucia. That is all I know.
Mr. Robinson. Do you have any interest in any other business since
you came out of the penitentiary ?
Mr. DeLucia. No, sir.
Mr. Robinson. And you have listed all the stock and all the property
that you had.
Mr. DeLucia. That is right.
Mr, Robinson. What interest did you have prior to the time that you
went to the penitentiary in businesses ?
Mr. DeLucia. No interest whatsoever.
Mr. Robinson. Did you ever have any interest in any gambling
establishments in Chicago ?
Mr. DeLucia. No, sir.
Mr. Robinson. Never at any time ?
Mr. DeLucia. No, sir.
Mr. Robinson. Did you ever receive any revenue or any income from
any gambling establishments?
Mr. DeLucia. No, sir.
Mr. Robinson. You mentioned that you received some money from
gambling.
Ml', DeLucia. Yes, sir ; my own gambling.
Mr. Robinson. How did you receive that?
Mr. DeLucia. I done my own gambling.
Mr. Robinson. Just how ?
Mr. DeLucia. I used to go out to the race track. Somebody wants
to put out a lot of money and somebody wants to bet $10,000 on a horse,
and if he put it in the totalizer, naturally the price go down, so I used
to hold the bet. If I thought it was all right, I hold it.
ORGANIZED CRIME' IN INTEIRSTATE COMMERCE 13
INIr. Robinson. Were you a betting commissioner?
Mv. DeLucia. No ; I was betting for myself.
Mr. Robinson. Where did you place the bets ?
Mr. DeLucia. With myself.
Mr. Robinson. Did you handle bets for anyone else?
Mr. DeLucia. Why, sure. No; what do you mean by anyone else?
You mean they bet with me ? Yes.
Mr. Robinson. Who bet with you ?
Mr. DeLucia. A lot of people bet with me. I don't recall. That is
a long time ago.
Mr. Robinson. Can you recall anyone of the larger bettors with
you?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes ; Al Capone was one.
Mr. Robinson. Who else ?
Mr. DeLucia. I don't know. I didn't have many of those people.
A lot of people would come. There is a lot of touts come around and
make bets.
Mr. Robinson. Is he the only one you can remember ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Did Frank Erickson ever bet with you ?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Halley. Frank Costello ?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Robinson, How^ large a sum would you handle?
Mr. DeLucia. I would handle up to $1,000. You see, Al was a big
bettor. He would bet $10,000 on a race, and $5,000, but he would
spread it around. Sometimes I take a piece, sometimes I don't.
Mr. Robinson. How large a sum would you handle in gambling
over a space of a year ?
Mr. DeLucia. That I wouldn't be able to tell you. Them days are
gone. I just can't remember.
Mr. Robinson. Would it be $2,000 or $100,000 or $50,000 or what?
Mr. DeLucia. You mean in a year?
Mr. Robinson. In a year's time.
Mr. DeLucia. Gee, I don't know. I suppose sometimes I would
make $100,000 a year or something like that, sometimes less.
Senator Wiley. You would make that much clear ?
Mr. DeLucia. Sure.
Mr. Robinson. How much would you handle?
Mr. DeLucia. I wouldn't know. That is a thing that I don't recall.
The Chairman. A million dollars or two million?
Mr. DeLucia. No, not a million dollars. I don't know. I just lost
all track of that stuif. After all, I haven't bothered for the last 7 or 8
years with that stuff.
Mr. Robinson. Would you handle three or four hundred thousand
dollars during the course of a year?
Mr. DeLucia. Between losing and winning, because you lose, too,
you have to think of that.
Mr. Robinson. That is right.
Mr, DeLucia. I don't know.
The Chairman. It goes without saying that if you made
$100,000
Mr. DeLucia. The way I used to do it, I put the money away, and
at the end of the year what I w4n, I win. That is all.
14 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Robinson. Did you receive any other income from anything
else except from gambling?
Mr. DeLucia. No ; that is all I made my money.
Mr. Robinson. Did you ever have any interest in the liquor busi-
ness ?
Mr. DeLucia. No, sir.
Mr. Robinson. In the beer business?
Mr. DeLucia. No, sir.
Mr. Robinson. At no time did you ever have any interest or receive
any income from the sale of liquor or the manufacture of liquor ?
Mr. DeLucia. No, sir.
Senator Wiley. When did you come to this country ?
Mr. DeLucia. 1920.
Senator Wiley. Did you ever have any interest in the white-slave
trade ?
Mr. DeLucia. No, no.
Senator Wiley. Who did you marry ?
Mr. DeLucia. I married a girl, a home girl.
Senator Wiley. An Italian?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Senator Wiley. Born in this country ?
Mr. DeLucia. No, she came here when she was about 6 j^ears old.
Senator Wiley. Are you an American citizen ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Senator Wiley. When did you get your full citizenship papers?
Mr. DeLucia. In 1927 or 1928.
Senator Wiley. When did you start in the gambling business?
Mr. DeLucia. Well, I think it was around, the heavy part was
around 1929 or so, from 1929 on.
Mr. Robinson. Are you a relative of Al Capone?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Robinson. No family relationship ?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Robinson. When did you first come to Chicago ?
Mr. DeLucia. 1920.
Mr. Robinson. T\Tiat were you doing at that time in Chicago ?
Mr. DeLucia. I was working with the Dandy Theater. There
was an Italian theater in the street, and I w^as working there.
Mr. Robinson. Were you a waiter there ?
Mr. DeLucia. No, that was a theater, Italian theater. Then I went
to work at the Belanapoli Restaurant. That is an Italian restaurant.
Mr. Robinson. You were a waiter there ?
Mr. DeLucia. No, I was day manager there.
Mr. Robinson. Where did you work after that ?
Mr. DeLucia. After that I started to make friends and I started
to get in the gambling business.
Mr. Robinson. What friends did you make?
Mr. DeLucia. Well, fellows that gambled.
Mr. Robinson. Name some of them.
Mr. DeLucia. Al used to come there — Al Capone, and Frank Nitti.
Mr. Robinson. Who else?
Mr. DeLucia. Who else ? That is all I can remember.
Mr. Robinson. When did you first make the acquaintance of Nitti?
Mr. DeLucia. About that time.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 15
Mr. KoBiNSON. What year was that?
Mr. DeLucia. 1928 or 1929, something like that.
Mr. Robinson. Did you go to work for Nitti ?
Mr. DeLucia. No ; we were friends.
Mr. Robinson. Were you ever engaged in any activity with Nitti,
business activities ?
Mr. DeLucia. No, sir ; outside of being friends.
Mr. Robinson. Did you ever work for Capone ?
JNIr. DeLucia. No ; I was friends with Capone.
Mr. Robinson. How much were you taking at that time ?
Mr. DeLucia. There you go. You go into this stuff. I would not
be able to tell, I don't remember.
Mr. Robinson. "WTiat was Nitti's business?
Mr. DeLucia. Nitti? Oh, Nitti had money of his own. I don't
know. He was never in need of any money or something like that.
Mr. Robinson. A^Hiere did he get it?
Mr. DeLucia. I don't know.
Mr. Robinson. Were you a very close friend of his ?
Mr. DeLucia. I was a very close friend, I mean close friend, you
know, like you get together.
Mr. Robinson. You say you don't know where he got his money?
Mr. DeLucia. No. Would he tell me ?
Mr. Robinson. You have no knowledge of where Nitti got any of
his money ?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Robinson. Was he associated with Capone?
Mr. DeLucia. He was kind of related to Capone.
Mr. Robinson. What business was Capone in ?
Mr. DeLucia. You know Capone.
]\Ir. Robinson. You tell me.
Mr. DeLucia. I don't know.
Mr. Robinson. AAliat business was he in ?
Mr. DeLucia. I don't know what business he was in. All I know
he was friends with me at the time, but I didn't know his business.
Mr. Robinson. Did you visit back and forth with Capone?
Mr. DeLucla.. Yes ; I used to see him at the track.
Mr. Robinson. And Nitti ?
[Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Robinson. "V\nio were the other friends you made at that time?
Mr. DeLucia. There are so many.
Mr. Robinson. Name some.
Mr. DeLucia. I don't remember. Mv mind is kind of hazy on that
stuff.
Mr. Robinson. Did you meet Campagna at that time.
Mr. DeLucia. No; a little later on.
Mr. Robinson. When did you meet Gioe ?
Mr. DeLucia. He was a boy from the neighborhood. I don't re-
member when. I know a lot of these people.
Mr. Halley. Wlien did you first meet Tony Accardo ?
Mr. DeLucia. He was a boy from the neighborhood too. He is now
my neighbor, a few blocks from me.
Mr. Halley. How long have you known Tony Accardo ?
Mr. DeLucia. Over 10 years, at least.
16 ORGAlSriZED CRIMEi IN IIsTTERSTATE COMMERCE '
Mr. Hallet, Did you see Tony Accardo when he came to jail to
visit?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Halley. That was when he posed as a lawyer?
Mr. DeLucia. That is right.
Mr. Halley. He is a good friend of yours ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Halley. He was trying to work on yonr parole, is that right?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Did you know Charles Fischetti?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Halley. How long?
Mr. DeLucia. I know Charles Fischetti about 20 years or so.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Rocco Fischetti ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Have you known him 20 years, too ?
]\Ir. DeLucia. No ; less than that.
Mr. Halley. Well, about 15 ?
Mr. DeLucia. Maybe, yes.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Ed Vogel ?
Mr. DeLucia. Who ?
Mr. Halley. Ed Vogel.
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Do you know him ?
Mr. DeLucia. I see him.
Mr. Halley. You have known him for many years, haven't you ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Jack Guzik ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Halley. How long?
Mr. DeLucia, For a long time.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Ralph Capone?
]\Ir. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Have you known him for a long time ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Did he bet with you, too ?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Hymie Levine ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Is he a good friend of yours ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes ; but he is sick now. He is paralyzed.
Mr. Halley. How long have you known Levine ?
Mr. DeLucia. About 10 or 12 years or 15 years.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Tony Pisano ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Halley. How long have you known him ?
Mr. DeLucia. About the same time, maybe 15 years.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Murray Humphreys ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes. All these people I know to see them, but I
have never had anything to do with them.
Mr. Halley. But you have known them all for many years.
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Ralph Pearce ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 17
Mr. Halley. Have you known him for many years ?
IMr. DeLucia. I have known Ralph Pearce for 10 or 15 years.
Mr. Halley. How many of those people have you had any kind
of business dealing with?
Mr. DeLucia. I never had any business dealing with any of them.
Mr. Halley. Did any of them bet with you ?
Mr. DeLucia, No, not them,
Mr. Halley. How about Tony Accardo, do you have any business
dealings with him?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
ISIr. Halley. Never at any time ?
Mr. DeLucia. Never,
Mr. Halley. Does that include betting on horse races ?
Mr. DeLucia. No ; he never bet with me.
Mr. Halley. You never had any business dealings with him?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Halley, Do you know Frank Costello ?
Mr. DeLucia, Yes.
Mr. Halley. How long have you known Frank Costello ?
Mr. DeLucia. I have known Frank Costello for a long time. I
haven't seen him for the last 10 or 12 years.
Mv. Halley. How did you happen to meet Frank Costello ?
Mr. DeLucia. I think I met him at the track.
Mr. Halley. What track?
Mr. DeLucia. I think it was the Hawthorne track here in Chicago.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever go out to Sportsman's Park in Chicago?
Mr. DeLucia. I used to ; not now,
Mr. Halley. Do you know Bill Johnston ?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr, Halley. Did you ever know Bill Johnston ?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr, Halley. Do you know who he is ?
Mr, DeLucia. No.
Mr, Halley, Do you know Eddy O'Hare ?
Mr, DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Do you know him?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Do you know John Patton?
Mr, DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Halley. How long have you known John Patton ?
Mr. DeLucia. Oh, I would say at least 20 years,
Mr. Halley. How did you happen to know John Patton ?
Mr. DeLucia. He was around in Florida or some place like that.
Mr, Halley. Where in Florida did you see him, Miami ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Did you know Harry Russell?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Halley. How long?
Mr. DeLucia, Ten or fifteen years,
Mr. Halley. Harry Russell is in the betting business too, isn't he?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes ; I heard that he was.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever place bets with Harry Russell?
Mr, DeLucia, Yes.
18 ORGANIZED CRIMEI IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Halley. Did you place bets with him or he with you?
Mr. DeLucia. He had a commission house at that time.
Mr. Halley. In Chicago?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Wasn't he a partner of Tony Accardo ?
Mr. DeLucia. I don't know.
Mr. Halley. Where was Harry Kussell's commission house ?
Mr. DeLucia. State and Lake Building.
Mr. Halley. When you placed bets with Harry Russell were you
laying off big bets or were you betting for yourself ?
Mr. DeLucia. I was betting for myself.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever lay off with Harry Russell ?
Mr. DeLucia. Well, it depends what you want to call it. I used to
be with him.
Mr. Halley. Did you lay off. You know the difference between
betting for yourself and laying off.
Mr. DeLucia. I don't remember.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever lay off bets with anybody ?
Mr. DeLucia. No; not very often.
Mr. Halley. Ever?
Mr. DeLucia. I don't recall that.
Mr. Halley. Not even once?
Mr. DeLucia. I wouldn't be able to recall that. I don't recall at all.
Mr. Halley. Is it possible?
Mr. DeLucia. Maybe sometime. I wouldn't say that it wasn't.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Joe Adonis ?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Halley. You never met him ?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Meyer Lansky ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Were you ever arrested with Meyer Lansky ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Where?
Mr. DeLucia. He was with Lucky.
Mr. Halley. Lucky Luciano?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Halley. In the Congress Hotel?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Halley. What were you doing there ?
Mr. DeLucia. I was in the lobby and I ran across him.
Mr. Halley. You know Lucky Luciano ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Halley. How long have you known Lucky ?
Mr. DeLucia. I would say about 15 years, or 15 or 16 years, some-
thing like that.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Jack Dragna ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Halley. How long have you known him ?
Mr. DeLucia. I met him in California on one of my trips. I ran
across him in the restaurant.
Mr. Halley. You met Jack Dragna once in your life ?
Mr. DeLucia. Once or twice, something like that.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 19
Mr. Halley. Which is it? You are under oath; let us be accurate.
Mr. DeLucia. Maybe in California once or twice.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever go to his home?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Halley, What restaurant did vou see Jack Dragna in?
Mr. DeLucia. I think it was the Brown Derby. I am not sure.
Mr. Halley. In Los Angeles ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Adamo ? They call him MoMo.
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Halley. You don't know him.
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Big Al Polizzi ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Longy Zwillman ?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever meet Zwillman?
Mr. DeLucia. Who ?
Mr. Halley. Zwillman.
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Little Augie Pisano ?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Halley. Maybe you know him by the name of Anthony
Carfano.
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Halley. You never met Carfano?
Mr. DeLucia. No. You see, all these names you mention, maybe
I see them some day, but I never had anything to do with them.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever meet Little Augie ?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Halley. When you go to Florida, where do you stay?
Mr. DeLucia. I was only 1 year in Florida, 1938. I had a house
there.
Mr. Halley. Where was your house, Miami Beach ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever go to the Sands Hotel ?
IVIr. DeLucia. No.'
Mr. Halley. Did you ever go to Wofford Hotel ?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Tom Cassera ?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Halley. Do you know who he is ?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Fred Angersola ?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Johnny King?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Halley. He is from Cleveland.
Mr. DeLucia. I might have met him. I don't remember. I might
have met him, but I don't know.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Joe Massei ?
Mr. DeLucia. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. From Detroit ?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
20 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Halley. He is in Miami now.
Mr. DeLucia. No, I don't know.
Mr. Halley. Yon never met him ?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Mike Cappolo ?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Halley. Do yon know Tony Civetta?
Mr. DeLucia. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Willie Moretti ?
Mr. DeLucia. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Did you know Bugsy Seigel?
Mr. DeLucia. Bugsy Seigel. I might have seen him at the track
sometime. I never had much to do with him.
Mr. Halley. But you did know him ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Mickey Cohen ?
Mr. DeLucia. No*^.
Mr. Halley. Vincent Mangano?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Halley. He lives in New York.
Mr. Delucia. What is his name ?
Mr. Halley. Mangano.
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Philip Mangano?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Joseph Prof aci ?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever hear of him, Joseph Prof aci?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever meet Joseph Prof aci ?
Mr. DeLucia. No. You see, all these names, I might have seen
them at some time or other, but I didn't have anything to do with
them.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Vito Genovese ?
Mr. DeLucia. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever meet him ?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Willie Moretti ? I think you said you
didn't.
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Michael Morani ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Halley. You know him ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes. He has a restaurant in New York I used to
go to.
Mr. Halley. What restaurant ?
Mr. DeLucia. Somewhere on Fifty-second Street.
-Mr. Halley. What is the name of it?
Mr. DeLucia. Progressivio.
Mr. Halley. On Fifty-sixth Street near Seventh Avenue?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes. They have good food there.
Mr. Halley. Morani owns that ?
Mr. DeLucia. That is ni}^ understanding.
ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 21
•
Mr. Halley. Who did you meet there?
Mr. DeLucia, That is all. I used to go and eat and get out of
there.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Jack Dragna ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever hear of the Italian-American Protective
League (
Mr. DeLucia. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever hear of Unio Siciliano ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes ; but that has been changed to either
Mr. Halley. To the Italo-American Union.
Mr. DeLucia. They changed the title. I was a member there when
I went to the penitentiary. But since then I never paid any of my
dues. That is another insurance I had.
Mr. Halley. What was the Unio Siciliano?
Mr. DeLucia. That was a society.
jSIr. Halley. W^ere you an officer or a member ?
Mr. DeLucia. I was a member.
Mr. Halley. Was that an organization in Chicago that you be-
longed to?
Mr, DeLucia. That is an insurance organization.
Mr. Halley. An insurance organization?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Tell the committee something about it. Is it all over
the country or just in Chicago?
Mr. DeLucia. I think it is only in Chicago.
Mr. Halley. You think it is only in Chicago ?
Mv. DeLucia. I am pretty sure of that.
Mr. Halley. Who else belonged to the union in Chicago?
Mr. DeLucia. When I was there Joe Bulger was the president, Fer-
rata was the secretary and Cocia was somebody else there, he was
treasurer or something like that. I had myself and my whole family
insured there, but I have not paid any more since I came out.
Mr. Halley. Was there a place where you had meetings?
Mr. DeLucia. No ; there is no meeting there.
Mr. Halley. Where were the headquarters of the union?
Mr. DeLucia. I think on Washington Street.
Mr. Halley. Wliat was the address?
Mr. DeLucia. Ill or something like that.
Mr. Halley. Did you belong ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes; but now I don't belong. I haven't paid my
dues.
^Ir. Halley. Did Tony Accardo belong when you belonged ?
Mr. DeLucia. I don't know that.
. Mr. Halley. How much were the dues ?
Mr. DeLucia. A few dollars a month or year.
Mr. Halley. How much?
Mr. DeLucia. I used to pay for everybodv. I think it was about
$100. I don't know, $120 a year.
]Mr. Halley. You mean for everybody in your family?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Did they ever have meetings of the society ?
Mr. DeLucia. I never was to any.
Mr. Halley. You never attended a meeting?
22 ORGANIZED CRLMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. DeLucia. They have a lodge and each lodge once in a while will
have a party or something. That is all.
Mr. Halley. Were there a lot of lodges in Chicago ?
Mr. DeLucia. I don't know. They have about 40 or 50 lodges.
Mr. Halley. Right in Chicago?
Mr. DeLucia. Maybe they have 20. I don't know what they got.
Mr. Halley. Were there lodges in other cities besides Chicago?
Mr. DeLucia. I don't know. I don't think they have them outside
of Chicago.
Mr. Halley. None outside of Chicago ?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Halley. You say it is called the Italo- American Union?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes. That was the old LTnio Siciliano.
Mr. Halley. And it is still there in Chicago ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Halley. And it is still on Washington Street ?
Mr. DeLucia. Well, before they were on State Street, and then the
building was torn down and then it was put down to Washington
Street.
Mr. Halley. Now, what was the name originally, the Union
Mr. DeLucia. Siciliano.
Mr. Halley. It then was changed to the Italo-^\jnerican Union?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Halley. When was the name changed ?
Mr. DeLucia. I wouldn't know how to tell you that.
Mr. Halley. Was it before you went to jail or after ?
Mr. DeLucia. My understanding was that because they call it Unio
Siciliano and nobody else could join but Sicilians, so they figured to
change the name and get everybody else in.
Mr. Halley. But you got out at that time ?
Mr. DeLucia. No, I got in when it was Italo-American Union. I
was a member up to the date I went to jail. Then I didn't pay any
more. I just dropped it.
Mr. Halley. When you joined it, it was called the Italo-American
Union ?
Mr. DeLucia. To my best recollection, yes.
Mr. Halley. When did you join?
Mr. DeLucia. I don't recall.
Mr. Halley. Approximately how long were you a member before
you went to jail?
Mr. DeLucia. I must have been a member 5 or 6 years at least,
Mr. Halley. And it was previous to your becoming a member that
they changed the name ?
Mr. DeLucia. I think when I became a member it was Italo-x\meri-
can Union.
Mr. Halley. How long before that was the name changed ?
Mr. DeLucia. That is a long time. I don't remember that, Mr.
Halley.
Mv. Halley. Would you say sometime in the 1930's ?
Mr. DeLucia. That is a matter of record. You can find out. I
don't know.
Mr. Halley. The records are kept at the office on Washington
Street ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
ORGANIZED CRIME IK INTERSTATE COMMERCE 23
Mr. H ALLEY. Wlio is the president now ?
Mr. DeLucia. Bulger.
Mr Halley. How do you spellit ?
Mv. DeLucia. Joseph I. B-u-1-g-e-r.
Mr. Halley. Who is the treasurer now ?
Mr. DeLucia. I don't know.
Mr. Halley. Why did you get out ?
Mr. DeLucia. I told you. ^Vlien I went to the penitentiary I ]ust
didn't pay any more. Some of these days I might go back.
Mr. Halley. Do you know whether Joseph Fischetti belonged ?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Halley. Do you know whether Rocco Fischetti belonged ?
Mr. DeLucia. No .
Mr. Halley. Did you ever have a list of the members ?
Mr. DeLucl\. No.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever see a list of the members ?
Mr. DeLucl4. No.
Mr. Halley. Now, when you first joined, who talked to you about
joining?
Mr. DeLucia. I think it was Joe that told me to get in, Joe Bulga.
He became the president, or something like that. I am not so sure,
but I think that is what it was.
Mr. Halley. How did you happen to know Bulga ?
Mr. DeLucia. I knew Bulga for many years.
Mr. Halley. I think you said that you knew Tony Capiccio for
many years, too.
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Rocco De Grazio ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Halley. And of course, you know Louis Campagna ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Halley. And of course you know Charles Gioe ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Niccolo Impostato ?
Mr. DeLucia. From Chicago ?
Mr. Halley. Yes.
Mr. DeLucia. No ; I don't know him.
Mr. Halley. You are sure you never heard of him ? Of course you
know Philip D' Andrea ? He went to jail with you on the extortion
case.
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Is it your position that you were not guilty in the
extortion case ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Halley. You never tried to extort money from anybody ?
Mr. DeLucl4. No, sir.
]Mr. Halley. Do you know Sylvester Agolin ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Do you laiow Anthony Antonelli ?
Mr. DeLucia. Who?
Mr. Halley. Antonelli, Tony Antonelli.
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Sam Battaglia?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
24 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE i
Mr. Halley, What were the advantages of joining the Unione
Sicilian©?
Mr. DeLucia. I told you it was just insurance, you know.
Mr. Halley. Did they issue a policy, an insurance policy ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Halley. On your family?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Halley. And you let yours drop ?
Mr. DeLucia. Well, I didn't pay any more.
Mr. Halley. How did you happen to know Dragna all the way out
in California?
Mr. DeLucia. Well, I knew some people in California, and that is
how I met him.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever hear of the Trans- America Wire Service?
Mr. DeLucia. I heard about it.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever have anything to do with it?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Halley. What is the name of the man you had renting your
farm when you were in jail?
Mr. DeLucia. Francis Corri.
Mr. Halley. Did he have anything to do with the Trans- America?
Mr. DeLucia. I don't know.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever hear that he had something to do with it?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
The Chairman. Well, he was one of the founders of the Trans-
America Wire Service.
Mr. DeLucia. Was he?
The Chairman. Was he not one of the founders of it?
Mr. DeLucia. I don't know.
The Chairman. All right. Let me ask just one question: Is this
Unione Siciliano what is known as the Mafia? Was that called the
Mafia?
Mr. DeLucia. No, no.
The Chairman. What is the Mafia ?
Mr. DeLucia. I don't know much about the Mafia beyond the
papers.
The Chairman. Speak out. You have your hand before your
mouth.
Mr. DeLucia. I don't know anything about the Mafia.
The Chairman. What is the Mafia ?
Mr. DeLucia. What you read in the papers is all I know.
The Chairman. Well, is this Unione Siciliano sometimes called
the Mafia? Do you know that, or not?
Mr. DeLucia. No, no ; they never called that the Mafia. That is a
society, to my knowledge.
The Chairman. Was Al Capone a member of the Unione Siciliano ?
Mr. DeLucia. I don't know. I don't think so.
Mr. Robinson. What was Curry's business ?
Mr. DeLucia. What?
Mr. EoBiNSON. James Curry ; what business was he in ?
Mr. DeLucia. Curry is a landowner. He had a farm.
Mr. Robinson. What else do you know about him? What other
business was he in ? Wasn't he in the gambling business ?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
ORGANIZED CRIME' IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 25
Mr. Robinson. Never to your knowledge was he in the gambling
business 'i
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Robinson. What did he do after lie left your place?
Mr. DeLucia. I don't know. I didn't see him any more. I was
told not to see him any more.
]\Ir. Robinson. Who told you that ?
Mr. DeLucia. Oh, my parole man told me. You see, when I came
out, my lease with him expired in March, the next March, you see. So
he said to come there and get his stuff, and he was around, and I was
told that I shouldn't have anything to do Avith him.
Mr. Robinson. Didn't you know that he went into the gambling
business ?
Mr. DeLucia. Xo ; I never saw him any more.
Mr. Robinson. You mentioned a house at ]\Iiami Beach. When
did you acquire that ?
Mr. DeLucia I didn't buy a house at Miami Beach I rented it,
for a year.
Mr. Robinson. Oh, you rented it ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Robinson. Did you receive visits in prison from Bernstein ?
]\Ir. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Robinson. Did he appear alone the first time he visited you?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Robinson. Did you talk to him ?
Mr. DeLucia. Xo; I didn't talk to him.
Mr. Robinson. You didn't talk to liim 'i
My. DeLucia. Xo.
Mr. Robinson. Did he appear again with Accardo?
Mr. DeLucia. That was the reason why Accardo came ; one of the
reasons.
Mr. Robinson. You didn't talk to Bernstein until Accardo came?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
ISIi;. Robinson. Why was that ?
Mr. DeLucia. Because I didn't know Bernstein, and I wasn't going
to talk over any tax matter with him unless I found out what was the
trouble. I didn't know there was any trouble anyway.
So he came over and said things were kind of upset, and all that.
He was a good tax lawyer, and I talked to him.
Mr. Robinson. Had you retained Bernstein ?
Mv. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Robinson. How did 3^011 retain Bernstein ?
Mr. DeLucia. My Mrs. retained Bernstein.
Mr. Robinson. Who?
]Mr. DeLucia, My wife.
Mr. Robinson. And asked Bernstein to go to see you in prison ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
]Mr. Robinson. And you refused to talk to him ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Robinson. Where were you, in prison ?
Mr. DeLucia. In Leavenworth.
Senator Wiley. Were you at any other prison before that ?
68858 — 51— pt. 5- 3
26 ORGANIZED CRIMB IN INTEESTATE COMMERCE
Mr. DeLucia. Yes, in Atlanta.
Senator Wiley. How did you get transferred? Who arranged
for it?
Mr. DeLucia, I don't know. I was just transferred.
Senator Wiley. Did you pay anyone for that transfer ?
Mr. DeLucia. No, sir.
Mr. EoBiNSON. Why did you tell Bernstein you wouldn't talk
to him?
Mr. DeLucia. I didn't want to talk to nobody about my tax. I was
in iail, and I figured I don't care what happens.
Mr. Robinson. Did you tell him to see Accardo?
Mr. DeLucia. No, no. He naturally went. back. He figured he
would get somebody and talk to Paul and make me understand the
seriousness of the affair, and that was all.
Mr. Robinson. That is the reason Accardo came ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Robinson. You didn't tell him to bring Accardo down to vouch
for him?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
The Chairman. What is this story about this fine getting paid, and
he did not know about it ?
Mr. Robinson. You did have some income-tax difficulty at one
time ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Robinson. Do you remember the year ?
Mr. DeLucia. Well, up until 1939, I think, or something like that.
Mr. Robinson. And that was in the process of settlement or nego-
tiation with the Government up until the time you were in prison;
or out of prison ?
Mr. DeLucia. No, that came out of trial. After the sentence they
brought that up, you see. And they wanted to get income tax on
that.
Mr. Robinson. And you had certain penalties to pay?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Robinson. Do you remember how much ?
Mr. DeLucia. No, that is a matter in the Tax Court. That is all
settled there.
Mr. Robinson. How was the payment made?
The Chairman. How much was it? You know about how much
it was. How much did you owe ?
Mr. DeLucia. Oh, I think they charged me $300,000, or something
like that, that I owed them.
Senator Kefauver. And was a settlement agTeed on ?
Mr. DeLucia. The settlement was $40,000 or $50,000 or something
like that.
Senator Wiley. How much?
Mr. DeLucia. $40,000 or $50,000.
Senator Wiley. Who was your lawyer then? Bernstein?
Mr. DeLucia. Bernstein.
Senator Wiley. How much did you pay ?
Mr. DeLucia. Well, my Mrs. gave me some money. I have some
money there that I got when I came out.
ORGANIZED CRIME' IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 27
Mr. Robinson. Did you ever give Bernstein any money to pay that
settlement ?
Mr, DeLucia. No.
Mr. Robinson. Was it paid ?
Mr. DeLucia. It was paid all right. I was in jail. How could
I give it to him ?
J\Ir. Robinson. Did you ever instruct anyone to pay Bernstein
so he could make payment in settlement ?
• Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Robinson. Well, how M-as it paid ?
Mr. DeLucia. Well, somebody, I understand, brought some money
up to Bernstein and said, "Pay this."
Mr. Robinson. How much money did they bring to Bernstein?
Mr. DeLucia. They would bring up $20,000 sometime and $30,000
sometime. I don't know how much it was.
Mr. Robinson. How many people brought it to Bernstein?
Mr. DeLucia. I don't know. I suppose a few people.
Mr. Robinson. Didn't you ever discuss it with Bernstein ?
Mr. DeLucia. I knew, but I don't i-emember now.
Mr. Robinson. Did Bernstein say who brought the money?
Mr. DeLucia. He said how many people were there, and all that.
Mr. Robinson. How many people were there? What did he tell
you i What did Bernstein tell you ?
Mr. DeLucia. He said a few people went over there and brought
him the money. So I don't know how many, three, four, or five. I
don't know.
Mr. Robinson. Did Bernstein tell you who they were?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
^Ir. Robinson. Did you ever find out who they were?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Robinson. Did you ever make any eflfort to find out who they
were ?
Mr. DeLucia. Why, I would be glad to find out who did that for
me.
Mr. Robinson. Did you ever suspect who it was?
:Mr. DeLucia. No, I didn't.
Mr. Robinson. Did you ever suspect that Accardo paid the money?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
The Chairman. How much was this? A hundred thousand dol-
lars? That they left on Bernstein's desk?
Mr. DeLucia. No. I understand it was about $120,000.
Senator Hunt. Let me ask a question. This is a tax payment that
we are speaking about ?
Mr. Robinson. I think, Senator, it was a compromise settlement,
if I recall.
Senator Hunt. That somebody paid in his behalf?
Mr. R(jBiNSON. Yes. Somebody came to Bernstein's office, or several
people, and gave the money to Bernstein.
Senator Hunt. Now, you do not mean to tell us that you do not know
who contributed that money to pay your tax. You are not telling
us that, are you ?
Mr. DeLucia. I will tell you why. Senator. I thought I probably
would find after we came out there wouldn't be so much publicity at-
28 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
taclied to the parole. But all the publicity did come, and it was better
to lose the money, to my way of thinking, than to get the publicity in
the paper and all that.
Senator Hunt. Now, it was either some of your relatives or some
of your business associates?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Senator Hunt. Was it some of your business associates that paid
the money?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Senator Hunt. Now- , Jim Jones who does not know you would not
kick in with $50,000 to pay your taxes.
Mr. DeLucia. I suppose a friend did.
Senator Hunt. You know who it was. Why do you not tell us?
Mr. DeLucia. No, I don't know, Senator.
Senator Wiley. May I also see if w^e have not got confused here ?
There was this trial, and there was the fine.
Mr. DeLucia. The fine was paid.
Senator Wiley. $110,000. Then there was also your tax settlement.
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Senator Wiley. And you are saying to this committee that in the
case of the fine you do not know^ who paid your fine ?
Mr. DeLucia. I know who paid the fine. The fine was $10,000. It
was paid in New York.
Senator Wiley. $110,000?
Mr. DeLucia. No, $10,000. That is a different story. The fine w^as
paid in New York.
Senator Wiley. How much was that?
Mr. DeLucia. $10,000. But the other stuff is the income tax.
Senator Wiley. Who paid that?
Mr. DeLucia. That fine Bulga took care of when we left some money
with him, you see. He was the lawyer on the trial.
The Chairman. Who was that that paid at the trial ?
Mr. DeLucia. Bulga.
The Chairman. That same man who was president of the Italian-
American League ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes. But we gave him the money.
Mr. Robinson. Was he the man Avhose name was used by Accardo?
Mr. DeLucia. That is right.
Mr. Robinson. When he visited you in prison?
Mr. DeLucia. That is right. Their initials were equal; G. O. B;
for one and G. O. B. the other one. That is what it w^as.
Senator Wiley. Was that the one you were talking about, about
only $10,000 fine and 10 years?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Senator Wiley. That was the time you had 10 years, and you had to
pay the $10,000 fine?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes. The tax settlement is different.
Senator Wiley. When you got mixed up with your tax settlement,
you paid how much, approximately?
Mr. DeLucia. I paid $120,000, 1 think.
Senator Wiley. $120,000. And you do not know who paid that?
Mr. DeLucia. No, not yet.
Senator Wiley. What is that?
Mr. DeLucia. Not so far.
ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 29
Senator Hunt. When was that paid? What year?
Mr. DeLucia. I think in '46.
Mr. Robinson. You had the money with which to pay it, yourself.
Mr. Dp:Lucia. No, I won't tell anybody I had the money, to tell you
the truth.
Mr. Robinson. Well, did you have the money, and could you have
paid it yourself ?
Mr. DeLucia. I could have paid it.
Senator Hunt. Have 3^011 reimbursed those people who paid vour
tax ^
Mr. DeLucia. No, sir. Sometime I reimburse. Some day they come
along, and I reimburse.
Senator Wiley. Do 3'ou have any connection with any political fac-
tion in Chicago?
Mr. DeLucia. No, sir.
Senator Wiley. Are you sure? Did you know a Jack Arvey?
Mr. DeLucia. I heard of him.
Senator Wiley. Did you have anything to do with bringing one
way or the other the Italian vote?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Senator Wiley, Did you vote?
Mr. DeLucia. No. How could I vote ?
Senator Wiley. Never did vote ?
Mr. DeLucia. No, sir.
Senator Wiley. Never went to the polls?
Mr. DeLucia. I don't know if I went to the polls before. But not
lately.
Senator Wiley. That is all.
Mr. Robinson, Who took care of your interests while you were
in prison ?
Mr. DeLucia. You mean at the farm ? Corri,
Mr. Robinson. And your other interests ?
Mr. DeLucia. I had no other interests.
Mr. Robinson. Isn't it true that Accardo took care of your interests
while you were in prison ?
Mr. DeLucia. No, no,
Mr. RoBixsoN. Isn't it true that you asked him to look out for
your interests while you were in prison?
Mr. DeLucia, No, sir.
Mr. Robinson. Generally speaking; I don't mean to run the place,
Mr. DeLucia. No, sir.
Mr. Robinson. Why did Accardo come to visit you in prison?
Mr. DeLucia. He was a friend of mine. He was my neighbor, and
he came. And it was a friendly act. That is all,
Mr, Robinson. Didn't he tell you at the time that it was all right
for you to talk to Bernstein ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes, he advised me to talk to Bernstein, or else
tilings was going to be bad, and they were going to charge me a lot
of money, and that way the thing could be settled.
The Chairman, Now, Mr. DeLucia, we do not think you are tell-
ing the truth. We think vou are connnitting perjury about not
knowing who paid that $120'000.
Mr. DeLucia. Oh, I am telling the truth.
30 ORGANIZED CRIMEI IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
The Chairman. I know you do not want to get into any more
trouble. You had better come clean if you know who paid it.
Mr. DeLucia. I don't know who paid that money, Senator. Truth-
fully, I don't know.
The Chairman. You do not have any idea who paid it?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
The Chairman. Remember ; you are under oath.
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
The Chairman. And $120,000 got laid on Mr. Bernstein's de.sk in
cash.
Mr. DeLucia. That is what Bernstein said. I was in jail at that
time. Senator.
The Chairman. He has not told you who it was that put the
money there?
Mr. DeLucia. He says he doesn't know himself.
The Chairman. He says he does not know himself?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Senator Hunt. How did he laiow what the money was for ?
Mr. DeLucia. Well, this money was Paul, and this money was
Louie, the note said.
Senator Hunt. Was it typewritten, or handwritten ?
Mr. DeLucia. I wasn't there. Senator. I don't know.
Mr. Robinson. Let me ask you this: Did Bernstein talk to you
before he paid the money ?
Mr. DeLucia, Oh, Bernstein came there several times.
Mr. Robinson. Did Bernstein come to you and state that this
money had been left with him, and ask if he should use it for pay-
ment of the tax ?
Mr. DeLucia. No, when he came back he said, "The money is all
paid. The bill is all settled."
Mr. Robinson. But he never asked you whether it was all right
with you to use that money to pay the tax ?
Mr. DeLucia. No, because the way it happened, he got the money
today, and tomorrow he would pay. He wasn't going to keep the
money around him.
Senator Wiley. Did you ask Bernstein who put up the money?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes, he said he didn't know.
Senator Wiley. Have you any idea who would advance that
amount of money ?
Mr. DeLucia. No, sir.
Senator Wiley. Did you have friends ?
Mr. DeLucia. Oh, yes.
Senator Wiley. Let us get at that. Who are your friends that can
put up $120,000 and never even tell you that they have done so ?
Mr. DeLucia. I will do the same thing for somebody in jail tomor-
row, if it is my friend, Senator.
Senator Wiley. You would ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
The Chairman. But the question is, Wlio are your friends that
would do that ?
Mr. DeLucia. Well, any friend that I think deserved it, I would
do it for. I would even sell my house.
Senator Wiley. What influential friends did you have at that time
or have you got that would raise $120,000 and plunk it down without
ORG.\NIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 31
askin<r an accounting from you or an lOU? Did you give anyone a
note for it ?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Senator Wiley. Did you not think that was a queer circumstance,
that some one should put down $120,000 ?
Mr. DeLucia. I know, Senator. But that is how it happened. ^
Senator Wiley. Did you have any connection with any organization
that you had a hold on ?
Mr. DeLucia. No, sir.
Senator Wiley. You mean to say that out of the clear sky this hap-
pened and no one owed you an obligation or no one was fearful of you,
that would come in and plunk down $120,000?
Mr. DeLucia. That is how it happened, Senator.
Senator Wiley. After you found out, did you not snoop around and
try to find out ?
Mr. DeLucia. I am still trying now.
Senator Wiley. You are still trying?
]Mr. DdLucia. Yes. . ^i . c
Senator Wiley. Do you know any of the big shots m Chicago i
Mv. DeLucia. I don't know what you mean by big shots.
Senator Wiley. Any of the influential politicians, one way or an-
other, on either side ?
Mr. DeLucia. I don't mix with politics.
Senator Wiley. What is that?
Mr. DeLucia. I don't mix with politics.
Senator Wiley. Well, when you were talking a little while ago
about the national bank, did you mean the Forest Park National Bank ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes. That was when I started. Then I changed it
to the Northland Trust.
Mr. Robinson. Who was Mr. Felicio ?
Mr. DeLucia. He is my neighbor.
Mr. Robinson. What business is he in?
Mr. DeLucia. He has liquor stores.
Mr. Robinson. Do jou have any interest in those stores?
Mr. DeLucia. No, sir.
Mr Robinson. How large a home does he have ?
Mr. DeLucia. Oh, he has a home about as big as mine, or something
similar to mine. x^i i _9
Mr. Robinson. Has he been involved m violations ot the law «
Mr. DeLucia. Not that I know of.
Mr. Robinson. Who have some of your associates been since you
got out on parole ? ^ n e • i.
Mr. DeLucia. Well, since I got out on parole, all of my associates
have been my relations. My wife has four or five brothers. And I
have been at the farm. That is about all.
Mr. Robinson. Did Accardo visit you at the farm?
Mr. DeLucia. Wlio ?
Mr. Robinson. Accardo.
Mr. DeLucia. No, sir.
Mr. Robinson. Did you talk to him on the phone?
Mr. DeLucia. No, sir. , . • -u
Mr. Robinson. You have never seen or talked to him since you have
been on parole?
32 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. DeLucia. Let me explain that about "on the phone." My boy
and his boy ^o to the same schooL Maybe you have some call from my
liouse to his house. That is the boys' calling. I have nothing to do
with it. And I can stop the boy.
Mr. EoBiNSON. Have you ever talked to Accardo on the phone at any
time ?
Mr. DeLucia. No. I saw him at the trial. That is all.
Mr. Robinson. I mean since you have been out on parole.
Mr. DeLucia. No, no.
Mr. Robinson. All right. Who else have you seen?
Mr. DeLucia. That is all.
Mr. Robinson. Who has been out to your house in the last few
days ?
^Ir. DeLucia. Well, nobody has been out to my house. I have been
at the farm.
Mr. Robinson. You have had no visits from anj^one in the last few
days ?
Mr. DeLucia. No. I was at the farm. No one outside the f ajiiilies.
Mr. Robinson. At the farm?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Robinson. Who has been there to see you in the last few days?
Mr. DeLucia. Nobody that amounts to anything. My brother-in-
law and some friends, lady friends; that is all.
Senator Wiley. Lady friends, you say?
Mr. DeLucia. I mean lady friends of my wife.
Mr. Halley. I have been looking at your income tax returns, Mr.
DeLucia. I gather that in 19J:9 you lost money on your farm. Is
that right ?
Mr. DeLucia. Why. sure. I lost money every year.
Mr. Halley. And the farm is the only business you have ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Halle. Is that correct ?
Mr, DeLucia, Yes,
Mr. Halle. Have you put up that farm for sale ?
Mr. DeLucia. No. I don't want to i)ut up that farm for sale
unless I have to. You see, I inquired around, but the farm is too big
to sell. It would be five or six hundred thousand dollars. I will tell
you this much. If next year — with all this improvement, now, I think
I should start to make money now, you see. But if I don't, I will
split the farm up and try to sell it.
Mr. Halley, The fact is that up to this time you have had no income
from the farm ?
Mr. DeLucia. Well, I have s})ent money on improvements, you see.
Mr. Halley. You have spent more than you have made?
Mr. DeLucia. I built a barn there, and all that,
Mr. Halley. And you still have a large house in River Forest : is
that right? '
Ml'. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Haixey. What did you pay for that house ?
Mr. DeLucia. $25,000.
Mr. Halley. What would vou say its value is today ?
Mr. DeLucia. Oh, about $100,000.
Mr. Halley. And you have another country place; is that rioht?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes ; in Lone: Beach. *
ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 33
Mr. Halley. And what would you say your annual living expenses
are. with all these expensive homes you maintain?
]\Ir. DfXucia. About a couple of thousand dollars a month.
IVIr. Halley. About a couple of thousand dollars a month. You are
not beginning to worry about the fact that your assets are going down,
are yon ?
Mr. DeLucl\. I am. I tried to sell my house on Long Beach, and I
couldn't sell it, and I think next year, if I can't make it up, I will
sell my farm.
Mr. Halley. But you haven't begun economizing at all, have you?
Mr. DeLucia. I will. I will start to do the best I can from now on,
on that. I won't have to economize any more, because there won't be
much expense at the farm. I have those bulldozers, and I can made 30
or 40 thousands dollars a year at the farm.
Mr. Halley. You made $42,000 last year, didn't you ?
]Mr. DeLucia. Yes. And everything is built now.
Mr. Haixey. You can't take off what you built on your depreciation.
You were spending capital, weren't you ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Now you capital is down to about $40,000 in cash?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mv. Halley. And you say you have about $11,000 in stock?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Halley. And how much in the bank ?
Air. DeLucia. Oh, about a thousand dollars in the bank.
Mr. Halley. A thousand dollars in the bank?
Mr. DeLucia. Or something like that.
Mr. Halley. What is troubling me is that you are not acting like
a man who is down to your last $50,000. I notice by your books that
you bought a Cadillac last month.
Mr. DeLucia. If you see the book, you will notice I sold my other
Cadillac.
Mr. Halley. And you paid something over $4,000 for a new one?
Mr. DeLucia. You see, a car lasts me about 3 years, 3 or 4 years.
]VIr. Halley. Who drives your car?
IVIr, DeLucia. Myself.
Mr. Halley. How many people do you have on j^our payroll at the
farm?
Mr. DeLucia. Over there you have them all.
Mr. Halley. What is your recollection ?
Mr. DeLucia. Well, in the wintertime you can get along with three
or four. In the summertime, during the hay season and during the
summer generally, five or six, just for a few days or for a few weeks.
Senator Wiley. I might say for the record, here, that his 1950 state-
ment shows assets of $390,000, and he has here notes payable of $625,
mortgage payable of $10,000, loan payable, mortgage. Long Beach
property, $40,000, and mortgage payable, Prudential Insurance Co. of
America, $84,000. That seems to be all that you owe, there, I take it.
And it is interesting to note that he lists his land at $18,000. He built
a new barn for $81,000.
AVhat year did you build that ?
Mr. DeLucia. i948, 1 think.
34 ORGANIZED CRIME' IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Senator Wiley. You built an $81,000 barn in 1948. Was that the
time you took the mortgage in the Prudential Co. ?
Mr. DeLucia. No ; that was when I bought that
Senator Wiley. When you got tractors, wagons, implements, ma-
chinery, for $44,000 ? ' to 5 r , O'
Mr. DeLucia. You see, that is a big farm, Senator. It takes a lot
of equipment, and all that.
Mr, Robinson. Did you know John Rosselli ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Robinson. How long have you known him ?
Mr. DeLucia. Oh, I would say about 15 or 16 years.
Mr. Robinson. What business is he in ?
Mr. DeLucl^. I don't know what business he is in.
Mr. Robinson. You have never found out what business he is in?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Robinson. And you never knew what business he was in?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. R0BIN8ON. What was your association with him ?
Mr. DeLucia. I knew Johnny in Chicago a couple of times, and
that was all. I knew he was in California, and that was all
Mr. Robinson. When did you first meet Nitti ?
Mr. DeLucia. I don't remember, Senator. It was in the twenties
Mr. Robinson. Weren't you working as a waiter at the time?
Mr. DeLucia. No; I never worked as a waiter. If you want to
Vr^ ^^ ^°^' waiter, that is all right. I was manager at that time.
Mr. Robinson. You were manager of the restaurant?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Robinson. And it was at that time that you met Nitti «
Mr. DeLucia. No; I think I met Nitti when'l had a restaurant of
my own.
Mr. Robinson. Well, anyway, did Nitti get a job for you at the
Lexington Hotel?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Robinson. Did you ever have any job at the Lexington Hotel?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Robinson. Did you ever live at the Lexington Hotel ?
Mr. DeLucia. I was there.
Mr. Robinson. Who else lived at the Lexington Hotel ?
Mr. DeLucia. A1 was living there ?
Mr. Robinson. Was Nitti living there?
Mr. DeLucia. No, I think he had a home.
Mr. Robinson. You can't remember anyone else except Al Capone
who lived at the Lexington Hotel ?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Robinson. Did you visit frequently with Nitti and Al Capone I
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Robinson. Did you work for them in any way? Did you do
any jobs for them?
Mr. DeLucia. I never worked for them.
Mr. Robinson. You knew what business they were in?
Mr. DeLucia. Oh, I know the business. My idea of business with
them was to try to make some money. That is all.
Mr. Robinson. Tell me how?
Mr. DeLucia. Their business was theirs, and not mine.
ORGANIZED CRIMEA IN INTERSTATE COMMENCE 35
Mr. KoBiNSON. Go ahead and describe how you made the money.
Mr. DeLucia. By gambling. ^ -...-,.■, v u • a
Mr. RoBiNSOX. And you had nothing to do with the liquor business i
Mr. DeLucia. No. x xv 4.
Mr. KoBiNSON. Weren't they in the illegal liquor business at that
time?
Mr. DeLucia. Oh, I suppose ; yes.
Mr. Robinson. You know that, don't you?
Mr. DeLucia. No; I don't know anything about that, ihey didn t
go ahead and tell me what they were doing.
Mr. Robinson. They never mentioned anything to you about what
they were doing? , -, ^ , xv
Mr. DeLucia. No. Senator. I never asked for those things.
Mr. Robinson. But you were frequently associated with them ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes. .
Mr. Robinson. Thev never talked about their business to you?
Mr. DeLucia. No, sn- ; not that kind of business.
Mr. Robinson. Well, what kind of business did they talk about?
Mr. DeLucia. Well, the gambling, you see; the horses and all that
stuff : baseball and all that.
Mr. Robinson. You never got a cut of the liquor business?
Mr. DeLucia. No, sir.
Mr. Robinson. None whatsoever?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Robinson. What was your income from 1940 to 1943 i Can you
recall?
Mr. DeLucia. Oh, very small. You mean, 1940 to 1943?
Mr. Robinson. That is right.
Mr. DeLucia. Oh. I thought you meant 1943 to 1947. I would say
about $300,000.
Mr. Robinson. That was your net income ?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
:Mr. Robinson. What was your net income ? Can you recall approx-
imately what your net income was, from 1940 to 1943, annually?
Mr. DeLucia. I don't recall that. It is all a matter of fact. You
can see it.
Mr. Halley. Was it over $50,000 a year?
Mr. DeLucia. I don't recall that, Mr. Halley.
Mr. HALLET.,Well, you would know whether it was more than
$50,000 or less than $50,000 a year. In what range was it ?
Mr. DeLucia. I wouldn't be able to tell.
Mr. Halley. Well, you can tell. Were you a $10,000-a-y6ar man,
or a $50,000-a-year man. or a $100,000-a-year man?
]Mr. DeLucia. No. I had a lot of expenses in those years, too.
The Chairman. What expenses ?
Mr. Halley. How did you have expense ? Wliat expense did you
have?
Mr. DeLucia. Oh, expense all around, I suppose, I don't remember.
If I had those papers, I could tell.
Mr. Halley. You mean you lived well.
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Halley. But that is part of your income.
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
36 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Halley. Would you say you spent over $50,000 a year ?
Mr. DeLucia. Oh, sure, I did.
Mr. Hallet. Then you must have earned over $50,000.
Mr. DeLucia. Oh, sure.
The Chairman. He said he earned $300,000 those 3 years.
Mr. DeLucia. Around that, or maybe TO. That is the best of my
recollection. I don't know for sure.
Senator Wiley. What years was it that you paid the tax penalty
for ? What years were those ?
Mr. DeLucia. '46.
Senator Wiley. Just 1 year ?
Mr. DeLucia. Oh, you mean what year that was? No: that was
back in '39.
Senator Wiley. 1939 to what ?
Mr. DeLucia. Well, '34 to '39. I don't recall it.
Senator Wiley. Let's get that. So, when the $120,000 was paid,
that paid the tax penalties accumulated
Mr. DeLucia. The $100,000 was between me and Campagna.
Senator Wiley. Was that what it was ?
Mr. DeLucia. BetAveen me and Campagna. That was the settle-
ment for both of us.
The Chairman. You say that also settled Louie Campagna's tax
case ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Senator Wiley. What I was more interested in was this fact. You
settled your taxes up then to '39 ?
Mr. DeLucia. To '43.
Senator Wiley. Well, let's get it. From '39 to '43 ?
Mr. DeLucia. Up to '43 everything is settled.
Senator Wiley. You are sure of that ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes, sir.
Senator Wiley. That is what that $120,000 is for?
Mr. DeLucia. That is right, for me and Campagna.
Senator Wiley. All right. Now, when you came out of prison on
your parole, how much cash did you have?
Mr. DeLucia. $300,000.
Senator Wiley. You had $300,000 ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Senator Wiley. And you had that in your home?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes. '
Senator Wiley. Have you a statement any ijlace showing what your
assets were then ? ^ i & j
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Senator Wiley. Why not?
Mr. DeLucia. A^lio would I have to show it to? Nobody asked
me for it.
Senator Wiley. No; I am asking you. This doesn't show. If this
particular book would show your assets from yeai- to year, if we started
at the time you came out in '43, it should show, if what you say is true,
as you liave set it up here, what constitutes your estate.
Mr. DeLucia. Well, you know now.
Senator Wiley. I know now, sure.
JNIr. DeLucia. I don't think anybody is going to tell anybody how
much money he has got, Senator. ^
I ^' ORGANIZED CRIME' IX INTERSTATE COJVIMERCE 37
Senator Wiley. Have you any statement to show what became of
that $300,000 >
Mr. DeLucia. That is there.
Senator Wiley. Can you break it down for lis? n i ^
Mr. DeLucia. There it is. It is all broke down. 1 ou can tell what
I have got. I use some of the money in there.
Senator Wiley. Then if we start in whh cash on hand m 194 <, you
have i<^:300.000, plus vour earninos from the farm, plus your earnings
from ihe bank stock. That constitutes your total income i
Mr. DeLucia. That is right.
Senator Wiley. xVll right. Now, you say it costs you $2,000 a
month to live, for your family at least. „ . . i .. ^i .
Mr. DeLucia. Approximately that. Over all it is less than that.
But I would put it at $2,000. , ti
Senator Wiley. All right. Now. then, what other disbursements
have you made out of that $300,000 for capital investment since 194 < i
Mr'. DeLucia. Nothing else.
Senator Wiley. No, no. You do not get me. As I understood you
to say, vou built that big barn back there before 194:7 ?
Mr. DeLucia. In '48. How could I build it before '4< ? I came
out in '4T. o -, ^ • 1 i- -c ^1
Senator Wiley. Then the cost of the barn was paid out ol the
$300,000^
Mr. DeLucia. Yes. ,. t, . tt
Senator Wiley. All right. What other big disbursement did you
make out of that $300,000 ? . ^ „ i . -d .
Mr. DeLucia. Well, I bought the machinery rig, and all that. But
I pay that in a year on a monthly loan. i . .
Senator Wiley. Did you make any substantial loan from anybody i
Mr. DeLucia. Oh, yes.
Senator Wiley. Who ? ^ i <• i
Mr. DeLucia. I have a mortgage on the farm, on the farm and
on the house.
Senator Wiley. You borrowed that money, then, too i
Mr. DeLucia. I borrowed it, yes.
Senator Wiley. Well, if you had the $300,000, why did you bor-
row that money?
Mr. DeLucia. Because, Senator, I have a long time to go. 1 have
3 more years to go on parole. And at the rate I am going, I have
to come'out some time and borrow money. So I might as well pre-
T)are myself. . i • tj- u
• Senator Wiley. What I am trying to find out is this. It you bor-
rowed that money, it could easily be ascertained when that was insti-
tuted. That $84,000 is one. That is the large one. And $40,000
is the other. If you borrowed that since 1947, you came out m '47
with $300,000 in cash. Just why would anybody want to borrow
all this money, if you had the money on hand ?
:Mr. DeLucia. "^Because I have 6 years to go, Senator, and at the
rate I am going, I am not going to make it. And I can see now that
next year I may have to sell the farm.
Senator Wiley. Well, you were telling us that you made $40,000
a year otf of the farm, and that you used some of that money.
■^IVIr. DeLucia. Well, this year looks bad. The corn looks bad.
38 ORGANIZED CRIMEl EST INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Senator Wiley. I agree with the chairman that some of your testi-
mony does not make sense. I do not want to prejudge anybody.
Mr. DeLucia. Well, I tell you the truth the best I know how,
Senator.
Mr. Robinson. Do you know James Missio ?
Mr. DeLucia. Wlio?
Mr. Robinson. Missio, Missio — M-i-s-s-i-o.
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Robinson. Never heard of him ?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Robinson. Do you know Steve Cif oni ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Robinson. Who is he ?
Mr. DeLucia. Oh, he died about 10 years ago.
Mr. Robinson. About how long did you know him ?
Mr. DeLucia. He was my neighbor. He had a house next to me at
Long Beach.
Mr. Robinson. And was he an associate of Al Capone ?
Mr. DeLucia. I don't know. He knew him.
Senator Wiley. How long has Bernstein kept your books for you ?
How many years ?
Mr. DeLucia. Well, since he took over, I suppose around '45 or '46.
Senator Wiley. All right. In '48, he started to set up each year a
balance sheet, I take it, just like this has been set up ?
Mr. DeLucia. That is right.
Senator Wiley. And you claim that you have not got those '45, '46,
'47, '48
Mr. DeLucia. There isn't much in '49.
Senator Wiley. Now, just a minute. You have not got those bal-
ance sheets any place?
Mr. DeLucia. No. You know, Senator, I don't even know if I
destroyed it all. I went to look all over, yesterday, to see if I could
find it, and I couldn't find it any place.
Senator Wiley. Well, I think you have another tax case here to be
looked into, very definitely. I do not think you want your com-
promises around-
If they owe a lot of money they can get rid of it. What did they
claim, that you and the other chap owed $350,000 ? How much did
you settle your judgment for ?
Mr. DeLucia. About $50,000.
Senator Wiley. How much was the judgment?
Mr. DeLucia. I think the judgment was aromid $280,000, or some-
thing like that.
Senator Wiley. Well, there you have got it.
Mr. Robinson. How long did you say you knew Cifoni ?
Mr. DeLucia. Oh, I knew Cifoni for quite a while.
Mr. Robinson. And what did he do in Cicero ? What was his work
in Cicero ?
Mr. DeLucia. I don't know what he was doing in Cicero.
Mr. Robinson. Didn't he have charge of the alcohol cookers in
Cicero for Capone ?
Mr. DeLucia. Not to my knowledge.
ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 39
Mr. Robinson. Did you ever hear of it?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Robinson. Did you ever hear rumors about it?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Robinson. Did he work for you after repeal ?
Mr. DeLucia. No. He never worked for me before.
Mr. Robinson. He never worked for you ?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Robinson. Was he associated with the elevators union?
Mr. DeLucia. I don't know anything about that.
Mr, Robinson. You don't know whether he was ever associated
with them ?
Mr. DeLucia. I don't know.
Mr. Robinson. What happened to him?
Mr. DeLucia. He got killed.
Mr. Robinson. How?
Mr. DeLucia. I don't know.
Mr. Robinson. Do you know Aiuppa ?
Mr. DeLucia. I think I do, but not to any extent.
Mr. Robinson. What does he do?
Mr. DeLucia. I don't know. I just know him by sight.
Mr. Robinson. Is he a friend of Campagna's ?
Mr. DeLucia. I don't know.
Mr, Robinson, Wasn't he put into the bartenders' union by you and
Campagna ?
Mr. DeLucia. No, no.
Mr. Robinson. Do you know Claude Maddox?
Mr. DeLucia. I might have seen him some place, but I never had
anything to do with him.
Mr. Robinson. You know him?
Mr, DeLucia. I know him.
Mr, Robinson. How long have you known him ?
Mr, DeLucia. Oh, I don't know. It might have been some time, but
I never had anything to do with him. I know a lot of people, and I
am not denying it. So I am just telling you the best I kiiow how.
That doesn't mean that I ever did anything with them.
Mr. Robinson. Have you talked to Campagna and Gioe about your
appearance here ?
Mr, DeLucia. No. We met when we was in court. What was it?
The 5th. We met in court, and then we were told about your sub-
pena, and all that, and he went back, and we were told to come over
here. And last night I got in a plane, and I met Louie at the station.
He was getting off another plane. We met this morning. We went
to the parole officer. We went up there. He worked there, and I got
there first, and he got there. He saw Mr. Ower, and from there I came
here by myself, and we met over here.
IMr. Robinson. You met at the plane last night ?
Mr. DeLucia. No, at the station, where we were getting the bag-
gage. I took one plane, and he took another plane.
Mr. Robinson. Were you ever in partnership with Russell?
Mr. DeLucia, No.
Mr. Robinson. You were never in partnership with Russell at any
time or place in Chicago ?
Mr. DeLucia. No. No.
40 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Robinson. Do you know James Raoen { Did you know James
Ragen ?
Mr. DeLucia. I don't think — I think I saw him once in Florida.
Mr. Robinson. Did you meet him in Chicago?
Mr. DeLucia. No. I don't know ; maybe I did. But I don't recall
any instance.
Mr. Robinson. Do you know what business he was in ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes; he was in the wire affair.
Mr. Robinson. The wire service business ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Robinson. Did you know Patrick Burns?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
]Mr. Robinson. Never heard of him?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Robinson. Do you know anyone by the name of McBride?
Mr. DeLucia. No. "
Mr. Robinson. In Cleveland? You never have met him?
Mr. DeLucia. I might have met him, but I don't recall it.
Mr. Ror.iNsoN. Do you know any other people connected with the
w^ire service ?
Wv. DeLucia. No, sir.
Mr. Robinson. Do you know Levin, Hymie Levin, or Levine?
Mr. DeLucia. Hymie Levine, yes.
Mr. Robinson. Do you know whether he was connected with the
wire service ?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Robinson. What business was he in?
Mr. DeLucia. Oh, Hymie Levine was in the gambling business, too.
Mr. Robinson. What type of gambling business w^as he in ?
Mr. DeLucia. He had a booth or something. I don't know.
Mr. Robinson. Wasn't he also in the wire service business?
Mr. DeLucia. I don't know that.
Mr. Robinson. Did you ever hear of the R. & H. Publishing Co.?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Robinson. Do you know Roy Jones?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Robinson. Do you know^ George Kelly ?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Robinson. Do you know any of the Kellys in the wire service
business ?
]Mr. DeLucia. I know Tom Kelly, the restaurant man. I don't
know whether he is mixed up with that or not. That is all I know.
Mr. Robinson. During the time from '40 to 'iS, you were in the
gambling business; is that right?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Robinson. What type of books did you keep ?
Mr. DeLucia, Well, my books was like — at the end of the year what
I find over, that is what I have.
Mr. Robinson. Wasn't everything handled on a cash basis?
Mr. DeLucia. A cash basis, yes.
Mr. Robinson. You kept no records at all?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes. No records.
Mr. Robinson. And didn't you also handle all your other business
on a cash basis ?
ORGANIZED CRIME' IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 41
Mr. DeLucia. That is right.
]\Ir. Robinson. You never used a banking account or used checks
iitall?
^ Mr. DeLucia. No. I put money in the bank,
Mr. Robinson. You never paid any bills by check?
Mr. DeLucia. Oh, yes.
Mr. Robinson. Did you ever handle any bets from people outside
of Chicago?
Mr. DeLucia. Xo.
Mr. Robinson. Did you ever lay off any bets with anyone -outside
of Chicago?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
^Ir. Robinson. Have you ever heard yourself described as being
a member of the Capone syndicate i
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Robinson. How did that come about?
]\Ir. DeLucia. The newspapers.
Mr. RoBiNSt)N. Were you ever a member of that group ?
Mr. Dp:Lucia. No, sir.
Mr. Robinson. Isn't it true that you were intimately associated
vcith Nitti and Capone?
Mr. DeLucia. No; I was friendly, but not intimately associated.
Mr. Rt)BiNSON. Just what was the extent of your being friendly
with him ? Was it purely social ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes. Well, I told you. Al used to bet with me.
Like he was in the box at the race track, and he would say, "I will
bet you so much on this and that." If I wanted to, I would; and,
if not, I wouldn't take it.
Mr. Robinson. That was your only association with Capone?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Robinson. You had no interest in the liquor business or any
other business that Capone had or Nitti had?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Halley. Who is Hugo Bennett ?
Mr. DeLucia. He is a bookkeeper for the Sportsman's track.
Mr. Halley. And did you have any financial transactions with
him ^
Mr. DeLucia. Yes ; he made me a mortgage for $40,000.
]Mr. Halley. On what?
Mr. DeLl'cia. On my house at Long Beach. And recently he gave
me a mortgage foi- $40,000 on my farm.
Mr. Halley. How much do you owe Hugo Bennett now?
Mr. DeLucia. $80,000.
Mr. Halley. $80,000?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Is that the money at Sportsman's Park, or his own
personal money?
Mr. DeLucia. That is his own money.
Mr. Halley. How long have you known Hugo Bennett?
Mr. DeLucia. I knew him for a long time. I knew his father. I
knew him when he was going to school.
Mr. Halley. You knew him and John Patton together, I suppose?
68958— 51— pt. 5 4
42 ORGANIZED CRIME' IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. DeLucia. No ; I didn't know him and John, I know they are
friends.
Mr. Hallet. Do you ever go out to Sportsman's Park ?
Mr. DeLucia. No. I could go, but I never did,
Mr. Hallet. Have you ever gone?
Mr. DeLucia. No ; I never did.
Mr. Hallet. When did you meet Bennett to talk about the mort-
gage?
Mr. DeLucia. I called him, over at the house.
Mr. Hallet. How did you know that Bennett would have $80,000 ?
Mr. DeLuclv. I asked him if I could borrow some money, and he
said "Yes."
Mr. Hallet. Why did you pick Bennett ?
Mr. DeLucia. Well, because I know he is well off. I can't go. you
know, to everj^body for money. I can't go to the bank and borrow
money.
Mr. Hallet. Bennett works for Bill Johnston ; doesn't he ?
Mr. DeLucia. I don't know.
Mr. Hallet. Well, Johnston is the head of Sportsman's Park;
isn't he?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes, But he is in Florida, too, Bennett is. He lives
in Florida.
Mr. Hali^t. And so is Johnston. They are together in the dog
tracks, too.
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Hallet. Did you ever have an interest in any of the dog
tracks ?
Mr. DeLucia. No, sir.
Mr. Hallet. Did you ever own any stock in any dog track?
Mr. DeLucia. No, sir.
Mr. Hallet. Or in any race track ?
Mr. DeLucia. No, sir.
Mr. Hallet. What other financial dealings did you ever have with
Hugo Bennett?
Mr. DeLucia. That is all.
Mr. Hallet. None jirior to that ? Well, why did you pick Bennett,
aside from anyone else, to borrow $80,000 from ?
Mr. DeLucia. Well, I just asked him. I said, "How can I get this ?"
And he said, "I will do it for you."
Mr. Hallet. Why did you ask Bennett? Why didn't you go to a
bank? Your property had value. You could have got a mortgage
from a bank.
Mr. DeLucia. I couldn't have gotten any money from a bank.
There is a law that once you have a first mortgage you can't get another
mortgage. I went through all tliat. I tried.
Mr. Hallet, Did you give Bennett second mortgages ?
Mr, DeLucia, Yes,
Mr, Hallet. And he holds them today ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes. He has a first mortgage on the house at Long
Beach, though. The house at Long Beach was clear.
Mr. Hallet. How^ much was that mortgage ?
Mr. DeLucia. $40,000.
Mr. Hallet. And another $40,000 on the farm?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMEECE 43
Mr. Halley. Have you ever bank i*olled any gambling house?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever lend anybody any money for the bank
rolling of a gambling house ?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever have any interest in any gambling house?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever have any interest in a crap game?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Halley. Or in a dice game ?
Mr. DeLucia. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. At no time ?
Mr. DeLucia. At no time.
Mr. Halley. What interest do you pay Bennett?
Mr. DeLucia. Oh, I don't know what it is, 4 percent or 6 percent.
I don't know.
Mr. Halley. Did you pay any of the principal back?
Mr. DeLucia. No; I have an understand that in 5 years I pay
interest.
Mr. Halley. You mean right now you pay nothing?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Halley. No interest and no principal ?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Halley. That is a nice mortgage; isn't it?
Mr. DeLucia. Well, he is a friend of mine. I can't go to the bank.
It is a friendly transaction.
Mr. Hali^y. You still have not explained how you became a friend
of Hugo Bennett's.
Mr. DeLucia. I told you, I know his fatlier. I know his whole
family. I know his brother.
Mr. Halley. How did you get to know his family ?
Mr. DeLucia. Well, I know his brother. Patsy is dead now. We
were kind of friendly. He was coming over to the house all the
time. That is how I got to know the family.
Mr. Halley. They were part of the Capone mob; weren't they?
Mr. DeLucia. No ; they weren't.
Mr. Halley. They were friendly with Capone; weren't they?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Halley. They didn't know Capone?
Mr. DeLucia. I suppose they did ; yes.
Mr. Halley. Let's stop the nonsense. They knew Capone; didn't
they?
Mr. DeLucia. No; because this boy came up at the time Capone
was in jail.
Mr. Halley. We are talking about his father, that you knew.
Mr. DeLucia. His father is a painter.
Mr. Halley. A painter ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes. There is nothing wrong about that. I bought
a painting from him that he made at the house.
Mr. Halley. And how did you get to know his father?
Mr. DeLucia. Because I knew him a long time, and I knew his
brother Patsy very well.
Mr. Halley. How did you get to know them?
44 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. DeLucia. How do you aet to know people ? It is just a friendly
affair, people that you know for a Ion*;' time.
Mr. Halley. You knew them from their associations with Capone
and Fischetti?
Mr. DeLicia. There is no association there at all.
Mr. Halley. Wasn't there such an association with Huoo Bennett?
Mr. DeLucia. There is no such association with Capone, because
I think Al Capone was already in jail when he got the job.
Mr. Halley. You know very well when Al Capone went to jail it
was understood all over Chicago that certain people carried on for
Capone.
Mr. DeLucia. Oh, yes.
Mr. Halley. And one of those people is Jake Guzik; is that right?
Mr. DeLucia. I don't know.
Mr. Halley. You heard that; didn't you?
Mr. DeLucia. I hear a lot of things.
Mr. Halley. Well, didn't you hear that?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Halley. You never heard that Jake Guzik carried on?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Halley. You never heard that Fischetti carried on?
Mr. DeLucia. They assumed that a lot of people carried on.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever hear it said that j^ou carried on?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Did you ?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Halley. You have been done a great injustice, according to
yourself. You were wrongfully convicted of extortion in the movie
case ?
Mr. DeLucia. That is right.
Mr. Halley. And is it your contention also that when you met
Gioe in the bartenders' case
Mr. DeLucia. I never met him. And, when he came up in court to
identify, he didn't identify.
Mr. Halley. Who was the man who tried to identify you?
Mr. DeLucia. Whoever it was, that man
Mr. Halley. McLane ?
Mr. DeLucia, McLane, yes.
Mr. Halley. And did somebody intimidate.him before the case came
to court ? Maybe somebody spoke to him and told him what would
happen to him.
Mr. DeLucia. All I can tell you is that I never met the man in my
life. He just picked my name out of the paper and said I was in the
restaurant there. I never met him in my life.
Mr. Halley. Well, were you ever there ?
Mr. DeLucia. In the restaurant?
Mr. Halley. Yes.
Mr. DeLucia. Oh, sure, I was in the restaurant. But I never met the
man in my life, never had anything to do with him.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever meet Louis Romano?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes ; I met him.
Mr. Halley. He was the president of the union ; wasn't he ?
Mr. DeLucia. That is what he was supposed to be. I don't know.
ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 45
Mv. Halley. Did you ever meet Frank Xitti ?
Mr. DeLucia. Sure.
Mr. Halley. And you knew Murray Humphreys?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Halley. And you knew Lou Campagna ?
Mr. DeLltcia. Yes.
Mr. Halley. And you knew Frank Abbott?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Halley. But you knew all the others ?
Mr. DeLl CIA. Yes.
Mr. Halley. And you say it was a great injustice to accuse you of
trying to take over that union ?
Mr. DeLucia. You darn right. Because that man never met me.
They never saw me. They just put my name in there.
The Chairman. Well, were you a member of the union ?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
The Chairman. Did you have anything to do with the union?
Mr. DeLucia. No. No, Senator.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever have anything to do with the Retail
Clerks Union ?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever hear of the Retail Clerks International
Protective Association, Local l^-iS ^
Mr. DeLucia. No, no, no, no.
Mr. Halley. You have heard of it ; haven't you ?
Mr. DeLucia. No ; I don't know anything about that stuff.
Mr. Halley. Well, just before you went to jail, didn't the news-
papers claim you were trying to clean out that union, too?
Mr. DeLucia. No; no such thing.
Mr. Halley. Do you ^cnow Max Caldwell ?
Mr. DeLucia. I might have met him. I don't remember.
Mr. Halley. Well, let's get it down right, now. Either you know
him or you don't. Max, Pollock? He is also known as Max Pollock,
Mr. DeLucia. I know a lot of people, so it wouldn't be nothing
missing if I tell you I don't know the fellow and I might have met him'
by some coincidence. And then you could prove me to perjury.
Mr. Halley. We are not going to keep this up all day. You are
here under subpena. I want to tell you that for a man who is here
under oath your answers are completely unsatisfactory. You haven't
given us any more reason to believe your ex]:)lanatioii of why you
should get an $80,000 loan from Hugo Bennett than you have as to
how you know Max Caldwell. You will have to give more definite
answers.
Mr. DeLucia. I can't give you a more definite answer than that.
Mr. Halley. Do you know ]Max Caldwell ?
Mr. DeLucia. I will say "No" ; but that doesn't mean I might not
have met him someplace. Why should I be held to a thing like that?
I might have met him or seen him, and that is all.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Max Pollock?
Mr. DeLucia. No, no.
Mr. Halley. That is another name for Max Caldwell.
Mr. DeLucia. There you are. You see ?
Mr. Halley. But you might have met Mux Caldwell ?
Mr. DeLucia. I might. If I know, I will tell you.
46 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr, Halley. And vou think you may or may not have known Pol-
lock?
Mr. DeLucia, Yes.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever try to get money from the lietail Clerks
Union?
Mr. DeLtjcia. No.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever get any?
Mr. DeLucl4. No, no.
Mr. Halley. You weren't a member of it ?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Robinson. Do you know Louis Greenberg?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Robinson. How well do you know him?
Mr. DeLucia. Well, I wouldn't say I know him well. I know
Greenberg by
Mr. Robinson. What business is he in ?
Mr, DeLucia. He has an insurance company. He has a brewery.
He is a real-estate man, and all that.
Mr. Robinson, And he has an interest in the Seneca Hotel?
Mr. DeLucia. He might,
Mr, Robinson, What brewery company ?
Mr, DeLucia, The Manhattan.
Mr. Robinson. How about Canadian Ace?
Mr. DeLucia. That is right. They changed the name. When I
knew it, it was Manette,
Mr, Robinson, Didn't he take that over from Capone?
Mr, DeLucia, I don't know,
Mr, Robinson, You don't know that?
Mr, DeLucia. I don't think he took that over from Capone. Ca-
pone went to jail before prohibition ; wasn't it?
Mr. Robinson. Who had the Manhattan Brewery Co. ?
Mr. DeLucia. I don't know.
Mr. Robinson. Didn't Al Capone own the Manhattan Brewery Co. ?
Mr. DeLucia. I don't think so, I never heard of it,
Mr, Robinson. Which one of these houses that you have has a wall
around it?
Mr. DeLucia, None.
Mr, Robinson, You don't have any that has a wall around it?
Mr, DeLucia, No, My houses are all open,
Mr, Robinson. Do you hire anyone as a guard ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes, a caretaker.
Mr. Robinson. "Wliat is his name ?
Mr. DeLucia, Jim Samarino,
Mr. Robinson. What is his backgi^ound ?
Mr. DeLucia. He is a worker. He has been working for me for 20
years, for at least 15 years.
Mr. Robinson. Does he have a criminal record ?
Mr. DeLucia. I don't think so. No ; he hasn't.
Mr. Robinson. He hasn't ?
Mr. DeLucia. No,
Mr, Robinson. You never inquired to find out ?
Mr. DeLucia. No. but I know he hasn't, because he is a worker.
Mr. Robinson. Is he also a bodyguard ?
ORGANIZED CRlMEi IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 47
Mr. DeLucia. Ko ; he isn't a bodyguard. He is a working man who
takes care of the grounds, and all that.
Mr. EoBixsoN. Do you have a bodyguard ?
Mr. DeLucia. No, sir.
INIr. EoBiNSON. Who else is a guard out there ?
Mr. DeLucia. Nobody.
Mr. Robinson. He is the only one ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes. He is still out there.
The Chairman. Let me ask what Mr. DeLucia's record has been.
How manj^ times have you been arrested, Mr. DeLucia ?
Mr. DeLucia. I have been arrested several times, Senator.
The Chairman. Well, let us name the times.
Mr. DeLucia. That is hard for me to say. You have them in the
record there.
The Chairman. What have you been arrested for ?
Mr. DeLucia. Just pickup.
The Chairman. Gambling?
Mr. DeLucia. No; no gambling.
The Chairman. And you were arrested and tried on this extortion
case?
Mr. DeLucla.. That is right.
The Chairman. What other times have you ever been in jail? Any
other times ?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
The Chairman. Those were the only ones ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
The Chairman. Never had an income-tax case send you to jail?
Mr. DeLucia. That is the only case.
The Chairman. You had a suit here against somebody about an
elevator, when an elevator fell ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes ; I fell down and broke my hip.
The Chairman. You were with the two Fischetti boys when the
elevator fell ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
The Chairman. Where was that ?
Mr. DeLucia. That was in an antique shop. I went to look at a
painting, and we fell down in the elevator.
The Chairman. Just the three of you in the elevator?
Mr. DeLucia. I think it was four or five of us. I don't know. It
was me, Charlie Fischetti, a fellow by the name of Bobby Carnahan,
the elevator boy, and I don't know who else, maybe one
The Chairman. One of the two Fischetti boys ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes, Joe Fischetti maybe.
The Chairman. What were you and the Fischettis doing together
on that occasion ?
Mr. DeLucia. I went there to look at a painting. They told me
they had a painting there.
The Chairman. They had a painting?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes. It was an antique shop.
The Chairman. Who called you ? One of the Fischettis ?
Mr. DeLucia. No ; I passed by there. I went by there all the time.
They told me there was a painting, and I went to look at it, and on
the way down the elevator fell.
48 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
The Chairman, When you did all this gambling, did you have an
office ?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
The Chairman. Did you just see Al Capone and others around the
hotel ?
Mr. DeLucia. That is right.
The Chairman. All of it at the hotel ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
The Chairman. The Lexington Hotel.
Mr. DeLucia. That is right.
The Chairman. When you went out to the race track, would you
take their bets out there?
Mr. DeLucia. I went out to bet, myself, at the windows, and all
that.
The Chairman. I know, but would you take bets from people at
the race track?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
The Chairman. And also at the hotel. How did they all want to
bet with you? Did 10 or 12 peo})le bet with you a day?
Mr, DeLucia. Oh, no. It all depends.
The Chairman. And you would make $100,000 a year out of betting
with people?
INIr. DeLucia. Yes.
The Chairman. Anything else ?
Mr. Robinson, Did you also bet in the bookie places ?
Mr. DeLucia. I did ; yes. It was a commission house, you know.
Mr, Halley. You mean Harry RusselFs?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. RoniNsoN. Was that where you did most of your betting?
:Mr. DeLucia. Part of it.
Mr. Robinson. Where was the rest ?
Mr. DeLucia. The rest of it was at the track.
Mr. Robinson. Any other books ?
Mr. DeLucia. Some other books.
]\Ir. Robinson. What other ones?
Mr. DeLucia. I tell you, you are going to laugh at me, because you
are going to say "The man is sick." Levine had a book, and I used
to bet over there ; but he is sick now.
Mr. Robinson. I know that. How often would you bet at Levine's?
Mr. DeLucia. Quite often.
Mr. Robinson. What was the name of his place?
Mr. DeLucia. I don't know. He had a few places. He would move
here and there, and all that.
Mr. Robinson. What other places?
Mr. DeLucia. Oh, I don't know what places.
Mr. Robinson. Can't you name some more?
Mr. DeLucia. No, It was them days, you know. Then I went to
jail, you see. And that is all. I don't know now who has anything.
Mr. Robinson. Most of your betting was done at Levine's and
Russell's that wasn't done at the track?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes,
Mr. Robinson. Are you interested in paintings?
Mr. DeLucia. Well^
ORGANIZED CRIME' IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 49
Mr. Robinson. Are you interested in paintings?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
]Mr. Rdbinson. You say you were up some place looking at a
painting.
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Robinson. Do you acquire paintings?
Mr. DeLucia. No; I didn't buy that painting.
Mr. Robinson. Were you thinking of buying it?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Robinson. What was the price of it ?
Mr. DeLucia. Oh. a couple of hundred dollars.
Mr. Robinson. $1,200?
Mr. DeLucia. A couple of hundred dollars.
]\Ir. Robinson. Have you bought paintings?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes. off and on.
]Mr. Robinson. And how many have you bought ?
]Mr. DeLucia. Well, I bought some for $25, some for $50, or some-
thing like that.
Mr. Robinson. What is the highest price you have paid for a
painting?
Mr. DeLucia. About $400.
Mr. Robinson. How much?
Mr. DeLucia. $400. Well, $400 or $600. I think one I paid $500
or $fiOO for.
Mr. Robinson. Did you ever pay over a thousand dollars for one?
Mr. DeLucia. No, never.
Mr. Robinson. Do you make contributions to charities?
]\lr. DeLucia. Oh, yes.
]Mr. Robinson. Do you record those on your tax return?
Mv. DeLucia. No. '
Mr. Robinson. W^hy not?
Mr. DeLucia. Well, what is the use? I put my expense; that is
all. I give to the Catholic Church, a hundred dollars at Christmas,
or something like that.
Mr. R()P.iNSON. And you never record that for deduction purposes?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Robinson. Have you made political contributions?
Mr. DeLucia. No, sir.
]\Ir. Robinson. Never?
Mr. DeLucia. Never.
Mr. Robinson. Never through any one else?
Mr. DeLucia. Never.
]\lr. Robinson. You were arrested in November 1932, at the Planters
Hotel ; is that right ?
Mr. DeLucia. Where?
Mr. Robinson. At the Planters Hotel.
Mr. DeLucia. At the Planters?
Mr. Robinson. Well, were you arrested in 1932?
Mr. DeLucia. Where? Whereat? Where was it?
Mr, Robinson. Well, I am asking you.
Mr. DeLucia. I don't remember the years.
Mr. Robinson. You don't remember whether you were arrested in
1932?
50 OBGANIZE© crime; IN INTERSTATE OOMMERCE
Mr. DeLucia. What was the occasion? Oh, I remember, but I
don't remember the year.
Mr. Robinson. You don't remember that?
Mr. DeLucia. I don't remember the year. Maybe it was so. I
don't remember the occasion.
Mr. Robinson. Do you remember with whom you were arrested
around about that time ?
Mr. DeLucia. Well, I told you I was arrested with Loki. Is that
what you mean ? That is the Congress Hotel, isn't it?
Mr. Robinson. Do you remember having been arrested in 1930, at
South Halsted Street?
Mr. DeLucia. Wliere?
Mr. Robinson. South Halsted Street.
Mr. DeLucia. Yes. That is right, yes.
Mr. Robinson. Who else was arrested ?
Mr. DeLucia. I don't remember.
Mr. Robinson. Weren't there other people there?
Mr. DeLucia. I don't know. You can refresh my memory.
Mr. Robinson. Weren't there other people who were arrested there
at the time ?
Mr. DeLucia. I don't know.
Mr. Robinson. It had something to do with listening to illegal
returns over the radio.
Mr. DeLucia. Oh, yes. That was Charlie Coe, or somethmg like
that, a politician. He was running for Congressman, for State repre-
sentative, or something. I don't remember. We were up there listen-
ing. Yes ; I remember that.
Mr. Robinson. Who else was there ?
Mr. DeLucia. Oh, Frankie Rio, I think, and Charlie Correa. You
have them there. Why should you ask me? I will believe what you
say. I won't deny it.
"Mr. Robinson. I don't want you to admit it. I want you to recall it.
Mr. DeLucia. I don't remember all those names.
Mr. Robinson. Nitti killed himself? Is that right?
Mr. DeLucia. That is right.
Mr. Robinson. Do you know why?
Mr. DeLucia. He got up in the morning, and he killed himself.
Mr. Robinson. You don't have any reasons of your own as to why
he killed himself?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Robinson. Were you associated with him at that time?
Mr. DeLucia. In the trial, yes.
Mr. Hallet. Do you know Tony Resotti ?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Halley. Do you know him as Jack Bracton?
Mr. DeLucia. I know Jack Bracton.
Mr. Halley. Did you know that his real name was Resotti ?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Mike Lemandre ?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Hal LaRocca ?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Salvatore Migeri ?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
ORGANIZED CRlMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 51
Mr. Halley. Do you know Joe Tocco ?
Mr. DeLucia. Who?
Mr. Hat.t.kt. Joseph Tocco.
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Halley. You don't know him?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
The Chairman. Who do you know out at Kansas City « Did you
know Gargotta?
]\lr. DeLucia. No.
The Chaiksian. Did you ever go to Kansas City ?
Mr. DeLucia. I was there when I came out.
The Chairman. I know, but did you ever go there before that?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
]Mr. Halley. Did you know Balestrere ?
Mr. DeLucia. No. I know Gizzo, if that is what you want.
The Chairman. How do you know Gizzo ?
Mr. DeLucia. I met Gizzo in Florida with his wife.
The Chairman. Did you ever have any business with him?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Halley. Did you know Binaggio?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
jSIr. Robinson. How often did vou go to Florida?
Mr. DeLucia. Well, I went to Florida one year. It was in '38. I
kept the family there about 6 months. That is all.
Mr. Robinson. That is the only time you were ever in Florida?
Mr. DeLucia. Before, I went and came back after a few days.
Mr. Robinson. Who would you visit when you were there?
Mr. DeLucia. Well, I would visit Al or somebody else.
Mr. Robinson. You would stay at his house ?
Mr. DeLucia. No ; I would get a place, you know.
Mr. Robinson. ySTho else would you visit besides Al ?
Mr. DeLucia. Well, whoever was around.
]Mr. Robinson. Well, who? Try and remember some of them.
Mr. DeLucia. I don't remember them. It is a long time ago, and
there is no use in my mentioning names when I can't recall.
]\Ir. Robinson. He is the only one that you can recall?
:Mr. DeLucia. Yes. He is the only one I can say for sure. Maybe
I met someone else. I can't say.
Mr. Robinson. You were one of his closest friends, weren't you ?
Mr. DeLucia. I wasn't his closest friend. I was in trust. That
is all.
Mr. Robinson. You were very close to him ?
Mr. DeLucia. No one was close to Al.
Mr. Robinson. You were as close as anyone ?
]\Ir. DeLucia. Oh, no. Don't say that.
Mr. Robinson. "WTio else was as close ?
]SIr. DeLucia. I don't know.
Mr. Robinson. Did you own a house at 5301 West Jackson Street?
Mr. DeLucia. No ; I was living there.
]Mr. Robinson. Wliat is that ?
]Mr. DeLucia. I was renting there.
Mr. Robinson. You were renting there. You never owned that?
Mr. DeLucia. No, sir.
52 ORGANIZBD CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Robinson. Did that place have a wall arouiul it ?
Mr. DeLucia. No. Who tell you those thing?
The Chairman. My. DeLiicia, you can jro back to Chicago, ihis
nieetin<T is recessed, and you are still subject to subpena. I mean, the
subi)ena is still to be held in force as to you. And we will expect that
M-hen you are notitied to appear again, on the same subpena that you
now have, you will be there. Now as quickly as possible, we will go
through these books and return which ones we can to you.
I suppose you need this book on your employees on your tarm : so
that will be gotten back to you as soon as possible.
You, upon the request of Mr. Robinson, will bring m the checks and
the bank statements ? .^1-^^-4.
Mr. DeLucia. You mean this Mr. Robinson m Chicago ^ 1 ou want
the checks and what else ? i a- i
Mr. Haei.ey. All of your papers, whatever you have, i ou under-
stand what the chairman has said ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes. Sure. . .
The Chairman. Then you will be excused for this time.
Mr. Robinson. Excuse me. I would like to clarify one thing, per-
haps. Are these records the records that you turned over to the
parole officer in Chicago?
Mr. DeLucia. That is right.
]Mr. Robinson. And you borrowed those from him to produce here i
Mr. DeLucia. Yes. i re 9
Mr. Robinson. You are required to do that by the parole othcer i
Mr. DeLucia. He call me in there.
Mr. Robinson. You are required periodically to show him every-
thing ?
• Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Robinson. And you produced these books to do that ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Robinson. But that is only from the time you came out ot the
penitentiary? ' • ^ -,
The Chairman. You work this matter out, then, with the parole
officer, and we will expect you to bring it to Mr. Robinson the can-
celed checks, the bank statements, or anything else you have, for his
inspection.
Mr. DeLucia. When do you want me to bring?
Mr. Robinson. I will notify you.
Mr. DeLucia. Are the books to be left here?
The Chairman. They will be left here today. They will be brought
back out to Chicago.
Anything else ?
Mr. Robinson. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. All right, sir.
There is nothing else. You are free to return home. We will stand
in recess until 1 : 30.
(Whereupon, at 12: 25 p. m., a recess was taken until 1: 30 p. m.,
the same day.)
AFTER RECESS
The Chairman. The committee will come to order.
Mr. Campagna, you have been sworn, and I think we might as well
have an understanding here to start with. The committee, the easy
ORGANIZED CRIMEi IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 53
^vav or the hard way, is going to get any facts you know. We will
get alontr a whole lot faster and better if you will be frank and not
hesitate in answering questions, not try to avoid them, and tell us
what information we want, because you are going to reniam under
sub])ena until we get through with our investigation, bo we can
save a lot of time if you will just tell us what we are interested in
without us having to drag it out of you bit by bit.
TESTIMONY OF LOUIS CAMPAGNA, BERWYN, ILL.
Mr. Robinson. Will you state your full name \
Mr. Campagna. Louis Campagna.
:\Ir. Robinson. Is that your real name I
Mr. Campagna. It is. ,•,•>-. x i
Mr. Robinson. Mr. Campagna, this is exhibit ^o. 5 I am showing
you. You were served with a subpena to produce certain books and
records ?
Mr. Campagna. Yes : I was.
]Mr. Robinson. I submit this as exhibit Xo. 5.
The Chairman. It will be made a part of the record as o^hibit No. 5.
( Plxhibit No. 5 appears in the appendix on p. 1379.)
Mr, Robinson. Mr. Campagna, that subpena calls for certain books
and records.
Mr. Campagna. Yes, sir.
Mr. Robinson. Do you have those books and records ?
Mr. Campagna. I have as much as I could get. I got everything
from my auditor.
Mr. Robinson. Will you produce them, please?
Mr. Campagna. I certainly will.
Mr. Robinson. Who is your auditor?
Mr. Campagna. Bansley & Keiner.
The Chairman. Is that a firm ?
Mr. Campagna. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Where are they?
Mr. Campagna. They are located on Wells Street, Chicago.
Mr. Robinson. How'long have they been your auditor?
Mr. Campagna. I think since 19o8 or 1937.
Mr. Robinson. They have handled your books and records and your
tax work ever since that time?
Mr. Campagna. That is right, sir.
Mr. Robinson. Do you have these in any way so that you can iden-
tify them?
Mr. Campagna. Xo.
Mr. Robinson. By grouping, I mean.
Mr. Campagna. His grouping is in this book.
Mr. Robinson. Let us take the book as exhibit Xo. 6.
The Chairman. That is the ledger, exhibit Xo. 6.
]Mr. Robinson. Let us call exhibit Xo. 7, the brown envelope, miscel-
laneous bills and papers.
The Chairman. It will be made a part of the record as such.
( Exhibits Xo. 6 and 7 were later returned to witness.)
Mr. Robinson. Do you have one that has copies of your income-tax
returns?
Mr. Campa{;na. How do you mean?
54 ORGAJSriZED CRIME EN INTEIRSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. KoBiNSON. Do yon have a folder'that contains all the copies of
your income-tax returns?
Mr. Campagna, This is the one here.
The Chairman. That will be exhibit No. 8.
(Exhibit No. 8 was returned to witness after analysis by the com-
mittee. )
Mr. Campagna. Here are a couple in here, 1949. I am not sure.
Mr. Robinson. If j^ou have tax returns in there, let us put them
all together.
Mr. Campagna. I think they are all in there together. Whatever is
.here, he gave me the whole thing.
Mr. E-OBiNsoN. Exhibit No. 9 is also some miscellaneous documents.
Mr. Robinson. What else do you have?
Mr. Campagna. These here. I brought everything he gave mtj.
Mr. Robinson. Exhibit No. 10 is some income-tax returns and other
documents.
The Chairman. They may be so marked.
Mr. Robinson. A manila folder, exhibit No. 11, miscellaneous docu-
ments.
The Chairman. That may be so marked.
(Exhibits Nos. 9, 10, and 11 were later returned to witness.)
Mr. Robinson. Do you have any other books and records in your
possession that you have not produced?
Mr. Campagna. No, sir ; I have not.
Mr. Robinson. Do you have any canceled checks?
Mr. Campagna. Yes; I have. My son has them. He handles the
checking. I didn't have a chance to go down and get them. Wlien I
got the call, I came up here.
The Chairman. Can you get them and turn them over to Mr. Rob-
inson, when he asks for them ?
Mr. Campagna. Yes, sir.
Mr. Robinson. How about bank statements ?
Mr. Campagna. What do you mean ?
Mr. Robinson. Does your son have those?
Mr. Campagna. I suppose he does.
Mr. Robinson. Are 'the documents you produced here merely the
ones you had turned over to the probation officer in Chicago?
Mr. Campagna. No. I just turned over to him 1948 and 1940. He
wanted to know what I did since the day I came home.
Mr. Robinson. Did you bring those documents with you ?
Mr. Campagna. They are in there.
Mr. Robinson. But you do have some other documents?
Mr. Campagna. No; I haven't.
Mr. Robinson. Canceled checks and bank statements.
Mr. Campagna. The canceled check from the farm proceeds are
in there. I will have to go down to Fowler, Ind., and get them. My
son keeps them and handles all that.
Mr. Robinson. I wish you would get them and produce them for
me when I notify you through the parole officer.
Mr. Campagna. That is fine.
Mr. Robinson. As to when do the records go back ?
Mr. Campagna. There is a mix-up between the records on the farm
and tenants. I went away in 1943 and I came home in 1947. There
was tenant farmers and was mostly run ou cash basis.
OEGAJSflZED CRIMEi IN mTERSTATE COMMERCE 55
Mr. Robinson". How about the record from 1941? The subpena
calls for all records back to Jaiuiary 1941.
Mr. CAMrAGNA. They are all there. I am talking about the fann.
Those are the only proceeds I have since I came home.
Mr. Robinson. In other words, what you have produced here and
what your son has is the total amount of records covered by the
subpena ?
]\Ir. Campagna. That is right.
Mr. Robinson. You are on parole at the present time?
Mr. Campagna. I believe so.
Mr. Robinson. Since 1947?
Mr. Campagna. That is riglit.
Mr. Robinson. And from 194o to 1947, were you in prison?
Mr. Campagna. Yes, sir.
Mr. Robinson. What business are j'ou engaged in at the present
time?
Mr. Ca:mpagna. Just handling the both farms, supervising and
watching over them.
Mr. Robinson. What property do you own at the present time ?
Mr. Campagna. I own a farm in P'owler, Ind., in partnership with
my Avife, and the home I live in in partnership with my wife.
Mr. Robinson. Where is your home ?
Mr. Campagna. Berrien, 111.
Mr. Robinson. Is that a residence ?
Mr. Campagna. Yes, sir.
Mr. Robinson. When did you acquire that residence?
Mr. Campagna. 1928 or 1929.
Mr. Robinson. What did you pav for it ?
Mr. Campagna. $13,500.
Mr. Robinson. What is the value at the present time ?
Mr. Campagna. That I would not be able to state. Offhand you
ask me something I could not judge myself.
Mr. Robinson. And have you made any improvements ?
Mr. Campagna. I fixed the attic up.
Mr. Robinson. How much money did you put in the house?
jSIr. Campagna. I judge I didn't put in more than three or four
thousand more.
J\[r. Robinson. When did j'ou acquire the farm ?
]Mr. Campagna. In 1942.
Mr. Robinson. How many acres-is it?
Mr. Campagna. 800 acres.
Mr. Robinson. What did you pay for it ?
Mr. Campagna. $100,000. '
Mr, Robinson. Did you put any improvements into it ?
Mr. Campagna. Yes, improvements to the buildings, painting. It
was in pretty good shape. Some equipment also.
Mr. Robinson. What was the total value of what you put into the
farm?
Mr. Campagna. I judge around $20,000.
]Mr. Robinson. It wouldn't be more than that ?
Mr. Campagna. I wouldn't think it would, no, sir.
Mr. Robinson. Have you acquired any stock or machinery for the
farm ?
Mr. Campagna. Yes ; that is all included.
56 ORGANIZED CRIME: IN INTEIRSTATE COMMERCE
Mr, KoBiNSON. It would be included in the $20,000?
Mr. Campacna. Yes, sir. I wish you wouldn't ])in me down ex-
actly to the figures because I am tryinij to do the best I can.
Mr. Robinson, Approximately. Your sole source of income since
you came out of the penitentiary has been from the farm ?
Mr. Campagna, Since 1943, since I went to the penitentiary, and
since I came home that is the only source of revenue I have, outside of
dividends on White INIotors.
Mr, Robinson, What is the farm used for?
Mr, Campagna. We have steers; we have hogs; and we raise grain
to try to feed our fattening out.
Mr. Robinson. Who runs it for you ?
Mr. Campagna. My son runs the Indiana farm.
Mr. Robinson. Who superintends his running of it?
Mr. Campagna, I do.
Mr. Robinson. Who did wdiile you were in prison ?
Mr. Campagna. There was an elderly man when I took it over. '
He stayed there quite a while. When I went aw^ay they had a boy by
the name of Davey Sheetz, if I am not mistaken, on a 50-50 basis.
Mr. Robinson. How many people do you employ on the farm?
Mr, Campagna, I think he employs two, besides he works himself.
The Chairman, Are there two farms involved here?
Mr, Campagna, There are two farms involved. One is strictly my
wife's and I run it with her own chickens, and I have 40 head of
cattle.
The Chairman, Is that at Fowler ?
Mr, Campagna, No, sir; that is at Berrien Springs,
Mr. Robinson. What did you pay for that farm?
Mr. Campagna. $3,800 and $3,300, or $7,100.
Mr. Robinson, She paid that for the farm ?
Mr, Campagna. Yes, sir,
Mr, Robinson, You advanced the money for that?
Mr, Campagna, Some of it,
Mr. Robinson. How large is the farm ?
Mr. Campagna. Eighty acres.
Mr. Robinson. How much improvements have you put in that?
Mr, CampxVGna, There are quite a lot of improvements there,
Mr, Robinson. Roughly how much have you spent ?
Mr. Campagna. There are a lot of donations. That is why I say,
you spend on there, I say there are $30,000 worth of improvements
on there.
Mr. Robinson. Donations?
Mr. Campagna, Yes.
Mr. Robinson, What sort of donations ?
Mr. Campagna. From cement, from 1933 to 1934, they sent up the
cement, and I did a lot of my own work.
Mr. Robinson. Cement from your own company ?
Mr. Campagna. No.
Mr. Robinson. How would you get donations of cement ?
Mr. Campagna, Well, a fellow was in the labor and material service,
and just friendly, and he sent me up some cement. He came up to
visit me,
Mr, Robinson, How much did he send up to you ?
Mr, Campagna. About 2,100 or 2,200 bags.
ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 57
Mr. RoBiNsox. What was his name?
Mr. Campagna. He is dead. Mike Grassio.
Mr. Robinson. When did yon acquire that property, or your wife?
Mr. Campagna. I think she acquired it in 1932.
Mr. Robinson. And you still own it ?
Mr. Campagna. That is right.
Mr. Robinson. What is the value of it now ?
Mr. Campagna. Well, it is hard to tell. It is according to what
people would pay if they wanted it.
The Chairman. Your best estimate.
Mr. Campagna. Well, I don't know. I don't think I could get
$40,000 for it if she went out and put it on the market. It is a fruit
country center, and that is all you can raise. It is down at the low end
of the river and for the last 3 or 4 years we have been flooded out. So
I don't think anybody would be interested if they knew it.
Mr. Robinson. What other property do you own ?
Mr. Campagna. That is all.
Mr. Robinson. What personal property do you own ?
Mr. Campagna. Outside of what I have on me ?
Mr. Robinson. Stocks, bonds.
Mr. Campagna. I own 300 shares of White Motors,
Mr. Robinson. When did you acquire that ?
Mr. Campagna. I judge around 8 or 9 years ago.
Mr. Robinson. Do you remember what you paid for it?
Mr. Campagna. No ; I don't. It was a variation, I think. I am not
positive— 33 for 100 and 231/2 for the other 200. It may be a little
less. I think 1 was 18. I am not positive.
Mr. Robinson. Do you still have it ?
Mr. Campagna. Yes.
Mr. Robinson. What other stocks do you own ?
Mr. Campagna. Between the both of us we have United States
bonds.
Mr. Robinson. What amount ?
Mr. Campagna. About $15,000. That is not including the maturity.
Mr. Robinson. What other stock ?
Mr. Campagna. That is all, sir.
Mr. Robinson. What stocks does your wife own ?
Mr. Campagna. That is all she owns.
Mr. Robinson. There is no stock she owns?
Mr. Campagna. She owns 250 White Motors. I own 300 and she
owns 250 shares.
Mr. Robinson. Did she acquire those at the same time you did?
Mr. Campagna. About the same time.
Mr. Robinson. Do you have any interest in any business ?
Mr. Campagna. No, sir; I have not, outside of these farms.
Mr. Robinson. You receive no revenue from any other business ?
Mr. Campagna. No, sir ; I have not.
Mr. Robinson. Except the f aims.
Mr. Campagna. That is right.
Mr. Robinson. You are talking now from 1947 up to the present
time.
Mr. Campagna. I am talking about 1943. I dissolved all partner-
ships.
6S958 — 51— pt. 5 5
58 ORGANIZED CRIME IN nSTTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Robinson. What partnerships?
Mr. Campagna. I was in gambling.
Mr. Robinson. Name the partnership.
Mr. Campagna. It is in there. It is all a matter of record.
Mr. Robinson. Yon mnst remember the name.
Mr. Campagna. Mr. Heeney and Corgole.
Mr. Robinson. Who else?
Mr. Campagna. That is alL sir.
Mr. Robinson. And that partnership was for ^Yhat period of time?
Mr. Campagna. That was from around 1934, 1933 to 1934.
Mr. Robinson. You had no partnership agreement with anyone
else during that period of time except those two ?
Mr. Campagna. That is all.
Mr. Robinson. Did you have partnership agreements with them
prior to that time?
Mr. Campagna. Prior to what?
Mr. Robinson. 1933 or 1934.
Mr. Campagna. I don't know just exactly tlie year, but I did not.
Mr. Robinson. Did you have any partnership agreement with any-
one else prior to that time ?
Mr. Campagna. Not to the best of my knowledge ; no. sir.
Mr. Robinson. Tell me something about the nature of the partner-
ship agreement. What was it in ?
Mr. Campagna. Horse books.
Mr. Robinson. You mean, it wasn't solely gambling, it Avas an in-
terest in some particular place?
Mr. Campagna. That is right, in a particular place in gambling.
Mr. Robinson. What were the names of the places ?
Mr. Campagna. The El Patio, and I don't recall what the place on
Twelfth Street was named. I think that will all be in the record. I
know the El Patio.
Mr. Robinson. Then were there others besides that ?
Mr. Campagna. No, sir.
Mr. Robinson. That was the only place that you had an interest?
Mr. Campagna. No; and one on Twelfth Street, but I can't recall
the name of that.
Mr. Robinson. How much money did you put into them?
Mr. Campagna. I think we started out with about $1,500.
Mr. Halle Y. Maybe I can help. The Austin Club.
Mr Campagna. That is right.
Mr. Robinson. You put in about $1,500?
Mr. Campagna. That is right.
Mr. Robinson. How much did Heeney ])ut in ?
Mr. Campagna. I don't know at that time what he put in.
Mr, Robinson. How nuich did Corgole ]3Ut in ?
Mr. Campagna. I think I put the money in myself. They had noth-
ing. We just started a small place and built it up.
Mr. Robinson. How much did you subsequently invest in it?
Mr. Campagna. About $1,500.
Mr. Robinson. That is what you put in first.
Mr. Campagna. Yes.
Mr. Robinson. You said it was built up. Who put the money in
to build it up ?
ORGANIZED CRIME' IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 59
Mr. Campagna. That is the same place. It is a bar in front and a
room in the back. Maybe you don't understand what I am trymg to
get. It was a bar in the front and a room in the back. We operated
the room in the back.
Mr. KoBiNSON. Did yon own the bar in front?
Mr. Campagna. No.
Mr. Robinson. Who owned that?
Mr. Campagna. I think Corgole or somebody else had the bar,
Mr. Robinson. And you had the book.
Mr. Campagna. The three of us had the book in the back.
Mr. Robinson. You got no revenue from the bar?
Mr. Campagna. No; I did not.
Mr. Robinson. Who ran the book for you ?
Mr. Campagna. Corgole.
Mr. Robinson. Where did you get your wire service there ?
Mr. Campagna. That I can't tell you.
Mr. Robinson. You mean you don't know ?
Mr. Campagna. No.
Mr. Robinson. How did the information get into the book?
]Mr. Campagna. The reason I say that, I never knew much about the
book. He was the man who ran everything. I could not even tell
you the odds on the betting on the horses.
Mr. Robinson. This was from 1934 to 1943?
Mr. Campagna. I said about 1934.
Mr. Robinson. Approximately.
Mr. Campagna. Yes.
Mr. Robinson. How much did you take out of that business during
that time?
Mr. Campagna. Gee, I don't know.
Mr. Robinson. Can you give a rough approximation ?
Mr. Campagna. It is all in the records. It is more positive that
way than I have.
Mr. Robinson. I don't think it is in the records. .
Mr. Campagna. Oh, yes.
Mr. Robinson. These records go back to 1934.
Mr. Campagna. No ; they don't.
Mr. Robinson. Then give me your best recollection of it.
The Chairman. What did you make out of it in an average year?
Mr. Campagna. Senator, it is pretty hard to judge. Some years you
get a bad Dreak and some years a fair break. It is hard to judge. If
I give a figure. I would be misquoting myself.
The Chairman. What was the high year and the low year?
Mr. Campagna. The high years were from about 1939- to 1943. We
started in 1934, 1933, whatever it was.
Mr. Robinson. Was it 40, 50, 60 thousand dollars ?
Mr. Campagna. No ; it was not that kind of money in those days.
Mr. Robinson. Did it subsequently develop into that kind of money ?
Mr. Campagna. It did ; yes.
Mr. Robinson. What would you say was quite a bit ?
Mr. Campagna. I would judge around 80 or 90 thousand dollars.
Mr. Robinson. Would that be your peak ?
Mr. Campagna. I think it would.
The Chairman. Would that be your part?
Mr. Campagna. No : that would be the whole.
60 ORGANIZED CRIME 'IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE.
Mr. KoBiNSON. That was split liow many ways? Three ways?
Mr. Campagna. Yes. , . , , t u ■ ....^7
Mr. Robinson. Do you have any interest m the liquor business?
Mr. Campagna. No.
Mr. Robinson. Never at any time?
Mr. Campagna. No.
Mr. Robinson. Did you lay off betsj .
Mr Campagna. They may have. You see, you are asking me some-
thing about the booking business. Like I said a minute ^go. /.^^ont
know much about it. This Corgole ran it and he may have aid off
Mr. Robinson. Did you get any income trom your own individual
0'imblinp' activities ^
Mr. CImpagna. None whatever. Let me explain that again, please.
You mean having another book myself ?
Mr. Robinson. No ; I mean betting yourself.
Mr. Campagna. I might have.
Mr Robinson. Any income you received^
Mr Campagna. I might have made a few dolhirs, and I might have
taken a loss, too, going to the track and betting myself, back and
Mr RomNsoN. Do I understand correctly that Corgole was the one
that made all the arranoements about the wire service i
Mr Campagna. He handled the whole book and everything else.
Mr. Robinson. Is this for the two places ?
Mr. Campagna. Yes ; that is right.
Mr Robinson. You speak of 80 or 00 thousand dol ars approxi-
mately, the top figure; was that from one place or both places?
Mr." Campagna. Both places
Mr. Robinson. Which was the most profitable^one ?
Mr. Campagna. Well, that was a question. Sometimes the one on
Twelfth Street would be profitable
Mr. Robinson. Were they about equal? ^ ^1,^ ,,,^1
Mr. Campagna. I would say they would be about equal at the end
"""^MrRoBiNSON. Do you know an address by tlie number of 3730 AVest
Roosevelt Road?
Mr Campagna. 3730— no; I do not. w + t? o«
Mr. Robinson. Are there quite a few book places along West Roose-
velt Road? ^^ ^
Mr. Campagna. Gee, I could not say. .1 u • 00 1..
Mr. Robinson. Did you have any interest in any other business be-
side this bookmaking business ?
Mr. Campagna. No, sir, I did not. _
Mr. Robinson. During that period of time
Mr. Campagna. No, sir; to the best of my knowledge, I would say
"■^Mr. Robinson. I don't know whether I asked you. Do you have a
place at Fowler, Ind. ?
Mr. Campagna. Yes, sir.
Mr. Robinson. That is about 400 acres?
Mr. Campagna. No, it is more than that. Today it is 950 acres. It
was 800 acres originally. I just bought 150.
Mr. Robinson. What did you pay for the 15U ?
Mr. Campagna. $22,500.
ORGANIZED CRIME' IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 61
Mr. RoBixsox. "Where did the money come from to pay that ?
Mr. Campagxa. I had it.
Mr. RoBixsox. Was that income received from your farm ?
Mr. Campagxa. Some.
Mr. RoBixsox. Where did the rest of it come from ?
Mr. Campagxa. I had it home.
Mr. RoBixsox. What bank do you bank with ?
Mr. Campagxa. I haven't got no bank outside of Fowler, Ind. We
bank all our checkino; for the farm in Lafayette, I think.
Mr. RoBixsox. Do you keep money around the house ?
Mr. Campagxa. I do.
Mr. RoBixsox. How much ?
Mr. Campagxa. I sometimes keep seven or eight thousand dollars.
Mr. RoBixsox. How much ?
Mr. Campagxa. Seven or eight thousand dollars.
Mr. RoBixsox. Is that the largest amount you kept around the
house ?
Mr. Campagxa. Sometimes more.
Mr. RoBixsox. How much?
Mr. Campagxa. I don't know exactly. Sometimes $20,000. Some-
times when I was in partnership from'^the Fowler farm, I sell a herd
of cattle, and you might have $20,000.
Mr. RoBixsox. During the time you were operating the gambling
X)lace, how much money did you keep"^at the house ?
Mr. Campagxa. About three or four thousand dollars.
Mr. RoBixsox. Did you have a safe deposit box ?
Mr. Campagxa. I did not.
Mr. RoBixsoN. Never at any time ?
Mr. Campagxa. Not that I can recall.
Mr. RoBixsox. Well, do you nave any other personal assets ?
Mr. Campagxa. No, I have not.
Mr. RoBixsox. Do you have an interest in the Seneca Hotel?
Mr. Campagxa. None whatever.
Mr. RoBixsox. Ever have one ?
Mr. Campagxa. I just don't recall whether I did.
The Chabrmax. You know whether you had an interest.
Mr. Campagxa. Just a minute. I will answer it. If I am right,
I will answer. I just don't want to make no mistakes, either. No,
I haven't.
Mr. RoBixsox. Are these books that you had in Cicero ?
Mr, Campagxa. Yes, sir.
Mr. RoBixsox. Didn't you have a monopoly of that in Cicero ?
Mr. Campagxa. No, I did not.
Mr. RoBixsox. Wlio else was running books there at the time?
Mr. Campagxa. Well, I don't know.
Mr. RoBixsox. You must know some of them.
Mr. Campagxa. No, I don't know any bookmakers.
Mr. RoBixsox. You know of no other person who was running
a bookie place in Cicero at the time you were ?
Mr. Campagxa. I never paid any attention to running the book.
I just walked in and out of the place we had and I didn't pay at-
tention to it.
Mr. RoBixsox. Do you know Tony Accardo ?
Mr. Campagxa. Yes, I do.
62 ORGANIZED CRIME 'IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr, Robinson. For how long?
Mr. Campagna. 15 or 18 years.
Mr. Robinson. Do you know him intimately ?
Mr. Campagna. I would say yes.
Mr. Robinson. Do you know Mr. DeLucia ?
Mr. Campagna. I do.
Mr. Robinson. You have known him intimately ?
Mr. Campagna. That is right.
Mr. Robinson. For how long?
Mr. Campagna. I would say about the same.
Mr. Robinson. How about Gioe ?
Mr. Campagna. I have known him for quite a while, too.
Mr. Robinson. Where did you come from originally?
Mr. Campagna. Originall}' {
Mr. Robinson. Yes.
Mr. Campagna. Well, I hit, I think, Chicago in 1913. I was
all over the country. I left home.
Mr. RoRiNSON. "\Vliat were you doing at that time ?
ISIr, Campagna, Just bumming around,
Mr, Robinson, You had no source of income at that time?
Mr, Campagna, No; I was just working and getting a little money
and bumming around.
Mr, Robinson, How would you get the money ?
Mr. Campagna. Working.
Mr. Robinson. Did you get it anj' other way ?
Mr. Campagna. No, sir.
Mr. Robinson. Were you convicted of robbery at one time?
Mr. Campagna. I was; in 1919.
Mr. Robinson. You served time for that?
Mr. Campagna. I did, sir.
Mr, Robinson, How old were you then I
Mr, Campagna, About 17, 18.
Mr, Robinson, How come you settled in Chicago ?
Mr, Campagna, Well, I guess it was a good city to live in,
Mr, Robinson. What was that?
Mr. Campagna. I guess it was a good city to live in. I liked it.
Mr. Robinson. What made up your mind on that score ?
Mr. Campagna. Well, the first thing I had to do my parole there.
Then I got Avorking there and I stayed there.
]\Ir, Robinson, >Vhere were you working?
Mr, Campagna, A print shop, I think it is Van Buren and Market,
or Van Buren and Wells,
Mr, Robinson, How long did you work there ?
Mr, Campagna, I worked there, I would say, about a year.
Mr, Robinson, Then what did you do ?
Mr, Campagna. Just took odd-and-end jobs,
Mr. Robinson. When did you start working for Al Capone ?
Mr. Campagna. Well, let's see. I would sa}^ I was with him for a
couple of years around 1927.
Mr, Robinson. When?
Mr. Campagna. 1927.
Mr. Robinson, He brought you to Chicago, didn't he ?
Mr, Campagna. No, sir ; he did not.
ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COAEMERCE 63
Mr. RoBiNsox. Who brought you there?
Mr. Campagxa. I brought myself there.
Mr. EoBixsox. How did you first meet him ?
Mr. Campagxa. I was hanging around the saloon where he was
delivering.
Mr. RoBixsox. Where he was what?
Mv. Campagxa. Delivering.
Mr. RoBixsox. What?
Mr. Campagxa. Delivering beer, I guess.
Mr. EoBixsox. That was during prohibition ?
Mr. Campagxa. That is right, sir.
Mr, RoBixsox. Tell us how you happened to meet him.
Mr. Campagxa. That is the way 1 met him in the saloon. I asked
him for a job and went to work for him.
Mr. RoBixsox. What kind of a job?
Mr. Campagxa. Just ''tailing" merchandise.
Mr. RoBixsox. Tailing merchandise?
Mr. Campagxa. That is right.
Mr. RoBixsox. What does that mean ?
Mr. Campagxa. Like alcohol and beer.
Mr. RoBixsox. I don't understand. Tailing it?
Mr. Campagxa. That is right.
Mr. RoBixsoN. How do you tail it?
Mr. Campagxa. Just watching it, seeing nobody robs it.
Mr. RoBiNsox. Were you armed ?
Mr. Campagxa. Xo, sir.
Mr. RoBixsox. Xever was ?
Mr. Campagxa. Well, yes, I have been armed.
Mr. RoBixsox. When did you first start putting on arms?
Mr. Ca3ipagxa. When I got in that trouble in 1919.
Mr. RoBixsox. Did you start after you had formed this acquaint-
ance with Capone and started working for him?
Mr. Campagxa. Xo, I didn't. I stopped after I come out.
Mr. RoBixsox. You never had a gun on while you were working for
Capone ?
Mr. Campagxa. I was arrested and accused of having a gun on me
in 1927 or 1928, 1 am sure.
Mr. RoBixsox. Did you have a gun on ?
Mr. Campagxa. Yes.
Mr. RoBixsox. So you did have a gun on at one time while you were
working for Capone?
Mr. Campagxa. That is right.
Mr. RoBixsox. That is while you were tailing?
Mr. Campagxa. No, I wasn't doing nothing. I got arrested in the
morning downtown.
Mr. RoBixsox. Did you also drive for Capone, chauffeur?
]Mr. CAMPAGXA. Xo, I drove several times out to the dog track with
him, but I wouldn't say I was a chauffeur. I mean there were other
people around that were chauffeurs, but sometimes he asked me to
drive and I drove him out.
Mr. RoBixsox. You were one of his bodyguards, weren't you ?
Mr. Campagxa. I wouldn't say that.
Mr. RoBixsox. Well, were you or weren't you?
Mr. Campagxa. Xo.
64 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTA'T'E C0M]VOT:RCE
Mr, Robinson. Never was ?
Mr. Campagna. No. I may be accused of a lot of things.
Mr. Robinson. How many times were you arrested?
Mr. Campagna. On numerous times. I just don't recall about how
many.
Mr. Robinson. Do you know Greenberg?
Mr. Campagna. Yes ; I know him.
Mr. Robinson. How long have you known him ?
Mr. Campagna. Oh, I have known him, I would say, a few years.
Mr. Robinson. About the time you met Capone ?
Mr. Campagna. No, it was away after that.
Mr, Robinson. What was your actual business with Capone ?
Mr. Campagna. I just explained, just working for him.
Mr. Robinson. How much did you get for that i
Mr. Campagna. About $50 a week.
JNIr, Robinson. Did you get anything else from any other source at
that time ?
Mr. Campagna. No ; I did not.
Mr. Robinson. What have been your union acti^nties ?
Mr. Campagna. None.
Mr, Robinson, No connection with any union ?
Mr. Campagna. No, sir.
Mr. Robinson. Never at any time ?
Mr, Campagna. No, sir.
Mr. Robinson. Were you involved in any union litigation?
Mr. Campagna. Well, yes ; in this extortion of 1943, I was.
Mr, Robinson. Prior to that ?
Mr, Campagna, Prior to that, I was not. It goes back. It is a
conspiracy, they say, to 1934—35.
Mr. Robinson. Do you know Frank Nitti ?
Mr. Campagna. Yes.
Mr. Robinson. Wlien did you meet him ?
Mr. Campagna. I met Frank around 1928 or 1929, something like
that.
Mr. Robinson. And you stated you know Paul Ricca ?
Mr. Campagna. That is right.
Mr, Robinson, What was Paul Ricca's connection with Al Capone!
Mr, Campagna, That I never did know.
Mr. Robinson. You never did know that ?
Mr. Campagna. That is right.''
Mr, Robinson, Well, you knew it was a close association?
Mr. Campagna. No ; I wouldn't say that. To me the man was close
with a lot of people. I couldn't say which one was close and which
wasn't.
Mr. Robinson. Name some he was close to.
Mr. Campagna. I don't know them.
Mr. Robinson. Well, he was close to Ricca ?
Mr. Campagna. Not that I know of,
Mr, Robinson, How about Murray Humphreys ?
Mr, Campagna. I don't know him.
Mr. Robinson. You don't know him ?
Mr. Campagna. I say I don't know. You say was he close to Al.
I don't know.
ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 65
Mr. Robinson. How long liave you known him?
Mr. Campagna. I have known Humphreys for a few years.
Mr. Robinson. How long?
JNIr. Campagna. Eight or seven years.
]Mr. Robinson. Were you ever associated in business with him?
Mr. Campagna. None whatever.
Mr. Robinson. What business was he in ?
Mr. Campagna. I don't know.
Mr. Robinson. Have you ever had any knowledge of what business
he was in?
Mr. Campagna. No, sir ; I do not.
Mr. Robinson, Or what his source of income was ?
Mr. Campagna. No; I did not.
Mr. Robinson. How about Jack Guzik ?
Mr. Campagna. I Iniow him.
Mr. Robinson. How long?
Mr. Campagna. Ten or 12 years.
Mr. Robinson. What business is he in ?
Mr. Campx\gna. I don't know.
Mr. Robinson. Were you ever associated with him?
Mr. Campagna. Before? If you call associated meeting him in
the cafe for dinner
Mr. Robinson. Let me put it this way. Were you ever associated
with him in any business activity in connection with gambling?
Mr. Campagna. No, sir.
Mr. Robinson. Never at any time?
Mr. Campagna. No, sir.
Mr. Robinson. Fred Evans?
Mr. Campagna. Fred Evans, I have known him for quite a few
years.
Mr. Robinson, What business was he in ?
Mr. Campagna. That I don't know.
Mr. Robinson. Were you ever associated in business with him?
Mr. Campagna, No, sir,
Mr, Robinson, Louis Romano?
Mr. Campagna. No, sir.
Mr. Robinson, You knew him?
Mr, Campagna. Yes; I do.
Mr. Robinson. You don't know what business ?
Mr. Campagna, No.
Mr. Robinson. Danny Stanton?
Mr. Campagna. No.
Mr, Robinson, Joe Fusco ?
Mr, Campagna, No, sir,
Mr. Robinson, You know Pete Fosco?
Mr, Campagna. I know him.
Mr, Robinson. Who is he ?
Mr. Campagna. Committeeman, first ward.
Mr. Robinson. How about Joe Fusco?
Mr. Campagna. I know him.
Mr. Robinson. That is the committeeman?
Mr. Campagna. No,
Mr. Robinson, Who is Joe Fusco ?
66 ORGANIZE'D CRIME' IN INTEIRSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Campagna. I think lie is in tlie liquor business if I am not
mistaken. I am not positive of that, what he is, but that is what I
think it is.
Mr. Robinson. You were never in business with him ?
Mr. Campagna. No ; I was not.
Mr. Robinson. How about Johnny Patton ?
Mr. Campagna. No; I was not.
Mr. Robinson. Do you know him ?
Mr. Campagna. Know of him.
Mr. Robinson. Never met him ?
Mr. Campagna. I don't know whether I did or not.
Mr. Robinson. Phil D'Andrea ?
Mr. Campagna. Yes, I know him.
Mr. Robinson. How lon<^ have you know him ?
Mr. Campagna. I have known him for a few years previous to this
trouble.
Mr. Robinson. What business was he in ?
Mr. Campagna. I don't know.
Mr. Robinson. Ralph Pearce?
Mr. Campagna. I know him.
Mr. Robinson. How long have you known him ?
Mr. Campagna. A few years before this trouble.
Mr. Robinson. Have you ever been associated in business with him?
Mr. Campagna. No, sir ; I was not.
Mr. Robinson. Did you ever work for the Fischettis ?
Mr. Campagna. No, sir.
Mr. Robinson. Do you know them ?
Mr. Campagna. Know of them.
Mr. Robinson. Know of them?
Mr. Campagna. Yes.
Mr. Robinson. Ever met them ?
Mr. Campagna. I know Charles.
Mr. Robinson. What was your connection with Charles?
Mr. Campagna. Dinner, no connection at all.
Mr. Robinson. When did you first meet him?
Mr. Campagna. That I don't know. I think it was at the Chez
Paree at one time having dinner.
Mr. Robinson. Was it at tlie time you were working for Capone?
Mr. Campagna. No; I don't think so. I think it was after that.
Mr. Robinson. Did your first meeting of any of these people occur
while you were working for Capone ?
Mr. Campagna. Some may have.
Mr. Robinson. In fact, it was most of them; wasn't it?
Mr. Campagna. No ; I wouldn't say most of them.
Mr. Robinson. Did you ever go under the name of Carmini?
Mr. Campagna. Yes; I did.
Mr. Robinson. When ?
Mr. Campagna. I judge around 1930. I used it once or twice.
Mr. Robinson. What other names have you gone under ?
Mr. Campagna. I just can't recall offhand. Many times I would
stop in the hotel and give a fictitious name.
The Chairman. What did you go under the name of Carmini for?
Mr. Campagna. I don't know.
ORGANIZED CRIME- IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 67
Mr. EoBiNSON. '\Miat ayohIcI you chanfje your name for?
Mr. Campagna. I would do it many times when I stopped at the
hotel and just give my name,
Mr. Robinson. Some particular reason for it ?
IVIr. Campagna. No ; there was no reason for it.
Mr. Robinson. "V\niere did you acquire the name "Little New York" ?
Mr. Campagna. That was pinned on me by the newspapers.
Mr. Robinson, Because you originally came from New York?
Mr. Campagna. From Brooklyn ; that is right.
Mr. Robinson. Do you know Jack McGurn ?
Mr. Campagna. I did know him ; yes,
Mr. Robinson. What did he do ?
Mr. Campagna, That I don't know,
Mr, Robinson, You have no knowledge of what Jack McGurn did ?
Mr. Campagna. No.
Mr. Robinson. Did he work for Capone ?
Mr. Campagna. I don't know.
Mr. Robinson. How about Frankie and Mike Kelly ?
Mr. Campagna. I know of them.
]Mr, Robinson. When did you first learn about them or meet them ?
Mr. Campagna. I don't know. Casually being in the booking game
at that time, you met a lot of people, I guess every one of them played
horses or liked to play horses.
Mr. Robinson. Did you meet them while working with Capone ?
Mr. Campagna. I didn't work with Capone very long, so I don't
know.
Mr. Robinson. How long did you work for Capone ?
Mr. Campagna. A couple of years at tops. I don't think it was even
a couple of years.
Mr. Robinson. Always at the same pay ?
Mv. Campagna. That is all I ever got from him.
Mr. Robinson. $50 a week ?
:Mr. Campagna. That is right, and that is why I left.
Mr. Robinson. Ernie Rossick ?
Mr. Campagna. I never knew him.
Mr. Robinson, James and Rocco Belcastro ?
Mr, Campagna. No.
Mr. Robinson. Rocco Finelli ?
Mr. Campagna. No.
Mr. Robinson. Frank Diamond?
Mr. Campagna. Yes ; I know him.
Mr. Robinson. What did he do ?
Mr. Campagna. I don't know.
The Chairman. Mr. Campagna, how is it that you know these
people, and you know some of them pretty well, and you do not know
what they do ?
Mr. Campagna. Well, usually you don't ask people their business,
how they make their money, or religion, or politics. If they volun-
teered, the only tiling I could say is what they told me. If you meet
a man in the cafe or book, j^ou are not sociable with him.
The Chairman. If you know them, you know what they do.
Mr. Campagna, A fellow could surmise that they are bookmaking,
but it would be foolish for me to say what I surmised.
68 O'RGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Robinson. Let us have your surmise of what Jack McGurn did.
Mr. Campagna. I don't know.
Mr. Robinson. What was his nickname?
Mr. Campagna. I never did know his nickname.
]\Ir. Robinson. Do you know whether he had a nickname ?
Mr. Campagna. That I never asked. I don't know.
Mr. Robinson. You know it was "Macliine Gun" Jack McGurn.
Mr. Campagna. If you say so. That is what the papers say. I
will have to say "Yes," because I read that, but I don't know.
Mr. Robinson. Do you know Claude Maddox ?
Mr. Campagna. Yes.
Mr. Robinson. How long?
Mr. Campagna. A few years.
Mr. Robinson. What business is he in ?
Mr. Campagna. What I know, I think he was interested in some
kind of saloon out there in Cicero. I don't know. That is just
hearsay.
Mr. Robinson. Sam Hunt.
Mr. Campagna. I know of him.
Mr. Robinson. You say you know of him ?
Mr. Campagna. That is right.
Mr. Robinson. You never met him ?
Mr. Campagna. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Robinson. Do you know James Ragen ?
Mr. Campagna. No, sir.
Mr. Robinson. Patrick Burns ?
Mr. Campagna. No, sir.
Mr. Robinson. Do you know any people connected with the wire
service business ?
Mr. Campagna. No, sir.
Mr. Robinson. Hymie Levin ?
Mr. Campagna. I know Hymie ; yes.
Mr. Robinson. How long have you known him ?
Mr. Campagna. I know Hymie for quite a few years. I met him at
Mayo Bros.
Mr. Robinson. What business is he in ?
Mr. Campagna. Bookmaking, I surmise. I cannot positively say.
You are asking me to surmise. I am just giving you that.
Mr. Robinson. Roy Jones?
Mr. Campagna. No.
Mr. Robinson. You don't know him ?
Mr. Campagna. No, sir.
Mr. Robinson. Do you know any of the Kelly s of the wire service
business ?
Mr. Campagna. No, sir ; I do not.
The Chairman. How about this fellow Curry ?
Mr, Campagna. I know of him.
The Chairman. You know him personally ?
Mr. Campagna. Yes ; I met him.
The Chairman. He was in the wire service business, was he not?
Mr. Campagna. Not that I know of. I read about this wire stuff
while I was in the penitentiary. I never heard about it before.
Mr. Robinson. Who visited you in the penitentiary ?
Mr. Campagna. My wife, my cliildren, my lawyer, Mr. Bernstein.
J
ORGANIZED CRIMEl IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 69
Mr. EoBiNSON. How did you happen to retain him ?
Mr. Campagna. Who?
Mr. Robinson. Bernstein.
Mr. Campagna. My wife retained him.
Mr. Robinson. To handle what?
Mr. Campagna. Our income tax.
Mr. Robinson. Had he worked on your taxes before you went to
prison?
Mr. Campagna. No. After I went to prison is when all this came
up. They put a lien on the farm and my wife's property and all, and
she retained a lawyer.
Mr. Robinson. How much did you owe on j^our income tax?
Mr. Campagna. Personally I would say nothing.
Mr. Robinson. Let us put it this way. How much did the Gov-
ernment allege that you owed?
Mr. Campagna. I think the figures were — newspaper figures I have
to go by — the rest of the sheets are in there, the whole case in is
there.
Mr. Robinson. Didn't your lawyer tell you how much you owed?
]Mr, Campagna. According to the figures it was $480,000. That is
with interest and penalty or whatever it is. I don't know.
Mr. Robinson. Didn't Berstein tell you how much you owed?
Mr. Campagna. How do you mean?
Mr. Robinson. You say you learned it from the newspapers.
Mr. Campagna. That is the first I ever got it, from the newspapers.
Mr. Robinson. How was it paid?
Mr. Campagna. What do you mean, how was it paid ?
Mr. Robinson. There was a compromise settlement on your tax
return.
Mr. Campagna. I don't know whether it was a compromise. It was
a court decision.
Mr. Robinson. Anyway, you paid some money to the Government.
Mr. Campagna. I don't know.
Mr. Robinson. Did you pay it?
Mr. Campagna. I don't know.
Mr. Robinson. Did you have the money to pay it?
Mr. Campagna. I did not.
Mr. Robinson. How much was it?
Mr. Campagna. I think it was $80,000 or $89,000 plus the interest,
whatever that was.
Mr. Robinson. That you yourself owed?
Mr. Campagna. Yes, sir; myself.
Mr. Robinson. That is apart from what DeLucia owed.
Mr. Campagna. I had nothing to do with DeLucia. His case was
separate from mine.
Mr. Robinson. How was the money paid?
Mr. Campagna. That I don't know.
Mr. Robinson. You don't know how it was paid ?
Mr. Campagna. No, I do not.
Mr. Robinson. I am not asking you if you know who paid it.
Mr. Campagna. I don't know.
Mr. Robinson. Did Bernstein ever tell you how it was paid ?
Mr. Campagna. Well, what I heard at the congressional meeting,
I heard how he said it was paid.
70 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Robinson". Was that the first time you ever heard how it was
paid ?
Mr. Campagna. That is right.
Mr. KoBiNSON. What year was that?
Mr. Campagna. I think it was 1946. I was in the penitentiary at
that time.
Mr. EoBiNSON. Didn't Bernstein tell you how it was paid ?
Mr. Campagna. I never asked him. He just said it was paid.
Mr. Robinson. He told you while you were in prison ?
Mr. Campagna. That is right.
Mr. Halley. You are not going to expect us to believe that?
Mr. Campagna. It sounds fantastic, but it is true.
Mr. Halley. It sounds like a lie.
Mr. Campagna. You can put it that way, sir. I am trying to ex-
plain the way he explained.
Mr. Halley. Don't expect the committee to accept the statement
that the lawyer told you that the money was paid and you didn't ask
how it was paid.
Mr. Campagna. I just explained to you that the first time that I
knew it was at the congressional hearing. People brought the money
and he paid it.
]Mr. Halley. You said you didn't even ask him when he told you
in person how it was paid for j^ou.
Mr. Campagna. Let me get that straight.
Mr. Halley. You said your lawyer came to see you in person.
Mr. Campagna. That is right.
Mr. Halley. And you said you didn't ask him how he got the money
a]id where he got it or who gave it to him.
Mr. Campagna. At that time I did not.
Mr. Halley. I don't believe it.
The Chairman. Why didn't you ask him ?
]Mr. Campagna. I didn't ask. He did not talk about money at all.
He said, "Your tax was settled." The only time I heard about it was
in 1947 when we went before Congress.
The Chairman. Would it not be a natural question since $120,000
was paid on your behalf, that j^ou would ask?
Mr. Campagna. He didn't tell me even the figures.
The Ciix\iRMAN. You knew it was a very large amount.
Mr. Campagna. I didn't know, because I was getting accused of a
lot of things in that settlement that I didn't think it would ever be(
that much.
The Chairman. You knew it was a large amount that they claimed
you owed, and you did not inquire wdio paid it and how ?
Mr. Campagna. Wlien I got home I inquired. He said he didn't^
know. That is how I found out at the Congress.
The Chairman. Did he not come to the prison and tell you? Did
you not ask him ?
Mr. Campagna. He just said it was paid and that is all.
Mr. Robinson. Did he tell you how much?
Mr. Campagna. $80,000 or^$89,000 and interest.
Mr. Robinson. At the time you were in prison ?
Mr. Campagna. No, he didn't. At the congressional
The Chairman, What is your best idea about who paid that money ?
Mr. Campagna. That I don't know.
ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN ESTTERSTATE COMMERCE 71
The CiiAiRMAX. You must have some theory about it. Either it
would have to be your family or friends or somebody that was under
obligation to you or that you had done something for. Your family
did not pay it, did they?
Mr. Campagxa. No.
The Chairman. What is your theory about it ?
ISIr. Campagxa. It must have been some friends who paid it, but I
have never found out. It couldn't have been strangers.
The Chairman. Strangers would never have come in and put up
$120,000.
Mr. Campagxa. That is right.
The CiiAiRMAX. You must have some idea who paid it. Who do
you think paid it ?
Mr. Campagxa. That I don't know.
The Chairmax. You may not know, but what is your best judg-
ment ?
Mr, Campagxa. I hesitate to mention names, because I wouldn't
have an idea who paid. I thought it would come out before this.
The Chairmax. Do you think Mr. Bulger paid it ?
Mr. Campagxa. I couldn't say.
The Chairmax. He was head of some organization that you be-
longed to, wasn't he ?
]\Ir. Campagxa. That I belong ?
The Chairmax. Yes.
Mr. Campagxa. I don't belong to no organization.
The Chairmax. I mean at that time.
Mr. Campagxa. No ; I don't belong to no organization at that time
or any other time.
The Chairmax. You say you tried to find out who paid it ?
Mr. Campagxa. No ; I saicl I never did, because I can't.
The Chairmax. Why ?
Mr. Campagxa. Because the people I associated with know I am on
parole and I have been staying away from anybody. If anybody
same down to Bernstein and gave the money, just like I tell the parole
division, I show them what they wanted.
The Chairmax. You made no effort to find out.
Mr. Campagxa. I have not associated with anybody.
The Chairmax. Have you made any effort to find out who paid the
money ?
Mr. Campagxa. No ; I have not.
Mr. RoBixsox. Do you mean Bernstein came to you in prison and
just said the money is paid ?
Mr. Campagxa. When he came down there, I asked him how is the
tax getting along. The last time he came down he was not very long,
just in and out. and if my memory serves me right, he came to find out
about certain years. I said, "I don't know; you will have to see the
auditor." He got together with the auditor and when he came back he
visited me three or four times, the last time was the latter part of 1946,
which the record will show, and he said to me that it was all straight-
ened out or on the verge of it. The next I heard about the tax was
Mr. KoBiNsox. Let us stop there. He said to you in prison it is all
straightened out.
Mr. Campagxa. The tax situation is straightened out.
Mr. RoBixsox. Did you ask him how ?
72 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Campagna. I supposed tlirougli court. I don't know the
process.
Mr. Robinson. You knew there was money owed.
Mr. Campagna. Yes, that is right.
Mr. Robinson. Did you ask him, "Well, did my wife give you the
money?"
Mr. Campagna. No, I didn't ask him anything. To the best of my
knowledge, I didn't. I just took it for granted it was taken care of.
Mr. Robinson. By being taken care of, it was paid ?
Mr. Campagna. That is right.
Mr. Robinson. And you didn't ask where he got the money to pay it ?
Mr. Campagna. That is right.
Mr. Robinson. From your wife or somebody else ?
Mr. Campagna. That is right.
Mr. Robinson. You didn't ask him about that ?
Mr. Campagna. That is right.
The Chairman. Did you have a big amount of money put away at
that time ?
Mr. Campagna. I wouldn't say a big amount. I had some money.
The Chairman. How much ?
Mr. Campagna. I judge around $30,000.
The Chairman. Did you ask him whether he used that money ?
Mr. Campagna. He wouldn't know where to get it and nobody else
would.
Mr. Robinson. "Wliere did you have it ?
Mr. Campagna. I had it hidden.
Mr. Robinson. I asked you if you had any money around the house
and you said the most you had Avas seven or eight thousand dollars.
Mr. Campagna. That is right.
Mr. Robinson. That was in your house.
Mr. Campagna. That is right.
Mr. Robinson. Apparently you had some at some place outside of
the house that was not in a bank or safe deposit.
Mr. Campagna. That is right.
Mr. Robinson. Where was that?
Mr. Campagna. It was in some fellow's house.
Mr. Robinson. Who was the fellow ?
(No response.)
The Chairman. That is a proper question.
Mr. Campagna. Well, I will be frank, I had it at home. I didn't
want my wife or nobody to know about it. I was going to go away
for quite a while and I didn't know
Mr. Robinson. You had it hidden in your own home?
Mr. Campagna. That is right.
Mr. Halley. Now, you are either lying now or you were before.
You said it was in another fellow's house. You said it was not in
your house. You are trying not to tell the committee where you had
it. As counsel for the committee, I would advise the committee not to
accept the answer.
The Chairman. You said it was in somebody's house.
Mr. Halley. You were definite about it.
Mr. Campagna. I would like to retract the statement.
Mr. Halley. Your retraction has no effect at all, because the way
you testified, it is quite clear it was not in your own house, that it was
ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 73
in somebody else's house, and after the chairman told you you had to
answer the question, and say in whose house it was, you changed your
testimony. You are lying either now or then. Which way do you
want to have it. Either way you are committing perjury. Which
way do you want it?
Mr. Campagna. I had it at home.
Mr. Halley. You mean you were lying when you told the committee
it was in somebody else's house ?
Mr. Campagna. I wasn't lying. I just said somebody else's house.
Mr. Halley. That was a lie, wasn't it? It was untrue, was it not?
Mr. Campagna. I wouldn't say it was untrue.
Mr. Halley. I would say it was untrue. You said it. You used
those words, did you not ?
Mr. Campagna. I did.
Mr. Halley. And you knew what you were saying?
Mr. Campagna. No I didn't know what I was saying.
Mr. Halley. You didn't know what you were saying when you said
it was in somebody else's house?
Mr. Campagna. No.
Mr. Halley. You are lying again. This is the third lie when you
say that you didn't know^ what you were saying.
INIr. Campagna. I just told you that I had it home. I didn't want
anybody to know where I had it.
Mr. Halley. You told Mr. Robinson quite definitely that you didn't
have it home. Then you had it in somebody's house. Then he asked
whose house, and you hesitated to answer, and the chairman said you
had to answer. Then you changed your testimony and you said you
had it in your own house. Now, one or the othei'^ statement was untrue,
is that not so ?
Mr. Campagna. I suppose.
Mr. Halley. Well, isn't it?
The Chairman. Where did you have the money ?
Mr. Campagna. I had it home.
Mr. Robinson. I asked you a short while ago how much money you
had in your house and you told me, I believe, seven or eight thousand
dollars.
Mr. Campagna. That is right.
Mr. Robinson. Now you are telling me that you had $30,000 in your
house.
Mr. Campagna. I said around $30,000, 1 am not sure.
Mr. Robinson. So when I asked you how^ much you had in the house
previously, you didn't tell me the total amount that you had in the
house.
Mr. Campagna. Well, that is w^hat I meant.
Mr. Robinson. In other words, you didn't intend to say anything
about the $30,000 that you had hidden somewhere.
Mr, Campagna. No; I would say something. The question would
come up about the income, and I w ould tell you about it, and I would
tell the truth about it.
Mr. Halley. You realize you perjured yourself wdth one answer
or tlie other.
Mr. Cajnipagna. I am telling you the truth. You are asking ques-
tions and I am giving you the best of my knowledge.
68958 — 51 — pt. 5 6
74 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. H.MXEY. I think yon are doino- the opposite.
Mv. C'a:mi'ac;xa. I don't think so. You misunderstand me m a lot
The CnAiR:*rAN. I think it might be very well for the committee to
o-o back over this record and review the questions and answers, and
see if this witness has perjured himself. After all, he is on parole.
I think we mioht have a short recess for that purpose.
Mr. H ALLEY. I a.o-ree.
The CiLMRMAN. Will you wait outside, Mr. Campagna, while we
go over this matter ?
Mr. Campagna. Yes, sir.
(A short recess was taken.) . ^ ^
The CiiAiRMAX. Mr. Campagna, the committee is not satished with
the answei^ you have given to this question about where the money
was. You have given two different answers. So that unless you have
some further statement you want to make about anything, we will
have no further questions to ask you at this time.
Mr. Campagna. That is the only thing. I told you the truth. 1
had it at home. I just didn't want to divulge I had it at home. Not
that I made any wrong statements here or anything else. A lot of
things you asked me naturally a person cannot remember 15 or 18
years ago, 7 or 8 or 10 years ago. I am trying to do the best I can.
I am not here to lie to you or hurt anybody.
The Chairman. Do vou have any other statement you want to make ?
Mv. Ca^ipagna. Weil, that is all I can say. I have answered truth-
fully everything I have known. I have tried my best to the best of my
knowledge. -, -, • ^ j>
The Chair^ian. We will take this matter under advisement tor
future action, but I see no reason for going on. You will remain under
subpena, Mr. Campagna.
Mr. Campagna. Do I have to stay here in town?
The Chair^ian. You do not have to stay in town, but when you are
notified to come back or subject to any further action of the Senate,
jou will appear.
Mv. Campagna. That is right.
The Chairman. That is all.
Mr. Campagna. I hope I done the best I could for you.
The Chairman. Mr. Gioe, will you hold up your right hand?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give this committee
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help
you God?
Mr. GiOE. I do.
The Chairman. All right, Mr. Kobinson.
TESTIMONY OF CHARLES GIOE, CHICAGO, ILL.
Mv. Robinson. Will you state your full name?
Mr. GiOE. Charles Gioe.
Mr. Robinson. Is that spelled G-i-o-e ?
Mr. GiOE. Yes, sir.
Mr. Robinson. What is your residence ?
Mr. Gioe. 200 East Chestnut Street.
Mr. Robinson. Chicago?
Mr. GiOE. Yes, sir.
ORGANIZED CRIMEi IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 75
Mr. RoBiisrsoN. IVliat is that place ?
Mr. GiOE. Seneca Hotel.
Mr. TvOBixsox. Mr. Gioe, you were served witli a subpena to produce
certain books and records This is a copy of it?
Mr, GiOE. I have one in my pocket.
The Chairmax. Let that be marked "Exhibit No. 12.-'
(Exhibit Xo. 12 appears in the appendix on p. 1380.)
Mr. RoBiNSOx. Do 3'ou liave the books and records to produce in
compliance with that subpena?
Mr. GiOE. I have income-tax returns from 1941 and 1942. I asked
the auditor and he didn't know if he could find 1943. He just gave me
copies because his records are under subpena.
Mr. RoBixsox, "\"\nio is that?
Mr. GiOE. Bernard Shaeffer. I have my record here of 1948 and
1949 .
]\Ir. RoBiNsox. Will j^ou produce those, please ?
Mr. Gioe. Yes, sir.
Mr. RoBixsox. ]Mr. Gioe, let us take these hurriedly. Here is a
group of records tied together with elastic bands. Can vou identify
these? ^
Mr. Gioe. Them are checks.
Mr. RoBixsox. Those are canceled checks?
]Mr. Gioe. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And bank statements.
Mr. Gioe. They are in there. I told the auditor to get everything
he possibly could.
The Chairmax. Let those be marked "Exhibit No. 13."
Mr. RoBixsox. Let us make the book marked "Work sheets, balance
sheets, bank reconciliations," exhibit No. 14.
The Chairmax. That will be made a part of the record as such.
Mr. RoBixsox. A black ledger book, exhibit No. 15.
The Chairmax. That will be a part of the record.
Mr. RoBixsox. An envelope containing balance sheets, exhibit
No. 16.
The Chairmax. It will be made a part of the record.
Mr. GiFE. This is a penciled copy of my 1941 tax return.
Mr. RoBixsox. Do you have a copy ?
]Mr. Gioe. It is under subpena by this auditor.
]Mr. RoBixsox. He gave you a copy ?
Mr. GioE. He gave me a penciled copy.
Mr. RoBixsox. The penciled copy of income tax, 1941, and 1942,
exhibit No. 17.
The Chairmax. Let it be filed and made a part of the record.
Mr. RoBixsox. What else do you have ?
Mr. Gioe. This is for 1949, 1 believe.
Mr. RoBixsox. Tax return for 1948, exhibit No. 18, and a tax return
for 1949, a copy thereof, exhibit No. 19.
Tlie Chairmax. It will be made a part of the record.
(Exhibits No. 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, and 19 were returned to witness
after analysis by the committee.)
Mr. RoBixsox. Are these all the records that you have ?
Mr. Gioe. Those are the only ones I could get at this time.
Mr. RoBixsox. Does your auditor have all the other records ?
76 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. GiOE. He claims lie doesn't have 1943 or 1940, and I couldn't
remember at the time just who filed the 1940 record.
Mr. EoBiNSOx. Do you have any other records that are called for
by the subpena in any other place other than your own possession or in
Mr. Shaeffer's possession ?
Mr. GiOE. None, sir ; I don't believe.
Mr. Robinson. You have made a search for those ?
Mr. GioE. Well, I didn't have much time. I was notified that
morning to get the records and come on down here, so I just went
to my bookkeeper in my office and had him get the stuff. I tried to
get 1941, 1942, but all I could get is 1942 from him.
Mr. EoBiNSON. Mr. Chairman, might I suggest that the witness
be instructed to make such a search to see whether or not he has any
other records in any other place, and that they be delivered ? _
The Chairman. Mr. Gioe, you make a search and see if you can
find the records. Mr. Eobinson will be in touch with you, and fol-
low his instructions by delivering the records to him.
Mr. GioE. Yes, sir.
Mr. Robinson. You are at the present time a parolee or you are
released from the penitentiary ?
Mr. Gioe. Yes, sir.
Mr. Robinson. In connection with the movie extortion case?
Mr. GiOE. Yes, sir.
Mr. Robinson. How old are you, Mr. Gioe ?
Mr. Gioe. Forty-six.
Mr. Robinson. Have you always been a resident of Chicago ?
Mr. Gioe. Yes, sir.
Mr. Robinson. Wliat properties do you own?
Mr. Gioe. Myself, I don't own any property.
Mr. Robinson. You have no interest in any real estate ?
Mr. Gioe. No, sir.
Mr. Robinson. Do you have any stocks or bonds ?
Mr. Gioe. No, sir.
Mr. Robinson. Have you had since 1940 ?
Mr. Gioe. I had an interest in a restaurant known as the Beach-
combers, in Chicago. That was the last interest.
Mr. Robinson. When did you have that interest?
Mr. Gioe. I believe I sold it in 1942 or 1943.
. Mr. Robinson. Do you have any books or records which show that
interest ?
Mr. Gioe. No, sir.
Mr. Robinson. How did you acquire it ?
Mr. Gioe. I went into the business with these people at the begin-
ning, at the inception of the business. I made the suggestion to operate
that type of restaurant in Chicago.
Mr. Robinson. Was it solely a restaurant ?
Mr. Gioe. Yes, sir.
Mr. Robinson. Did you have a gambling establishment in it?
Mr. Gioe. No, sir.
Mr. Robinson. Do you have any records to show that interest in the
restaurant ?
Mr. Gioe. Yes ; I will have to get these people that have the restau-
rant and get the back records up to the time that I was with them.
ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 77
Mr. Robinson. Did you put money into it ?
Mr. GiOE. Yes, sir.
Mr. Robinson. How much did you invest in it ?
Mr. GiOE. I believe it was 1939. I don't know whether it was $7,500
or thereabouts.
Mr. Robinson. Did you have any agreement?
Mr. GiOE. Yes, sir.
Mr. Robinson. With the other parties ?
Mr. GiOE. Yes, sir.
Mr. Robinson. Written agreement ?
Mr. GiOE. Yes, sir.
Mr. Robinson. You don't have a copy of that ?
Mr. GioE. No. sir.
Mr. Robinson. Did you ever have a copy ?
Mr. GiOE. I owned 17 percent of the stock.
]Mr. Robinson. Do you have the shares of stock ?
Mr. GioE. I had the shares of stock.
Mr. Robinson. You disposed of it ?
Mr. GiOE. Yes, sir.
Mr. Robinson. Did you have any other interest in any business
other than this one that you have just mentioned ?
Mr. GiOE. Since what year?
Mr. Robinson. Let us go back to the years prior to the time you
went to prison.
Mr. GioE. Well, I had a very small interest in the Seneca Hotel.
Mr. Robinson. When did you acquire that interest ?
Mr. GiOE. I don't know if it was 1937 or 1938.
Mr. Robinson. What was the amount of the interest ?
Mr. GiOE. Well, I made $2,500 profit on the deal. I never knew
just what extent my interest would be in there. I had some stock-
holdings with Mr. Greenberg, of which I never knew the amount.
A year later or 2 j-ears later, we sold out. I got $2,500 for my interest
in it.
Mr. Robinson. How much did you put into it.
Mr. GiOE. I think I bouo-ht $12,000 worth of stock.
Mr. Robinson. $12,000 worth of stock?
Mr, GiOE. I believe so.
Mr. Robinson. Who asked you to buy the stock?
Mr. GiOE. Mr. Greenberg.
Mr. Robinson, How long have you known him ?
Mr, GiOE. I would say 15 or 16 years.
Mr. Robinson. And you made a $2,500 profit?
Mr. GioE, That is right.
Mr. Robinson. And you sold the stock when ?
Mr, GioE. I believe it was 1939.
Mr. Robinson. 1939 ?
Mr. GiOE. I am not too sure about the years. One of my tax returns
here may show it. I made $2,500 on the investment.
Mr, Robinson, Is that the only investment you ever made ?
Mr, GioE. With Mr. Greenberg?
Mr. Robinson. No. Anywhere else outside of the one you men-
tioned about the restaurant.
Mr, GiOE, If I made any others, it was very small.
Mr. Robinson. All right.
78 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
The Chairman. What about the construction company. Are you
not a partner in that ?
Mr. GiOE. Yes, sir.
Mr. Robinson. Is that since you have been on parole?
Mr. GiOE. Yes, sir.
Mr. Robinson. When did you first go into that?
Mr. GioE. April of 1949.
Mr. Robinson. AVho owns that company?
Mr. GioE. We are partners, Pantaleo and myself.
Mr. Robinson. Spell it.
Mr. GioE. P-a-n-t-a-1-e-o.
Mr. Robinson. Who is he ?
Mr. GiOE. He just came out of the JSIarines, and he was a combat
engineer, and he didn't have any money, and he spoke to me about
gonig into business. I knew the construction business, so I went with
him.
Mr. Robinson. How^ much did you put up ?
Mr. GioE. $5,000.
Mr. Robinson. Where did you get that?
Mr. GioE. I had some money.
Mr. Robinson. Was that out of your savings?
Mr. GioE. Yes, sir.
Mr. Robinson. And you are a partner with him in that business?
Mr. GiOE. Yes, sir.
Mr. Robinson. What is the value of that business?
Mr. GiOE. I think
Mr. Robinson. Is it a corporation?
Mr. GioE. No; it is a partnership. I imagine I have about, it is
worth to me about eleven or twelve thousand dollars.
Mr. Robinson. Steel construction business?
Mr. GiOE. No; construction. We ]ust construct anything that you
want.
Mr. Robinson. How many people do you employ?
Mr. GiOE. I would say we have about 10,000.
Mr. Robinson. Had you previous experience in that business ?
Mr. GioE. No, sir.
Mr. Robinson. How did you get into it ?
Mr. GiOE. I met this Pantaleo and as I told you, I have known him
since he was a youth. He just came out of the Marines and he w^as
in the combat engineers, and he had started this business himself. He
didn't have enough money. He thought with a little more money he
could develop and take on more work. So at the time I just been
released the second time from the penitentiary, and I thought that the
opportunity was all right, and I went in with this lad.
Mr. Robinson. This was in 1949?
Mr. GioE. 1949.
Mr. Robinson. What have you built since you have been in business ?
Mr. GiOE. Well, we finislied one outdoor theater in Elgin, 111., and
are biulding one now in Blue Island, 111. We worked for the parks,
board of trade, the Cradle Society in Evanston. We remodeled a
building for them. And a number of jobs like that.
Mr. Robinson. Since 1949, how much profit have vou made ?
Mr. GiOE. Well, the first year I think we made about $5,600. Right
now we are about fourteen or fifteen thousand ahead. This year so
far
ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE: 79
Mr. Robinson. Have you had a distribution of profit?
Mr. GiOE. No, because the more you expand the business, the more
money you need, and I have kept the money in there.
Mr. Robinson. "Wliat do you get. out of the business, a salary ?
Mr. GiOE. I don't take any salary, I have a drawing account. If
J want money, I draw it.
Mr. Robinson. I see. How much do you usually draw ?
Mr. GiOE. I haven't drawn any.
Mr. Robinson. AVhat do you live on ?
Mr. GiOE. I have some money.
Mr, Robinson, Where do you have it ?
Mr, GioE, Well, I have got some put away.
The Chairman, We are not trying to get your money, but we want
to know where you keep your money and how much you have got,
Mr. GiOE. Well, I don't know
The Chairman, There is no use in hesitating. You can tell use or
else.
Mr. GiOE. I don't even knoAv
The Chairman, How much money have you got and where have
you got it ?
Mr, GiOE. I don't have too much money.
Mr. Robinson. That was not the question, Wliere is the money ?
Mr. GiOE, Well, there is some money in the safe at the office, at the
hotel, and my wife's account in the bank,
Mr, Robinson, What is the amount of your wife's account in the
bank ?
Mr. GiOE. I would say maybe offhand 7 or 8 thousand dollars.
Mr, Robinson, What is the amount in the safe at the hotel ?
Mr, GiOE. I would say maybe 3 or 4 thousand dollars,
Mr, Robinson, Where else do you have it?
Mr, GiOE. Personally myself I don't know,
Mr. Robinson. You mean you don't Iniow where your money is ?
Mr. GiOE. I don't have much. Well, I got $5,000 in the business that
I originally bought.
Mr. Robinson. You have got how much at the hotel safe ?
Mr. GiOE, Yes, I say I think I got 3 or 4 thousand
Mr. Robinson. Let us get it all out individually and locate it, $5,000
in the business.
Mr. GiOE. Yes; $5,000 in the business.
Mr. Robinson. How much in your wife's bank account?
Mr. GiOE. I would say that there is $7,000. I am not too sure,
Mr. Robinson. That is close enough. How much in the safe in the
hotel?
Mr, GiOE, I would say $3,000,
Mr. Robinson. How much at some other place?
Mr, GiOE. I don't have any other place,
Mr. Robinson, That is the only place?
Mr, GiOE. Yes, sir.
Mr. Robinson. You have no drawing account — you have no salary
from the business ?
Mr, GiOE, No, sir. It is there ; if I want it, I take it,
Mr. Robinson. That is not what I am asking. How much do you
draw out ^f the business ?
Mr, GiOE. I haven't drawn anything.
80 -ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Robinson. Where do you draw the money to live on ?
Mr. GioE. I don't need much to live on. My wife pays the expenses.
Mr. Robinson. You live at the Seneca Hotel ?
Mr. GiOE. Yes, sir.
Mr. Robinson. How much do you pay there ?
Mr. GiOE. $175 a month.
Mr. Robinson. Where do you get the money ?
Mr. GiOE. My wife pays it. She has two restaurants.
Mr. Robinson. All right. \Yliere are the restaurants located?
Mr. GiOE. One is located at Ogden Avenue and one at Damon and
Lawrence.
Mr. Robinson. How much does she make out of that ?
Mr. GiOE. I would say about seven or eight thousands dollars a year.
Mr. Robinson. And on that you and your wife live ?
Mr. GiOE. Well, I mean she is paying the expenses.
Mr. Robinson. She is paying everything ?
Mr. GiOE. Yes ; she pays the hotel bills and everything.
Mr. Robinson. And you have no other income from any other
source ?
Mr. GioE. No, sir.
The Chairman. Wliat do you do with your spare time?
Mr. GiOE. I am working in this business.
The Chairman. You spend some time out there ?
Mr. GiOE. Yes. I am instrumental in getting some of that business.
Mr. Robinson. You came out of the penitentiary in 1947 ?
Mr. GiOE. That is right.
Mr. Robinson, You went into this business in 1949.
Mr. GioE. That is right.
Mr. Robinson. You put $5,000 in it.
Mr. GiOE. Yes, sir.
Mr. Robinson. Did you have that $5,000 in some box somewhere or
in a hotel safe ?
Mr. GiOE. No ; we sold a piece of property that my wife had, and I
took the $5,000 from there.
Mr. Robinson. How did you wife get that property ?
Mr. GiOE. Well, we bought a home in 1935 and we sold it.
Mr. Robinson. When did you sell it ?
Mr. GioE. Last year.
Mr. Robinson. What did you make on that ?
Mr. GiOE. Well, I think it was maybe $4,000.
Mr. Robinson. What did you pay for the house ?
Mr. GiOE. $13,000.
Mr. Robinson. Did you and your wife have some other property
somewhere ?
Mr. GiOE. No, sir.
Mr. Robinson. Does your wife have any stocks or bonds?
Mr. GioE. Not tliat I know of, sir.
Mr. Robinson. ^Vliat did you do from 1947 to 1949?
Mr. GiOE. I worked for the Consolidated Wire.
Mr. Robinson. Doing what ?
Mr. Gios. I worked as assistant to the manager.
Mr. Robinson. What is that business?
Mr. GiOE. Consolidated Wire, a wire business.
Mr. Robinson. Not a wire-service business.
i
ORGANIZED CRIMEi IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 81
Mr. GiOE. No. He is the man tluit sponsored my parole for the job.
Consolidated.
Mr. RoBixsox. Who is the man ?
Mr. GiOE. Paul Mann.
Mr. EoBiNsox. Has he always been in that business ?
Mr. GiOE. Yes, sir: for 40 years.
Mr. RoBixsox. Did you work for him before?
Mr. GiOE. Xo, sir.
Mr. RoBixsoN. How did you happen to know him ?
Mr. GiOE. Just casually around the restaurant.
Mr. RoBixsox. Now, what businesses were you in prior to the time
you went into the penitentiary ^
Mr. GiOE. Prior to the time I was with the Beachcomber and I had
an interest.
Mr. RoBixsox. Is that a restaurant?
Mr. GioE. Yes, sir.
Mr. RoBixsox. And a bookie place.
Mr. GiOE. Xo; that is not a bookie place. The Beachcomber res-
taurant that I spoke of.
Mr. RoBixsox. That is the one vou had an interest in ?
Mr. GiOE. That is right. ] . .
Mr. RoBixsox. What other activities did you engage in?
Mr. GiOE. I had a cigar store at Clark and Lake.
Mr. RoBixsox. How long did you have that ?
Mr. GiOE. Approximately 2 years.
Mr. RoBixsox. When did j^ou buy it ?
Mr. GiOE. We opened it. We didn't buy it. We took a store and
fitted it out.
Mr. RoBixsox. When did vou do that?
Mr. GiOE. I would say 1940 or 1941.
Mr. RoBiNsox. And you sold it ?
Mr. GiOE. Xo; when I went to jail, I just disbanded it. I broke the
thing up in October 1943.
Mr. RoBixsox. AVere you in there yourself in that business ?
Mr. GiOE. Xo, sir.
Mr. RoBixsox. Who was in with j"ou ?
Mr. GiOE. Mai Clark.
Mr. RoBixsox. Who was he? Was he always in that business or
some other business?
Mr. GiOE. That is all I know about him.
Mr. RoBixsox. You did have an interest in that business?
Mr. GiOE. Yes, sir.
Mr. Robinson. Were there anv others that you had an interest in?
Mr. GiOE. Prior to that?
Mr. Robinson. Yes.
Mr. GiOE. Yes. I was in business with Ralph Pearce and the two
Russell brothers.
Mr. Robinson. And what years were you in business with them?
Mr. GiOE. I would say it was 1937 to 1940.
Mr. Robinson. That was a partnership ?
Mr. GioE. Yes, sir.
Mr. Robinson. What sort of places ?
Mr. GiOE. We had an office on State Street in which we handled
some laj^-offs on horses on the books around the city at that time.
82 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Robinson, That was for what years, now?
Mr. GioE. I \toiild say it was 1937 to 1940.
Mr. Robinson. What business were yon in prior to 1937?
Mr. GiOE. Prior to 1937 I fooled around witli the printino- business,
but we didn't do hny good. Before that I didn't liave anytliing out-
side of the printing, I believe.
Mr. Robinson. What was the last time you saw Russell?
Mr. (tioe. Harry Russell?
Mr. Robinson. Yes.
Mr. GiOE. Oh, it has been a long time ago. I saw him one time
on Randolph Street when I came out on parole.
Mr. Robinson. You have seen him off and on when you came out on
parole?
Mr. GiOE. No, sir. I just ran across him one time on Randolph
Street.
Mr. Robinson. How about David Russell ?
Mr. GiOE. I have not seen him.
Mr. Robinson. The other partner was who, Ralph Pearce?
Mr. GiOE. Yes.
Mr. Robinson. How often do you see him ?
Mr. GiOE. I have not seen him. I saw him one time on Van Buren
and State Street.
Mr. Robinson. Who are your friends there at the Seneca Hotel?
You still live there, don't you?
Mr. GioE. Yes, sir.
Mr. Robinson. Who are your friends there ?
Mr. GiOE. Well, I have
Mr. Robinson. Who are the people you visit back and forth with
at the hotel, you and your wife?
Mr. GiOE. I have a sponsor who lives in the building, Louis Pelton.
Mr. Robinson. Who are some of the others ?
Mr. GiOE. Sidney Korshak.
Mr. Robinson. Who else ?
Mr. GiOE, Well, Mr. Greenberg lives in the building, but I don't
see him.
Mr. Robinson. Where is he ?
Mr. GiOE. I don't know. I understand he is in Europe.
Mr. Robinson. Who else?
(No response.)
Mr. Robinson. Who else do you and your wife visit back and forth
with at the hotel ?
Mr. GioE. Lincoln Plant.
Mr. Robinson. Anyone else?
Mr. GiOE. No, sir.
Mr. Robinson. Those are the only people that you have associated
with since you have gotten out on parole ?
Mr. GiOE. Yes, sir.
Mr. Robinson. You are sure of that?
Mr. GiOE. Yes, sir.
Mr. Robinson. Did you know Al Capone ?
Mr. GiOE. Yes, sir.
Mr. Robinson. When did you first meet him ?
Mr. GiOE. Very casually.
ORGANIZED CRIME' IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 83
Mr. Robinson. Describe it. Give the time and place and circum-
stances under which you met him.
Mr. GiOE. Well, I saw him on Twenty-second Street, that is all.
At the Midnight Frolics, a cafe. I believe it was that name, then.
Mr. Robinson. "V\^ien?
Mr. GiOE. That would be 1931.
Mr. Robinson. Do you remember that occasion very well?
Mr. GiOE. No. It is the first time I ever saw him.
Mr. Robinson. Who introduced him to you ?
Mr. GiOE. Nobod3^
Mr. Robinson. How did he know you ?
Mr. GiOE. He didn't know me. You asked me if I knew Al Capone.
]Mr. Robinson. Yes. You didn't meet him ?
Mr. GioE, No; I never had any dealings with him.
Mr. Robinson. Did you ever meet him ?
Mr. GiOE. No ; I just saw him at the cafe.
Mr. Robinson. Did you ever have any conversation ?
Mr. GioE. No, sir.
Mr. Robinson. Do you know Murray Humphreys ?
Mr. GiOE. Yes, sir.
Mr. Robinson. Where did you meet him ?
Mr. GiOE. I believe he at one time had a place at a club tliat was
in the same area.
Mr. Robinson. A bookie place?
Mr. GiOE. No ; it was not a bookie place. It was a speakeasy.
Mr. Robinson. Did he ever have any bookie places ?
Mr. GiOE. Not that I know of.
i\Ir. Robinson. How about Hymie Levin, do you know him ?
Mr. GiOE. Yes, sir.
jNIr. Robinson. Where is he living?
Mr. GioE. He lives on Chestnut Street.
Mr. Robinson. Not at the Seneca Hotel ?
Mr. GiOE. No, sir ; they are directly across.
Mr. Robinson. How long have you known him ?
Mr. GiOE. Well, I would say I know Hymie 14 years or so.
Mr. Robinson. Have you seen him since you got out on parole ?
Mr. GiOE. No, sir.
Mr. Robinson. Do you know Sam Hunt ?
Mr. GiOE. Yes, sir.
]\Ir. Robinson. How long have you known him ?
Mr. GiOE. Approximately the same time.
Mr. Robinson. Did you have any business connection with him?
Mr. GiOE. No, sir.
Mr. Robinson. Do you know Tony Accardo ?
Mr. GioE. Yes, sir.
Mr. Robinson. How long have you known him ?
Mr. GioE. We went to school together.
]\Ir. Robinson. Have you ever been in business with him ?
Mr. GiOE. No, sir.
Mr. Robinson. What business was he in ?
Mr. GioE. One time he was connected with the Okay Motor Service,
Mr. Robinson. Is that the only business that you know that he
was in ?
Mr. GiOE. No.
84 ORGANIZED CRIMEl IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Robinson. Tell some of the others that he was in.
Mr. GiOE. He had an interest with the Russell brothers in a different
location.
Mr. Robinson. Ralph Pearce, too?
Mr. GioE. I don't know about Rali)h. Ralph, I knew, had an
interest in the office with me.
Mr. Halley. When you say he had an interest with the Russell
brothers, you mean in their bookmakin^ business; is that right?
Mr. GiOE. Yes. They had a book down the street — I forget, I
think it is on Lake and Wabash.
Mr. Halley. And he was in the bookmaking business with the
Russell brothers ?
Mr. GiOE. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. Was that at a different time from when you were in
the bookmaking business with the Russell brothers ?
Mr. GiOE. That was a different type. He was in the room when I
had a piece of the office. You see, we had an office on State Street.
Accardo was a partner of the Russels in this room on Lake and
Wabash.
Mr. Halley, What happened in the office ? What kind of bookmak-
ing operations did you have there ?
Mr. GiOE. We would take some lay-offs.
Mr. Halley. From whom w^ould you take the lay-offs?
Mr. GiOE. Various books throughout the city.
Mr. Halley. Who were some of the people ?
Mr. GiOE. Well, we used to go usually by addresses, Joe Haas and
Frank Ryan. There were quite a few books at that time and they
would call in and give you a 10-, 20-, or 50-dollar bet.
Mr. Halley. What sort of a business did they do in the room down
where Accardo was in the business ?
Mr. GiOE. It was open to the bettors on the floor.
Mr. Halley. Was it in the same building ?
Mr. GiOE. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Where was that located ?
Mr. Gioe. On Lake and Wabash.
Mr. Halley. Thank you.
The Chairman. What other business did the Russell brothers have?
Mr. Gioe. They were in the tavern business, Senator. I believe
Dave had a place on Madison Street, and Harry, I think, had an in-
terest in what they call the Russell Silver Bar on Van Buren Street.
I understand he sold out his interest a few years after the war.
The Chairman. What else did they have an interest in ?
Mr. Gioe. I don't know.
The Chairman. Was Harry Russell a well-known gambler in
Chicago ?
Mr. Gioe. Yes, he was. He was a bookmaker.
The Chairman. Was he arrested a number of times ?
Mr. Gioe. I don't believe so.
The Chairman. Wliat other name did he go by ?
Mr. Gioe. I don't know. I know his family name, but I can't think
of it offhand. I guess he changed his name to Russell.
The Chairman. His name is really not Russell ?
Mr. Gioe. Yes ; I know he has a Jewish name, but I can't remember
what it was.
J
ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE CX)MMERCE 85
Mr. Halley. While we are on the subject, where did you get your
wire service?
Mr. GiOE. At the time ?
]Mr. Halley, Yes.
Mr. GioE. I don't know. Russell handled that. I think it was the
one that Annenberg had. That was the only wire service, I believe, at
the time.
]\Ir, Halley. The Continental Service?
Mr. GioE. If it was Annenberg, I don't know what the name of his
company was.
Mr. Halley. Nation-wide.
]Mr. GiOE. The one Annenberg had.
The CiiAiRMAx. Were Russell and Annenberg good friends?
Mr. GiOE. Supposedly.
The Chairman. How about Levin ? Was he a fellow up in the wire
service ?
Mr. Robinson. Hymie Levin.
Mr. GiOE. Yes, I spoke of him, but I didn't know anything about his
wire service.
The Chairman. Was he not in the same wire service ?
Mr. GioE. No ; not at the time. If he followed, he followed later on.
The Chairman. Were he and Russell good friends?
Mr. GiOE. I don't know how close they were. They knew each
other.
The Chairman. How do you know they knew each other?
Mr. GioE. Just by conversation, because he would call up and call
in a bet ever}^ now and then. Hvmie Levin.
The Chairman. That was back in 1940 ?
IVIr. GiOE. I would say 1940, thereabouts, maybe all the way back
to '37, '38, '39.
The Chairman. What happened to Russell ?
Mr. GiOE. I don't
Mr. Halley. Did you know Eddie O'Hare?
Mr. GiOE. Eddie O'Hare ; no sir.
Mr. Halley. Did you know Hugo Bennett ?
Mr. GiOE. Who?
Mr. Halley. Hugo Bennett.
]\Ir. GiOE, No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Do j^ou know Bill Johnston, Sportsmen's Park?
Mr. GiOE. I know who he is, but I don't have any
Mr. Halley. Did you ever meet him ?
IMr. GiOE. I met him very casually.
Air. Halley. Did you ever meet him with Russell ?
Mr. Gioe. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Or with Ralph Pearce?
Mr. Gioe. No, sir.
_ Mr. Robinson. I didn't get the answer clear to Mr. Halley's ques-
tion. Were you in business with the Russells and Pearce at the same
time that Accardo was in business with them ?
Mr. Gioe. No. The place was called Russell, Russell, Pearce and
Gioe. We filed a tax i-eturn under that name. We took lay-off from
different books. At that time Accardo was with Russell in a book
down tlie street.
Mr. Robinson. At the same time.
86 ORGANIZED CRi:\IEi IX IXTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. GiOE. Yes; but it was two different operations.
Mr. RoBixsox. Did you just take bets from places in Chicago?
Mr. GioE. Oh, we got some business from out of town.
ISIr. RoBixsox. AYhere?
Mr. GiOE. "Well, Kansas City, Omaha, Indiana. Michigan.
Mr. RoBixsox. Will you name some of the people you got bets,
from those areas ?
Mr. GiOE. There was one that came that we used to do exchange
business — Eddie Berrick. They were doing business with that
office. I didn't know Mr. Berrick at that time. I knew we were
doing business with that office. Russell being in this business had
what they called outlets. If you wanted to get rid of some money,
you called up the outs. That is what they called an "out." He
would call up different places. If the bet was too much, and he
wanted to move something, he moved it to these different bookmakers.
Mr. RoBixsox. That takes care of Omaha ?
Mr. GiOE. Yes, sir.
Mr. RoBixsox. How about Kansas City?
Mr. GiOE. At that time he was doing business with Tonv Gizzo and
Carollo.
Mr. RoBixsox. Did you say he was doing business?
Mr. GiOE. Russell's office.
Mr. RoBixsox. Weren't you doing business with them, too?
Mr. GioE. But I wasn't too familiar with the business at that time-
Mr. RoBixsox. He was the man doing it i
Mr. GiOE. Yes, sir.
Mr. RoBixsox. You had an interest in the business but he was
managing it.
]Mr. GioE. That is right.
Mr. RoBixsox. Who else in Kansas City?
Mr. GiOE. I don't know anybody else.
Mr. RoBixsox. How about St. Louis?
Mr. GiOE. I don't know who he did business in St. Louis ?
Mr. RoBixsox. What was the other city you named I
jSIr. GiOE. Xew York.
Mv. RoBixsox. Who in New York ?
]Mr. GiOE. I can't think of the fellow's name. I don't know if he-
had any connection at that time with Erickson's office. They used tO'
make layoffs in Xew York for the New York tracks.
Mr. RoBixsox. Did j^ou do any business with Erickson to your
knowledge ?
Mv. GiOE. No ; I wouldn't say to it,
Mr. RoBixsox. Did j'ou get any business from Erickson ?
Mv. GiOE. There was an office over there that I thought Erickson
might have been interested in at the time. Some fellow Green was
running the operation. I think Mr. Erickson might have been con-^
nected with that outfit at that time.
Mr. RoBixsox. How about Costello ?
Mr. GioE. I never heard of him being connected with him.
Mr. RoBixsox. Do you know him ?
Mr. GioE. No, sir.
Mr. RoBixsox. Well, what are the other cities now ?
Mr. GiOE. Well. Cincinnati, he was doing business with somebody,,
but I wouldn't remember the name. I remember we called different
places throughout the country.
ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 87
Mr. RoBiNsox. How about Florida ?
Mr. GiOE. We done business with Hialeah race track ri<>ht with the
track.
Mr. Robinson. Any of the hotels down there?
Mr. GiOE. No, sir. "
Mr. Robinson. That is the only one you can remember in Florida
just the track ? ' '
Mr. GiOE. That is right. We used to take the bet right into the
track.
The Chairman. How about the S. and G. in Florida, did you do
business with them?
Mr. GiOE. No, sir.
The Chairman. You did not know anything about that ?
Mr. GiOE. No, sir.
Mr. Robinson. Who was the one up in the New England area?
Mr. GiOE. I never
Mr. Robinson. Nobody in Boston ?
Mr. GioE. No, sir. I didn't know any.
Mr. Robinson. Well, can you think of any other areas ? How about
Caiiiornia ?
Mr. GioE. No; I never knew of anybody that did business there
Mr. Robinson. How about Indiana, out around Gary?
Mr, GioE. No. ■
lilr^ Robinson. Did you have any business from a place called the
Big House ?
Mr. GiOE. No, sir.
Mr. Robinson. William Sheetz ?
Mr. GioE. Not at that time, I don't believe.
Mr. Robinson. Any other time ?
Mr GioE. I am only going up to that time because it was the
only time I was m it.
Mr. Robinson. Hoav about William Gardner?
Mr. GioE. No.
Mr. Robinson. You don't know either one of them?
Mr. GioE. No, sir.
Mr' Gme'^No " ^"^ "^ ""'' '^""'''^ ^'^""^ """-^ ""^^'^'^ P^""®"^'' "' Indiana?
Mr. Robinson. How about Louisville ?
Mr. GiOE. No, sir.
Mr. Robinson. And nobody in California?
Mr. GioE. No.
Mr. Robinson. Do you know Jack Drawna?
Mr. GioE. No, sir. *
Mr. Robinson. John Roselli ?
Mr. GioE. Yes, sir.
Mr. Robinson. How about him ?
Mr. GioE. Johnny done time with me.
Mr. Robinson. You did business with him from 1937 to 1940?-
Mr. GiOE. In horses?
Mr. Robinson. Yes.
Mr. GiOE. No, sir.
]\Ir. Robinson. Never?
Mr. GioE. No, sir.
Mi\ Robinson. Do you know Roy Jones ?
88 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
;Mr. GioE. I have heard of him but I don't know him.
Mr. Robinson. Did you know Ragen?
Mr. GiOE. No, sir.
Mr. Robinson. Or Pat Burns ?
Mr. GioE. No, sir.
Mr. Robinson. McBride?
Mr. GioE. No, sir.
Mr. Robinson. None of them ?
Mr. GioE. No, sir.
Mr. Robinson. How long did you know Nitti ?
Mr. GiOE. I would say about 10 years.
Mr. Robinson. What was your association with him?
Mr. GiOE. Nothing, just that I met him around the old man's cigar
store at that time over on Clark Street, Alderman Kenny's place.
Mr. Robinson. How did you get tied up with him in this movie
business ?
Mr. GioE. I was never tied up in the movie business.
Mr. Robinson. You were not tied up with Nitti in any way?
Mr. GiOE. No, sir.
Mr. Robinson. You never saw him ?
Mr. GiOE. I never saw or had anything to do with it.
Mr. Robinson. How long have you known Campagna ?
Mr. GiOE. I would say approximately the same time.
Mr. Robinson. And you have done business with him ?
Mr. GiOE. No, sir.
Mr. Robinson. Had you been in business with him ?
ISIr. GiOE. No, sir.
Mr. Robinson. You were never in the gambling business with him?
Mr. GiOE. No, sir.
Mr. Robinson. What business was he m ?
Mr. GiOE. Campagna?
Mr. Robinson. Yes.
Mr. GiOE. I don't know.
Mr. Robinson. You don't know what business he was in ?
Mr. GiOE. He was out of Cicero. That is some place I never went to.
I knew he had a couple of saloons at the time.
]Mr. Robinson. You say he had a couple of saloons?
Mr. GiOE. He had an interest in some of those places in Cicero at
the time.
JSIr. Robinson. Now, 1937 to 1940, you were in partnership with
Pearce and the two Russells.
INIr. GiOE. Yes, sir.
Mr. Robinson. How much did you put into that ?
Mr. GiOE. Not very much money. I went out and solicited the
accounts and got some business for them. That was all I was inter-
ested in at the time.
ISIr. Robinson. Who did you solicit ?
Mr. GiOE. Various bettors.
Mr. Robinson. Well, who were some of them, some of the larger
ones ?
Mr. GiOE. Well, at that time there were quite a few of the ]5laces
around town, and I would go over there and talk to soniebody if I hap-
pened to know somebody and asked about the lay-otl business.
ORGANIZED CRIME' IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 89
Mr. RoBiNsox. Did you solicit Eicca ?
JMr. GiOE. No.
Mr. Robinson. Can't you think of any of the names ?
Mr. GiOE. Well, there was Dobkin.
Mr. Robinson. How about Peter Tremont?
Mr. (tioe. I don't know.
Mr. Robinson. Did you ever solicit him ?
Mr. GiOE. No, sir.
Mr. Robinson. Dobkin is known as a rather large commissioner.
Mr. (tioe. At that time he wasn't doing too much business. Joe
Grabner. Oscar Gutter.
Mr. Robinson. How about Harry Siganski ? Did you ever do any
business with him ?
Mr. Gioe. Harry Siganski ?
Mr. Robinson. Doc Siganski.
Mr. GiOE. No, sir. I cannot place the name at all.
Mr. Robinson. What did you say you put into this business, this
partnership ?
Mr. GiOE. I wouldn't say it was very much.
]Mr. Robinson. How much ?
Mr. GiOE. I wouldn't even remember the figure offliand. It could
not have been more than $1,000 or $2,000.
Mr. Robinson. How much did Russell put in ?
INIr. Gioe. I really don't know.
Mr. Robinson. How much did Pearce put in ?
Mr. Gioe. I don't know how much he put in.
Mr. Robinson. You were in partnership ?
]\Ir. Gioe. Yes.
Mr. Robinson. You didn't have an agreement.
Mr. Gioe. The Russell brothers put up the bankroll.
Mr. Robinson. And you got in for $1,000 ?
Mr. Gioe. A couple of thousand.
Mr. Robinson. How did that come about? How could you get in
with just $1,000?
Mr. Gioe. We were only booking on a small scale.
Mr. Robinson. Didn't it grow into a larger scale ?
Mr. Gioe. We did some volume.
Mr. Robinson. Let us take up the volume. How much volume of
business would you do ?
Mr. Gioe. Maybe some days we would do 3,000, some days 2,500,
some days we might do 3,500.
Mr. Robinson. How much would you do every year?
Mr. Gioe. Well, I couldn't give you that. If I could get the sheets
at the time
Mr. Robinson. Was that normal, two or three thousand dollars a
day?
Mr. Gioe. Yes. Sometimes we would have five or six thousand dol-
lars on a Saturday, stake races, and people would bet heavier on stake
races.
Mr. Robinson. What did you get out of it ?
Mr. Gioe. 25 percent.
Mr. Robinson. 25 percent ?
^Ir. Gioe. Of the winnings.
68958 — 51— pt. 5 — —7
90 ORGANIZED CRIMB IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Robinson. How was the rest of it split?
Mr. GiOE. The same way. ■ . ^ i
Mr. Robinson. You got 25 percent of the winnings lor a thousand
dollar investment ? r^ ■ ■ ^^
Mr. GiOE. For the small investment, I had 25 percent. Originally
I started out I got some of the business, I got a piece of that and then
they declared me on the whole thing rather than keep separate books.
It was like 50-50 book where you get 50 percent of the winnings back.
Mr. Robinson. Well, how much would you get out of that annually
for your 25 percent ? How much would that amount to ?
Mr. GiOE. It was never too much. I got seven or eight thousand
dollars, I believe. Six, seven, or eight thousand dollars.
Mr. Robinson. A year?
Mr. GiOE. Yes.
Mr. Robinson. That is all you got out of it ^ , , ,
Mr. GioE. That is all I got out of it. That is all the books show.
Mr. Robinson. Did you do some betting individually yourself?
Mr. GiOE. Very little.
Mr. Robinson. So your total income for those years would run
about six, seven, or eight thousand dollars a year from 1937 to 1940?
Mr. GiOE. It might have been a little more than that.
Mr Robinson. How much did Harry Russell get out of it?
Mr. GiOE. Harry Russell would bet beside booking. I wouldn t
Mr! Robinson. You don't know how much he got out of it?
Mr. GiOE. I wouldn't know what he won betting.
Mr. Robinson. Out of the business.
Mr. GiOE. That is what I mentioned. I thought it ran around
$7,000. .
Mr. Robinson. That each one of you got out ^
Mr. GioE. I believe so, yes. But he was a bettor. By that I mean,
if he thought the horse was any good, he would bet $500 or $200 or
$300
Mr. Robinson. You have been identified with the Capone syndicate,
isn't that right? ^ . -j .-^
Mr. GioE. The newspapers identified or whoever wants to identity
Mr. Robinson. You say you never have been associated with them
or done business with them' or been friendly with them ?
Mr. GiOE. Well, I know a lot of them, but what you call the Capone
syndicate
Mr. Robinson. You say you know a lot of them.
Mr. GioE. I mean the people you mention. You call them a syndi-
cate. ' You say I was associated with the syndicate.
Mr. Robinson. You said you knew a lot of them. Wlio are they i
Mr. GioE. These names tliat you mentioned, you asked about Mur-
rav Humphreys. I know these people.
Mr. Robinson. You associate them with the Capone syndicate i
Mr. GiOE. I don't associate anybody with any syndicate.
The Chairman. How about Ralph Capone, do you know him?
Mr. GiOE. No, sir; very casually.
The Chairman. How casually?
Mr. GioE. I just know him to see him. I never had anything to do
with him.
ORGANIZED CRIMEi IX INTERSTATE COIVIMETICE 91
Mr. Hallet. "Were you born in Chicago?
Mr. GiOE. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. How old are you?
Mr. GiOE. Forty-six.
Mr. Halley. When did you first met Al Capone? What year?
Mr. GiOE. I would say it was in the early thirties.
Mr. Halley. What were you doing at the time ?
Mr. GiOE. I was in the printing business and I was trying to sell
some tickets to the bookmakers.
Mr. Halley. In what printing business were you ?
Mr. GiOE. We called it a general ticket.
Mr. Halley. Who else was in the business ?
Mr. GiOE. There was Creighton, a Frank Kelly, O'Brien.
Mr. Halley. Did you have any other business at that time?
Mr. GiOE. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Was that your first business or had you had any other
business before that?
Mr. Gioe. No business.
Mr. Halley. You said you went to school with Tony Accardo ?
Mr. Gioe. Yes, we were born in the same neighborhood and went
to school together.
Mr. Halley. Where did you go to school together ?
Mr. Gioe. The Washington School.
Mr. Halley. Did you continue to see him after that?
Mr. GiOE. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. And what did he do when he got out of school ?
Mr. GioE. I don't know. He went to work for a wholesale grocer.
His father had a shoe shop, and he was Avith his father.
Mr. Halley. He went to work with Al Capone for a while.
Mr. Gioe. Not that I know of.
Mr. Halley. He was in the liquor business with him.
Mr. Gioe. If you know that, I don't.
Mr. Halley. 'You don't know that?
Mr. Gioe. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Did you see him during those days right after you
got out of school ? "^
Mr. Gioe. No ; I would see him on and oif.
Mr. Halley. I am trying to find out how you met all these people.
How did you happen to meet Al Capone. You say you were in the
printmg busmess. Could anybody in the printing business walk up
to Al Capone? ^
Mr. Gioe. No. There was no Capone in the printing business.
Mr. Halley. How did you get to meet him?
Mi\ Gioe. I told you in the early thirties I saw him at this cafe
that I made mention of.
Mr. Halley. ^Vliat cafe?
Mr. Gioe. The Frolics on Twenty-second Street.
Mr. Halley. What were you doing there ?
Mr. Gioe. I was cafe-ing."
Mr. Halley. Who introduced you to Capone ?
Mr Gioe. I M'as not introduced to him. I just saw him. In them
days he was around every night. When he asked me about Capone,
1 said yes, I knew him.
92 ORGANIZED CRIMEl IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Halley. Were you around there every night?
Mr. GiOE. No, sir. n, . i • o
Mr. Halley. When did yon first meet liim to talk to hun^
Mr. GiOE. I don't ever remember ever having talked to hnn.
Mr. Halley. You never met him at all ?
Mr GiOE. No; I just saw him around the place.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever talk to Al Capone ?
Mr. GiOE. No, sir. . vi i • 9
Mr. Halley. Never had a conversation of any kind witli liim «
Mr. Gioe. No, sir. . „ ,,^ -, ■ ' v
Mr. Halley. Never said, "Good morning, ' "Good evening, or
"Hello, Mr. Capone"?
Mr. GioE. No, sir. i * 1 r. 9
Mr Halley. No talk at all between you and Al Capone?
Mr. Gioe. No, no conversation. All I ever saw him was m that ca±e.
Mr Halley. When did you first meet Paul Ricca ? ^ , . , .^
Mr". Gioe. Ricca had a restaurant at the Blue Grotto, I think it was
called, and 1 would say that was maybe 1934 or 1035.
Mr. Halley. 1934 or 1935?
Mr. Gioe. I would say earlier than that, I believe.
Mr. Halley. Was it a speakeasy? .
Mr. Gioe. I believe it was before prohibition.
Mr. Halley. He sold liquor?
Mr Gioe. It was a restaurant, and he told liquor and wines.
Mr' H\LLEY. Where was the Blue Grotto located?
Mr*. Gioe. At Wabash and Congress or Van Buren.
Mr Halley. How did you first meet Ricca ? ,
Mr. Gioe. I just met him at the restaurant down there. -1
Mr Halley. Who introduced you?
Mr. Gioe. Well, you meet people and not necessarily througli in-
troductions. ^ T 1 /-.I • 1 ^4.
Mr Halley. You seem to have wandered around Chicago and got
to^know a lot of people and you don't seem to make it clear how you
met anybody. Did you meet Ralph Capone ?
Mr. Gioe. No, just casually. ^^ ^ ^ ^ . ^ .
Mr. Halley. Did you ever talk to Ralph Capone (
Mr. Gioe. No, I doirt believe so.
Mr. Halley. You never talked to him ?
Mr. Gioe. No, I never had anything to do with him.
Mr. Halley. You never said hello? n n 1 ^t
Mr. Gioe. You are trying to pin me down to say hello, but 1 never
had anything to do . 1 ^^
Mr. HallSy. I am not trying to pm you down. Did you know
Ralph Capone or didn't you ?
Mr Gioe. I would say I didn't know him.
Mr. Halley. Did you know him well enough to greet him and to
have him Gfreet you? , ,, ,.
Mr Gioe Well, if I have seen Ralph Capone maybe three times
in my whole life, or what was supposed to be Ralph Capone, it is the
Mr. Halley. Were you ever introduced to him ?
Mr. Gioe. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Never ? , „ ,, ^.
Mr. Gioe. No, sir, not to the best of my recollection.
ORGANIZED CRIME' IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 93
.INIr. Halley. How did you first meet Plarry Russell ?
Mr. GiOE. Ralph Pearce told me about this proposition.
Mr. Halley. How did you first meet Ralph Pearce ?
]Mr. GioE. I met him around Twenty-second Street when he was
around with Sam and the rest of the lads. I think it was during
prohibition.
jNIr. Halley. Sam ?
JSIr. Gioe. Sam Hunt.
]\Ir. Halley. That is "Golf Bag*" Hunt, isn't it ?
]\Ir. GiOE. Sam Hunt.
Mr. Halley. They call him '"Golf Bag" Hunt, don't they ?
Mr. Gioe. I don't know who does outside of the newspapers.
Mr. Halley. Did the newspapers call him that ?
Mr. Gioe. They refer to him as "Golf Bag."
]\Ir. Halley. What do you mean you were all around Twenty-sec-
ond Street ? That is very vague. What happened on Twenty-sec-
ond Street?
Mr. Gioe. Xothing. I told you I was in this printing business. I
was trying to solicit some of these fellows to give us some of the
business for the tickets. So I tried to contact whoever I knew would
be influential or knew this fellow or that fellow and try to get some
of the business.
^Ir. Halley. Was Pearce one of the people you contacted ?
Mr. Gioe. I believe so.
Mr. Halley. How did 3'ou get to meet Pearce? Who introduced
3"ou to him?
Mr. Gioe. I wouldn't remember.
Mr. Halley. Is it your testimony that you want this committee
to believe that you Avere in the printing business and you just wandered
around Chicago and tried to meet people and sell them tickets ?
Mr. Gioe. I am not trying to avoid answering the question. I just
can't think in my mind and say how did I meet this fellow^ and that.
Mr. Halley. Did* j^ou ever belong to the Union Siciliano ?
Mr. Gioe. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Never?
Mr. Gioe. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever hear of it ?
Mr. Gioe. It is a fraternal organization in Chicago.
Mr. Halley. Where is it located ?
Mr. Gioe. I don't know. At one time it was located at the Masonic
Temple.
Mr. Halley. On Washington Street?
Mr. Gioe. Yes, sir. It was an insurance office.
Mr. Halley. And had other purposes, too, didn't it?
Mr. Gioe. Not that I know.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever belong to it ?
Mr. Gioe. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever belong to the Italo- American League?
Mr. Gioe. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever hear of the Mafia?
Mr. Gioe. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. What have you heard of it ?
Mr. Gioe. What I read in the papers.
94 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE CO^IMERCE
Mr. Halley. Do you know whether or not there is such an organi-
zation as the Mafia from your own knowledge ?
Mr. GioE. From my own knowledge, I know ot no such organiza-
Mr. Hallet. Do you belong to any such organization?
Mr. GioE. No, sir. ...
Mr Halley. Now, I wish you would state again the circumstances
under which you were able to get a 25 percent interest m Harry Rus-
sell's business for $2,000, or one or two thousand dollars.
Mr. GiOE. I don't remember the exact figure. I said it was a couple
of thousand dollars at the time.
Mr Halley. That makes absolutely no sense at all. ,
Mr. GiOE. Well, I guess thev were just starting the business. This
Ealph Pearce says, "Let us take a piece of this, what you call it, be-
cause at that time we were soliciting for this ticket business for these
books. I said, "All right, I will take a piece with you." We put up a
little money and got some business for the office.
Mr. Halley. When you went into the bookmakmg business did you
go out of the ticket business?
Mr. GiOE. We sold out to Bentley-Murray.
Mr. Halley. What year did you sell out ?
Mr. GiOE. 1934: or 1935. I am vague on that. n , ^o>r o
Mr. Halley. What did you do for a living between 19o4 and 1937 i
Mr. Gioe. I didn't do much of anything.
Mr. Halley. Were you ever arrested ?
Mr. Gioe. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Were you ever convicted of a crime 5
Mr. Gioe. Yes. .
Mr. Halley. You were convicted, of course, on the movie extortion
case.
Mr. Gioe. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Do you now admit your guilt in that case or do you
still contend you were innocent?
Mr. Gioe. I still contend I was innocent.
Mr. Halley. Were you ever convicted of any other crime?
Mr. Gioe. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. How many times were you arrested ?
Mr. Gioe. Well, v;hat you call arrest, I was arrested maybe as far
as I can remember five or six times.
Mr. Halley. Could it be more ?
Mr. Gioe. No.
Mr. Halley. For what were you arrested ?
Mr. Gioe. AVell, more or less for general pick-ups. I was never
tried for a crime.
Mr. Halley. You never were tried except in the extortion case i
Mr. Gioe. That is right.
Mr. Halley. Between 1934 and 1937 you had no business at all i
Mr. Gioe. 1934 and 1937. , . ■ .
Mr. Halley. You said in 1937 you went into the bookmakmg busi-
ness with Russell.
Mr. Gioe. In 1937 I believe I was— in 1934 rather, or just belore
that— prior to that I messed around with some alcohol during prohibi-
tion.
Mr. Halley. Let us hear about the messing around.
I
ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 95
Mr. GiOE. I sold some to various customers who asked for it.
Mr. Halley. Where did you buy it ^
Mr, GioE. I bought it from various places where they had poolrooms
and places like that, where you made contact with the fellows that
manufactured it. I bought it and resold it to some customer from
out of town.
Mr. Halley. Did you have any partners in the alcohol business ?
Mr. GiOE. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. How much money had you accumulated when prohibi-
tion went out, that is, at the time of repeal ? How much money had
you accumulated !?
Mr. GiOE. I wouldn't know that.
Mr. Halley. Was it over $10,000 ?
Mr. GioE. I couldn't say whether it was $10,000 or $15,000.
Mr. Halley. Was it as much as $100,000?
Mr. Gioe. No.
Mr. Halley. You think you might have had $10,000?
Mr. Gioe. I could have accumulated $10,000.
The Chairman. Tell us your best estimate.
Mr. Gioe. My best estimate would be that I maybe made seven or
eight thousand dollars a year during prohibition or maybe $1,000.
Mr. Halley. Who else messed around with alcohol. Was Tony
Accardo one?
Mr. Gioe. I don't know. I believe he was. But I wasn't doing any
business with him.
Mr. Halley. At that time did you know Ricca ?
Mr. Gioe. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. When did you first meet Ricca ?
Mr. Gioe. Ricca I met, I think, they were selling a bottle champagne,
either he or somebody was connected with him, and I wanted to get
some for the Christmas holidays, there was some market for it, and
that is how I think I got to go to the Blue Grotto.
Mr. Halley. You mean to buy champagne ?
Mr. Gioe. It was synthetic champagne.
Mr. Halley. This was before prohibition?
Mr. Gioe. I would say it was around that time.
Mr. Halley. You needed the champagne for your customers ?
Mr. Gioe. Yes, for Christmas. Maybe I had a customer that
wanted four or five cases.
Mr. Halley. How much champagne would you say you bought
from Ricca before prohibition was repealed?
Mr. Gioe. Not much.
Mr. Halley. AVould you ssij that the deals amounted to a couple
of hundred dollars ?
Mr. Gioe. Couple of hundred dollars. Well, I didn't do too much.
If I picked up wine, it would be 5 or 10 cases, maybe a couple of times.
]Mr. H * LLEY. You say 3'ou didn't deal with him ?
Mr. Gioe. He had a partner by the name of Ralph something that
used to handle the business at that time.
Mr. Halley. Buglio?
Mr. Gioe. No; it was not Buglio. The name does not register.
Mr. Halley. When did you first meet Campagna ?
Mr. Gioe. I don't know Mr. Campagna too well. It could have
been around the same time, around the same years, say 1937, 1938, or
something.
96 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Hallet. How did you meet Campagna ?
Mr. GioE. Very vague in my mind how I came across him.
Mr. Halley. You knew Phil D'Andrea.
Mr. GiOE. He is one of the fellows convicted with us.
Mr. Halley. AVlien did you first meet him ?
Mr. GiOE. Well, Phil was interested in politics around that first
ward. I wouldn't say just when I met him, but he had some trucks
that were working for the city and he Avas pretty active in first ward
politics.
Mv. Halley. Were you active in first ward politics?
]\Ir. GiOE. Somewhat, not
Mr. Halley. Did you ever run for political office?
Mr. GiOE. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. What was your activity in the politics?
Mr. GiOE. Nothing, nothing at all, whatsoever.
Mr. Halley. What party were you active with. Democrat or Repub-
lican? ,. .
Mv. GiOE. I was an opportunist. If a Republican was m power,
I would ask him for favors, and if the Democrats were in power, I
would see the Democrats.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever make any contributions?
Mr. GiOE. No, sir ; not to amount to anything.
Mr. Halley. Did you contribute to one party or to the other or to
both?
Mr. GioE. No.
Mr. Halley. No contributions at all ?
Mr. GiOE. No. It could have been a very small thing, maybe $25 or
Mr. Halley. During prohibition, then, you were handling a little
liquor.
Mv. GiOE. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. Then you went into the printing business.
Mr. Gioe. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. Did you do that when prohibition was repealed ?
Mr. Gioe. No. We started that. I thought I saw where we might
get lucky and get into this type of business and make some money,
but it didn't pan out that way.
Mr. Halley. Did you lose money on it ?
Mr. GiOE. No ; we didn't make or lose too much money.
Mr. Halley. When vou sold out in 1934. what was your share?
Mr. Gioe. There were five partners in the business, but we owed so
much money that the other company took it over and paid off the
debts for us,' and took the company.
Mr. Halley. What did you live on between 1934 and 1937 when you
went into the betting business with Harry Russell ?
Mr. GiOE. Well, what did I live on? I did the best I could. I
was never a large liver,
Mr. Halley. When did you move into the Seneca Hotel i
Mr. Gioe. I would say 1942. .
Mr. Halley. Was it your wife who owned the stock m that, or you i
Mr. Gioe. My wife.
Mr. Halley. Who gave her the money to buy the stock i
Mr. Gioe. I did. I gave Mr. Greenberg the money.
ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 97
Mr. Hallet. How much money did you pay for the stock in the
feeneca ?
Mr. GiOE. I think it was around $12,000.
Mr. Halley. When did you buy the stock ?
Mr. GiOE. 1939 or 1910. ^ I believe that was the year.
x^^^^;.-^-^^^^^'- ^^^l^ere did you live before you moved into the Seneca
Hotel ?
Mr. GiOE. 4300 Marine Drive.
Mr. Halley. How long did you live there?
Mr. GioE. About 2 years.
Mr. Halley. Where did you live before that ?
Mr. Gioe. Over in a place on the west side at Kedsey Boulevard
and I can't think of the street that runs the other way. '
Mr. Halley. You had no means of earning a living as far as I can
see between 1934'and 1937, is that right ?
Mr. GiOE. I was trying to place what I was doing in 1934.
Mr. Halley. You said you closed out the printing business.
Mr. Gioe. In 1934 I lived in Iowa, I believe.
Mr. Halley. What were you doing in Iowa ?
Mr. Gioe. At that time we used to bring alcohol from Wisconsin to
Iowa.
Mr. Halley. Who did that?
Mr. Gioe. Myself.
Mr. Halley.^ Who else?
Mr. Gioe. It was just the fellows that used to buy it. There was a
leJlow by the name of Johnny who used to get the alcohol and send
it down by one of his drivers.
Mr Halley. Who gave you your protection during the prohibition
days i Did you get that from the Capone syndicate ?
Mr. Gioe. No protection from any Capone syndicate.
Mr. Halley. You could not just go out and peddle liquor in Chicago
without making peace with somebody.
Mr. Gioe. I never had anv trouble.
Mr. Halley. Did Vogel live at 4300 ^larine Drive, too?
Mr. Gioe. I don't know whether he lived there before or after I did
Mr. Halley. Did he live there ?
Mr. Gioe. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. Did you have any other friends in that building?
Mr. Gioe. At the time when I lived there I don't believe there was
anybody living m there. There was Paul Mann living in the build-
ing. That is the fellow who employed me. That is all I can
remember.
Mr. Halley. He isn't just the man that is a customer. He is a
man 3^ou have known for some time.
Mr. Gioe. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. When did you first meet Paul Mann ?
Mr. Gioe. I knew him casually. I met him in the restaurant, iust
like a customer that you get friendly with.
Mr. Halley. In what restaurant?
Mr. Gioe. The Beachcomber.
Mr. Halley. When did you buy the stock in the Beachcomber?
Mr. Gioe. We started that business.
Mr. Halley. When did vou invest in the Beachcomber^
Mr. Gioe. I believe it was 1939 or 1940.
98 ORGANIZED CRIME' IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Halley. How much money did you invest in that?
Mr. GiOE. I will have to get the records. I could not tell you off-
hand and be down to a figure.
The Chairman. Tell us approximately.
Mr. GiOE. I don't know what the thing cost. I promoted the thing.
It hardly cost me anything, because I had the idea and I saw this
Beachcomber and saw the operation there, and saw the location and
made mention of it to Jacobson and Fitsell, if they like the location
what they could do with it. They looked into it and thought it would
be a good idea if we could get Beachcomber interested m it. He came
down and I took a little interest in it.
Mr. Halley. What percentage?
Mr. GioE. Seventeen percent.
Mr. Halley. That is not such a little interest, 17 percent.
Mr. GiOE. Well, it was a restaurant that didn't cost too much to
put up. „ ^ ^ ^ „
Mr. Halley. What did you pay for your 1 i percent i
Mr GiOE. I don't know if it was $5,000, $7,000 or how much I
put in there. I would have to get the records. You are taking me back
quite a while. ,,^ .„ , i m ^.i,
Mr. Halley. Let us go back to 1934. We will go back even further.
You sold out the printing business.
Mr. GioE. Yes, sir. , . ,. . . t f
Mr. Halley. Then you were bootlegging liquor into Iowa ±rom
Wisconsin.
Mr. GioE. At the same time, I will say.
Mr. Halley. How long did you do that?
Mr. GioE. You mean how long did I
Mr. Halley. Take liquor into Iowa.
Mr. GioE. Oh, since maybe 1928.
Mr. Halley. Since 1928?
Mr. GioE. 1928 or 1929. . .i . -u • 9
Mr. Halley. When did that end, when did you stop that business i
Mr GioE. When prohibition went out of effect. _ _
Mr.' Halley. When you took liquor into Iowa, were you driving a
truck ?
Mr. GioE. No; automobile.
Mr. Halley. You took automobile loads ?
Mr. GioE. Yes. -, ,. q
Mr. Halley. Where did you buy that liquor ?
Mr GiOE. There was a place on Grand and Green, a few people
around there that had it. In them days you could get as much as
you want during prohibition.
Mr. Halley. Did you know Greenberg m those days i
Mr. GioE. No, sir.
:Mr. Halley. When did vou first meet Greenberg^
Mr. GiOE. I just don't remember when I first met Greenberg.
Mr. Halley. Do you Imow the Fischettis ?
Mr. GioE. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Rocco?
Mr. Gioe. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. When did you first meet him?
Mr. Gioe. I did business with him about, I would say, 1937 or 1938.
Mr. Halley. What kind of business ?
ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 99
Mr. GiOE. He liad a place on Wabash Avenue.
Mr. Halle Y. What kind of a place did he have?
Mr. GiOE. A horse book.
Mr. Hallet. What kind of business did you do with him?
Mr. Gioe. Over the telephone.
Mr. Hallet. Lay-off business ?
Mr. GiOE. Yes. sir.
Mr. Halley. Did he lay off with the Russells?
Mr. GiOE. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Charles Fischetti ?
Mr. GiOE. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. How long do you know him?
Mr. Gioe. Api^roximately the same time.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever do business with him ?
Mr. GiOE. No : on the same basis.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Anthony Capezio ?
Mr. GiOE. He comes from my neighborhood on the west side. I
never done any business with him.
Mr. Halley. How long do you know him ?
Mr. GiOE. I have known him quite a while just to know him. He
came from my neighborhood.
Mr. Halley. Did you go to school with him ?
JMr. GiOE. No, sir,
Mr. Halley. Do you know Rocco DeGrazio ?
Mr. GiOE. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Nicolo Impostato ?
Mr. GioE. I didn't get the name.
Mr. Halley. Impostato.
Mr. GiOE. No, sir.
Mr. Halley, You don't know him ?
Mr. GiOE. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Tony Antonelli ?
Mr. Gioe. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Tony Bello ?
Mr. GiOE. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Let us go back now to this period between 1934 and
193^. I am very much interested in finding out what you were doino-
in that time. ^
Mr. GioE. W^ell
Mr Halley. How long was it still profitable to run liquor into
iowa « •
Mr. GiOE. Around the end, when prohibition was repealed, there
was a little market there for a while. I don't know if that ended in
about 1935.
Mr. Halley. Then what did vou do after 1935 ?
Mr. GioE. I didn't do much of anything that I can remember at this
time.
Mr. Halley So for 2 or 3 years you had no business at all ?
Mr GioE. f^o- I don't know whether I went in with the Russells
the latter part of 1936 or 1937. It was around that time.
Mr. Halley. How long were you out of work?
Mr. GiOE. Well I was never out of work. I was always trying to
do something, looking for something. ^ ^ »
100 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Halley. What were you trying to do? What would you say
was your business at that time ?
Mr. GioE. I went in with a fellow into the wrestling promotion
business.
Mr. Halley. With whom ?
Mr. GioE. A fellow by the name of Pinkey George.
Mr. Halley. How long?
Mr. GiOE. I messed around with it for about a year.
Mr. Halley. Did you make any money with it?
Mr. GioE. No ; not too much money.
Mr. Halley. What end were you in? Did you manage wrestlers i
Mr. Gioe. No.
Mr. Halley. Did you put on shows ?
Mr Gioe. He didn't have too much money and I had enough to
cover to put on a show. It might cost us two or three hundred dollars.
Mr. Halley. Where did you do that ?
Mr. Gioe. Through the small towns in Iowa.
Mr. Halley. But not in Chicago ?
Mr. Gioe. No, sir.
^Ir Halley. Yon testified some time ago that the reason you were
able to get such a deal with Russell was that you were circulating
around Chicago at that time selling printing so you knew everybody.
But it turns out now that you went in with Russell about 3 years after
you left the printing business, and in those 3 years you were not doing
much of anything except bootlegging in Iowa, and putting on wrestling
shows. How did you get the contacts that made you worth 25 percent
to Russell? ^ , ^ ^ ' ^ £ ^^ • i.
Mr. Gioe. I didn't get any contact. I told you I ]ust fell into
something. .
Mr, Halley. I think you muscled into something, and I am trying
to find out how.
Mr. Gioe. I didn't muscle in. I am not a muscle man.
Mr. Halley. We will form that conclusion. Apparently your
earlier statement was wrong, wasn't it? You said you were circulat-
ing around Chicago selling printing.
Mr. Gioe. That is right.
Mr. Halley. But that was years before. You weren t selling print-
ing at the time vou were trving to get the bookmaking business. _
]SIr. Gioe. I got to know people that were in that business and I tried
to sell them tickets.
INIr. Halley. You didn't get to know bookmakers when you were
selling tickets.
Mr. Gioe. That was the ticket I was printing.
Mr. Halley. What kind of ticket ?
Mr. Gioe. The safety ticket.
Mr. Halley. What kind? .
Mr. Gioe. It was new at the time. It was an innovation. It was
foolproof, that you could not be past-posted. There was a carbon
copy on the back of it. These people had this ticket and came to this
little printing plant that we had, printing the old-type ticket. So we
took this ticket and put it on the market at the time. It is the only
ticket being used today. It took on. But we didn't have enough money
at the time and it got 'bigger and bigger and then there was a close-up
of the books so we folded up.
OEGA]S^ZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 101
Mr. Hallet. You must have known something about the book-
making business at that time, when you went into the printing business.
Mr. GiOE. Not too much.
Mr. Hallet. Well, a little bit.
Mr. GiOE. This fellow O'Brien, the one that had the idea of the
tickets, IS the one that brought it over to this little printing office.
Mr. KoBiKSOK. What is his other name?
Mr. GiOE. He is from the south side. I can't think of it. You see,
this was back in 1932 or 1933 or 1934. I coulchi't think of his first
name olf'hand.
Mr. Halley. Didn't your company print liquor labels ?
Mr. GiOE. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. For whisky bottles ?
Mr. GioE. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. And didn't you print tax stamps ?
Mr. GioE. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Isn't that really why you went into that printing
business { ^ ^
Mr. GiOE. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Do you want to stand on that answer?
Mr. GioE. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. Did the company never have anything to do with
printing whisky labels or liquor labels ?
Mr. GiOE. No, sir.
,,,^,{[;.^^^^Y- ^^'fi'® you ever associated with any company that had
anything to do with printing whisky labels ? -^ ^ ■>
Mr. GioE. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Were you ever associated with any company that had
boYtles?^ printing tax stamps for whisky bottles or liquor
Mr. Gioe. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. You will stand on that answer under oath?
Mr. GioE. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. And your statement is that the only thino- your com-
pany printed was these tickets ? ^ *= ^
Mr. GiOE. The tickets.
Mr. Halley. And so in that way you got to know them?
Mr W.?' i!^'? *^'^^ v^^- ^ ^^^ familiar with a lot of the books,
them ti7ketsr' ^'''' ^'^ ^"^ ^"'''^ ^^'^ ""^^^ "^^^"^^^ ^o sell
Mr. GioE. I sold them tickets.
Mr. Halley. But the business didn't prosper?
Mr Gioe. It didn't prosper because the business closed up for 18
t?ia?time. '' ^"' '^'' '"^^ ^"^^ "^ P^'"^^"^^ ^^ ^^^^ doing at
Mr. Hallet. And then, when you went back into the business it
s your testimony that you had enough friends so that Ha?ry tus-
sell gave you 25 percent of his business ? ^
Mr. Gioe. Yes ; I could give him some business.
Mr. Halley How much of this business did you get?
Mr GiOE. How much of the business did I get? I went out and
opened up some accounts. . ^ '"^^"^ ^^^ ^^^
Mr. Halley. How many accounts did you open ?
102 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INfTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. GioE. Well, maybe I got 10 or 20. I don't remember.
Mr. Hallet. Well, name those that you got.
Mr. GiOE. I went to the lay-offs, and I went to these smaller books,
where they got a $20 bet. I went in for small stuff. I couldn't
afford to take big gamblers at the time. You know what I mean.
So a lot of these people, they get a $20 bet on a 10-to-l place; they
w^ant some place to lay it off, because they can't stand to lose that
much on one race. So I knew a few that were in business at the
time, and I got some of their business.
Mr. Halley. Did you account for as much as a thousand dollars
a day of business?
Mr. GiOE. I would say so.
Mr. Halley. You personally would bring in a thousand dollars a
day ? 1 1 1 •
Mr. GioE. Not every day. But some days that account would brmg
in $4,000.
Mr. Halley. Would you say you brought m half of Harry Rus-
sell's business ?
Mr. GiOE. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Did you bring in a quarter of it?
Mr. GiOE. Well, I "brought in some business.
Mr. Halley. You brought in some business ?
Mr. GiOE. I brought in some business.
Mr. Halley. But you took no part of the loss. You only had a
quarter of the profits ? , i i
Mr. GioE. On the basis of a 50-50 book, you take no loss, and
you only get 50 percent of the winnings, and the bookmaker takes
the loss, in order to get the account. That is how it originally started.
But it didn't develop that way until 25 percent of the losses came m
there.
Mr. Halley. You mean you would have 25 percent of the loss, if
there was a loss ?
Mr. GiOE. That is right. . , •
The Chairman. May I ask one or two questions ? I see here m this
book the license of your construction company is Frank B. Pantaleo
and Charles J-o-y-e. Is that your name ? How do you pronounce your
name, or spell your name?
Mr. Gioe. In 1934 I went to court and changed it from G-i-o-e to
J-o-y-e.
The Chairman. What did you do that for?
Mr. Gioe. Because of the difficulty of the spelling and pronouncing
tllP IlclIllG
The Chairman. So, in the beginning it was G-i-o-e ?
Mr. Gioe. No, G-i-o-e was my family name, but I changed it to
The Chairman. What kind of name is that ? J-o-y-e?
Mr. Gioe. I don't follow you, sir.
The Chairman. I mean, are you Italian?
Mr. Gioe. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. So, in 1934, you changed your name to J-o-y-e«
Mr. Gioe. Yes, sir. -r , ^ir ^ o
The Chairman. Now, in 1930, did you know Jack McGurn i
Mr. GiOE. Yes; I would know him around that time.
Mr. Robinson. What did he do ?
ORGANIZED CRIME. IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 103
The Chairman. Was he called "Machine-Gun Jack McGurn?"
Mr. GiOE. Yes.
The Chairman. How did you happen to know him ?
Mr. GioE. Well, he was around with Tony Accardo.
The Chairman. And about that time do you remember when there
was a massacre down at Fox Lake, 111. ?
Mr. GiOE. Fox Lake, 111. ?
The Chairman. Yes, in which three fellows were killed.
JNIr. GiOE. I don't know anything about it, Senator.
The Chairman. Were you not arrested with Machine-Gun Jack
McGurn about 1930 in an automobile at Twenty-second and Loomis
Street?
Mr. GiOE. I was arrested with him once.
The Chairman. Well, where were you arrested ?
Mr. GioE. I was just trying to think. I don't know if it was Twenty-
second and Loomis.
The Chairman. Well, you were arrested with him ; weren't you ?
Mr. GiOE. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. What were you doing with him then ?
Mr. GiOE. Just riding with him.
The Chairman. Was he a good friend of yours?
Mr. GiOE. No ; not particularly at the time. I just got to know the
fellow.
The Chairman. You were both armed at that time: were you not?
]\Ir. GiOE. AVhen I was with Jack McGurn ? No, sir.
The Chairman. Was he not a rather notorious killer?
Mr. GiOE. Well, I don't know if he was a killer, but I didn't
know
The Chairman. Pretty rough fellow ; was he not ?
Mr. GiOE. He was an ex-boxer. That is all I know about him.
The Chairman. Is he still living ?
Mr. GiOE. No, sir.
The Chairman. And about the next year you and Tony Accardo
got arrested together; did you not?
Mr. GiOE. Yes, sir; the next year or sometime we got arrested. I
don't know the year.
The Chairman. Carrying concealed weapons?
Mr. GiOE. They charged us with carrying concealed weapons.
The Chairman. What were you carrying concealed weapons for?
Mr. GiOE. I wasn't carrying a concealed weapon.
The Chairman. Was Joe Batters with you at that time?
Mr. GioE. That is Tony Accardo.
The Chairman. Oh, yes ; that is Tony Accardo.
Now, you said you were in jail the second time. Did you get back
in jail after you got out on parole?
Mr. GiOE. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Where ?
Mr. GiOE. I was picked up at 5 o'clock in the morning at home and
taken to the penitentiary.
The Chairman. How long did you stay in, the second time ?
Mr. GioE. Six months.
The Chairman. Was that for violating your parole?
Mr. GioE. Yes, sir.
104 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
The Chairman. What did you do to violate it?
Mr. GiOE. Nothing.
The Chairman. Who said you violated it?
Mr. GioE. The parole board.
The Chairman. What did they charge you with?
Mr. GiOE. Changing jobs without permission.
The Chairman. Had you done that?
Mr. GiOE. No, sir.
The Chairman. You said a minute ago that you were m the liquor
business with DeLucia or Kicca, or that you knew he was in the liquor
business.
Mr. GiOE. No; at the time he had this restaurant, this Blue Grotto
down on Wabash Avenue.
The Chairman. On what avenue ?
Mr. GiOE. Wabash Avenue.
The Chairman. Was that a liquor place, a speakeasy ?
Mr. GioE. No ; it was a restaurant. And, of course, they sold wine,
beer, and liquor in them days. In fact, he had a couple of restaurants.
I think he had one on Market Drive at one time.
The Chairman. Was that the Mr. DeLucia who has been here
today ?
Mr. GiOE. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And what liquor business was he m ?
Mr. GioE. I don't know.
The Chairman. Well, was he in the liquor business ?
Mr. GioE. No, but he had this Kalph with him, I believe. They
made this champagne, this synthetic champagne.
The Chairman. They made synthetic champagne? Ralph who?
Mr. GiOE. I can't thiiik of his last name.
The Chairman. Where did they make it ?
Mr. GiOE. I don't know.
The Chairman. How do you know they made it?
Mr. GiOE. They claimed they made it, or bought it from somebody.
I couldn't tell you. But I bought it from this Ralph.
The Chairman. And he was in business with DeLucia ?
Mr. GioE. That is right. He had the restaurant with him.
The Chairman. What years was that ? During the thirties ?
Mr. GioE. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Or was that before prohibition ?
Mr. GioE. Well, it's got to be before prohibition, Senator. I mean,
before repeal ended prohibition.
The Chairman. You knew that this Ralph and DeLucia were part-
ners in that business— didn't you— in that champagne business?
Mr. GiOE. They had this restaurant. I gathered that they were.
The Chairman. You operated in Kansas City— did you not — at
one time?
Mr. GioE. No, sir.
The Chairman. Never came out to Kansas City ?
Mr. GioE. I have been in Kansas City.
The Chairman. What did you go there for ?
Mr. GiOE. I was in Kansas City, there, for a couple of weeks.
The Chairman. What was that for?
Mr. GiOE. At that time I was
ORGAXIZED CRIME. IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 105
Tlie Chairman. You remember when vou were in Kansas City
W iien was it ? -^
Mr. GiOE. I was just trying to think if it was 1936 or 1937
ihe Chairman. All right. What were you doing there ?
xMr GiOE. >>ell, I tried to get some business, some telephone busi^
ness, lor the Russell office.
The Chairjman. Did you get run out of town ?
Mr. GioE. Out of Kansas City ?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. GiOE. Not that I know of; no, sir.
The Chairman. Who did you see in Kansas City ?
Mr. GioE. It was Gus Spozzateri. He had a restaurant.
ihe Chairman. He had a restaurant «
Mr. GioE. Yes.
??® Chairman. And did you do some business for Russell ?
Mr. GiOE. We got some business for his office. At that time there
was :^pozzateri and Tony Gizzo and Charlie Carollo.
Tlie Chairman. Did tony Gizzo give vou some business?
Mr. GiOE. Through that office.
The Chairman. What office ?
. ^^;\ 9^0E. Spozzateri and Gizzo and Charlie Carollo had an office
m which they took the horses or took bets with different iieople For
instance il they had too much on a horse, thev would call us up, and
we would take some. " i ? ^
noH^^ Chair3ian. They had tlie news service down there, did they
Mr. GiOE. In 1936 ?
The Chairman. Well, whenever it was that you were down there.
Mr. GiOE. No, sir, I don t think so.
The Chairman. Thev had a horse parlor, thou^rh?
Mr. GiOE. I believe so. Yes. "^ '
The Chairman. And so you got their business, their lay-off busi-
ness, for you and the Russell boys ?
Mr. GiOE. Right, I got some of it.
^ The Chahjman. Who else did you get business from in Kansas
Mr GioE. That was all. Well, through him I imagine later on we
might have developed some more, but I couldn't say offhand lust how
much business we got out of him.
The Chairman. Who else did you do business with down there «
Mr. GiOE. In Kansas City ?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. GiOE. I really don't know, Senator, if we did any business with
anybody else down there.
The Chairman. Now who is this Mr. Dillon that helped to ar-
range to get you a parole ?
Mr. GiOE. I never met the man.
The Chairman. You knew of him, did you not?
Mr. GiOE. Just what I read in the paper
a ]Solef ''''''^'''' ^'■^"^^t- Louis? Did you know somebody got you
Mr. GiOE. No, sir.
68958— 51— pt. 5 8
106 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
The Chairman. Did you pay somebody to get you one?
Mr. GiOE. No, sir.
The Chairman. You did not know anything about Mr. Dillon «
Mr. GiOE. No, sir. . • . , • -d , -i /^i i
The Chairman. Did you have a connection with this Ketaii L^ierKs
International Protective Association?
Mr. GiOE. No, sir. ...
The Chairman. Did you ever have any connection with any union
.activities ?
Mr. GioE. No, sir.
The Chairman. Were you ever a member ot the union «
Mr. GiOE. No, sir. .
The Chairman. How about the Bartenders Union i
Mr. GiOE. No, sir. -rx i , .i o
The Chairman. How large a hotel is this Seneca Hotel, by the way i
Mr. GiOE. It is 16 stories. I don't know how many units they have.
I imao-ine they have four-hundred-some-odd units.
The Chairman. And at the Seneca Hotel you said Mr. Greenberg
was one of your people that visited you ?
Mr. GiOE. Yes. t^ i i
The Chairman. And you mentioned another lawyer, Korshak,
Sidney Korshak ?
Mr. GioE. Yes. . ....
The Chairman. Did you see him frequently? Did he visit with
you?
Mr. GiOE. Not too frequently.
The Chairman. Is he a lawyer in Chicago ?
Mr. GioE. Yes, sir. ■
The Chairman. Does he represent you in legal matters? 1
Mr. GiOE. No, sir. I
The Chairman. Well, does he visit with all these people you have
been talking about, like Tony Accardo and Greenberg and these other
people ?
Mr. GiOE. Well, I don't know who he visits w^th, but I have known
Sidney a long time, just as friends.
The Chairman. How long have you known him ?
Mr. GioE. I would say I knew Sidney maybe 16 or 17 years.
The Chairman. You were not in school with him, were you ?
Mr. GiOE. No, sir.
The Chairman. How did you get to know him ?
Mr. GiOE. Through some fellows on the West Side when he just
opened his office. He had just finished school and opened an office, I
believe, about that time.
The Chairman. What fellows ?
Mr. GiOE. Oh, some kids he knew around there that I just happened
to know. It was just a casual acquaintance at the time when I met
him, just as a lawver. That is all. I think he handled a deal for
them in regard to^a cafe or something. That was the first time I
met him.
The Chairman. How about this State Senator Brady? Do you
know him ?
Mr. GioE. No, sir.
The Chairman. Who did you do business with in St. Louis?
ORGAMZED CRIMEi IX LSTTERSTATE COMMERCE 107
Mr. GioE. I have never been to St. Louis more than just to pass
through. I never knew anybody there.
The Chairman". Do you know Tom Whelan in St. Louis?
Mr. GiOE. Xo, sir.
The Chairman. Do you know Mr. Molasky down there?
Mr. GiOE. No, sir.
The Chairman. Bill Brown, Mr. Brown in the Wire Service?
Mr. GiOE. No, sir.
The Chairman. Who was your contact in St. Louis?
Mr. GioE. I had no contact in St. Louis. I think Russell was
■originally from St. Louis. He done business with the people in St.
Louis. There were different officers. There was an officer by the name
of Cooper, I believe, and something else, at the time.
Mr. Robinson. Do you know of the American Distillery Co. ?
Mr. GiOE. Yes, sir.
Mr. Robinson. Have you done business with them ?
Mr. GioE. No, sir.
Mr. Robinson. How did you get acquainted with that company ?
Mr. GiOE. Through Jack Steele.
Mr. Robinson. Who ?
Mr. GiOE. Jack Steele.
Mr. Robinson. Who is he ?
Mr. GiOE. Jack Steele, who handled the American Distilling Co.
products.
Mr. Robinson. And did you work with Steele ?
Mr. GiOE. No, sir.
Mr. Robinson. Do you know the Rothbergs ?
Mr. GiOE. Of American Distilling?
Mr. Robinson. Yes.
Mr. GiOE. One Rothberg.
Mr. Robinson. Which one is that ?
Mr. GiOE. I believe it is Sam Rothberg.
Mr. Robinson. How long have you known him ?
Mr. GiOE. I have probably met him two or three times.
Mr. Robinson. And do you know the Rose that is connected with
the Rothbergs ?
Mr. GiOE. I don't ; no, sir.
Mr. Robinson. Did you know Bugsy Siegel ?
Mr. GiOE. No, sir.
Mr. Robinson. Who handles the business for American Distilleries
in Chicago?
Mr. GiOE. Right now ?
Mr. Robinson. Yes.
Mr. GiOE. I understood Jack Steele gave it up, and Eddie King,
who is counsel for the American Distillery in New York, Marshall
Korshak, Sidney Korshak's brother — I don't know whether Sidney
is interested — and one of the other Korshaks
Mr. Robinson. Who is Marshall Korshak ?
Mr. GiOE. Marshall Korshak is an attorney.
Mr. Robinson. He is not in partnership with Sidney?
Mr. GiOE. No; he is an attorney, but I think he has something to
• do with the whisky company in Chicago.
Mr. Robinson. And who is Eddie King?
108 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INrTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. GiOE. Eddie King is the counsel for American Distilling. And
lie used to be a lawyer around Chicago.
Mr. Robinson. He used to be in partnership with Sidney Korshak,
did he not?
Mr. GiOE. I don't know whether he was a partner. They might
have been in the same law office. I don't know wdiether they were
partners.
Mr. Robinson. Do you know James Curry ?
Mr. GiOE. No, sir.
Mr. Robinson. Never heard of him ?
Mr. GioE. James Curry? No, sir.
Mr. Robinson. Do you know Conto ?
Mr. GiOE. No.
Mr. Robinson. Do you know Joe Fusco, of the Gold Seal ?
Mr. GiOE. I know of him.
Mr. Robinson. Have you done any business with him ?
Mr. GioE. No, sir.
Mr. Robinson. Do you know Joe Peskin?
Mr. GiOE. No, sir.
Mr. Robinson. Never heard of him ?
Mr. GiOE. No, sir.
Mr. Robinson. Sugar Joe Peskin?
Mr. GiOE. No, sir.
Mr. Robinson. It is a fact that you have known Greenberg pretty
intimately ; isn't that right ?
Mr. GiOE. Yes. I mean intimately, that I just had that deal with
him.
Mr. Robinson. And you know this, too : that he was fairly intimate
with Al Capone ?
Mr. GiOE. Well, I wouldn't know that.
Mr. Robinson. Didn't he take over Capone's Manhattan Brewery ?
Mr. GiOE. I don't know.
Mr. Robinson. You know the Canadian- Ace Brewery?
Mr. GiOE. Right. But I don't know any of the background.
Mr. Robinson. You don't have any interest in Canadian- Ace ?
Mr. GiOE. No, sir.
Mr. Robinson. Now, in this business with Russell and Pierce, I
don't know whether I mentioned it, but did you have some contact,
or a person with whom you did business, in New Orleans ?
Mr. GiOE. I don't believe so.
Mr. Robinson. You didn't have anyone there that you did business
with?
Mr. GiOE. No. They might have done some business, but I never
knew anyone down there that they did business with.
Mr. Robinson. How about Philadeli^hia ?
Mr. GiOE. None.
Mr. Robinson. You never did any busines with Herman Taylor in
Philadelphia?
Mr. GiOE. No, sir.
Mr. Robinson. You never heard of that name ?
Mr. GioE. He is a fight promoter.
Mr. Robinson. Yes.
Mr. GiOE. I have heard of the name.
1
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE • 109
Mr. Robinson. But you did not do business with him ?
Mr. GioE. No, sir.
Mr. Robinson. How did you happen to meet him ?
:Mr. GioE. I didn't meet liim. You asked me if I heard of liim.
I know Taylor is a fight promoter.
Mr. Robinson. You never visited with him or never met him ?
]\Ir. GioE. No, sir.
Mr. Robinson. How about in Washington, here ?
INlr. GiOE. This is the first time I have been here.
]\fr. Robinson. No, did you do any business, while you were in
this partnership, with anyone in Washington?
Mr. GioE. I don't think so.
]\rr. Robinson. Did you do any business with anyone by the name of
Beard?
Mr. GiOE, No, sir.
]\f r. Robinson. You never heard of him ?
IVIr. GiOE. No, sir.
Mr. Robinson. You said you did know Eddie Vogel?
Mr. (iioE. I know of him.
Mr. Robinson. You know what business he is in ?
]\f r. GiOE. I understand he is in the slot-machine business.
Mr. Robinson. You never had any interest in that business at all ?
Mr. GiOE. No,, sir.
Mr. Robinson. Did you know Steve Schiavone ?
Mr. GiOE. No, sir.
Mr. Robinson. Never heard of him ?
Mr. GiOE. I didn't know him.
Mr. Robinson. Have you heard of him ?
Mr. GioE. Steve Schiavone ?
Mr. Robinson. No, S-c-h-i-a-v-o-n-e.
Mr. GiOE. No ; I wouldn't him.
Mr. Robinson. Or Mecessa? Anyone by the name of Mecessa?
Mr. GiOE. No, sir. •
Mr. Robinson. Was your source of liquor from the Capone business ?
Mr. GiOE. No, sir.
Mr. Robinson. During the days that you were running it in Wis-
consin into Iowa ?
JMr. GioE. No, there was no such thing as dealing with them. There
was any number of people that you could have gone to that nobody
even knew, that handled it, around Wisconsin, you know.
Mr. Robinson. You never handled any of that type of business in
<Jhicago ?
:Mr. GiOE. Very little. Very little.
Mr. Robinson. And the only amount that you handled was this
amount that you got from Ricca's place?
Mr. GiOE. That wasn't no liquor. They had this synthetic wine
at that time. I understand this Ralph did. That was about all.
Mr. Robinson. You never bought anv alcohol from them«
Mr. GiOE. No.
Mr. Robinson. Did you retain any one to endeavor to get a parole
tor you at any time ? => i
Mr. GiOE. No, sir.
Mr. Robinson. Do you know who made the arrangement ?
Mr. GiOE. I know nothing about it.
110 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Robinson. All you know is that you were paroled. Right ?
Mr. GiOE. Right. I applied in the proper manner and was paroled.
I had 54 months of good conduct in there. It was the first time that
I had ever been in trouble. And I had the recommendation of the
Attorney General and a letter from the judge. It was a recommenda-
tion that I be given parole. I never saw 10 cents out of it, and never
had anything to do with it.
Mr. Robinson. Did you state what the name of your accountant was ?
Mr. GiOE. Shaf er, at that time.
Mr. Robinson. That is right. Did Bernstein ever handle any of
your work?
Mr. GiOE. No, sir.
The Chairman. One question. I notice here that your partner
seems to draw $150 a week out of this business.
Mr. GiOE. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. But you do not draw anything out of it?
Mr. GiOE. No, sir. Well, as I stated, he is the working partner,
and he is working on the job. So he hasn't any means of livelihood,
and I am trying to build up a bank roll so that we have something to
operate with.
Mr. Chairman. So that you are leaving your money m ?
Mr. GiOE. It is accruing.
The Chairman. And your wife is paying the expenses of living ?
Mr. GioE. Yes.
The Chairman. I do not think that we particularly need this book.
Mr. GioE. I will be very happy if you will give it to me back. That
is the working ledger.
Mr. Robinson. Is this the book that you have to produce to the
parole officer periodically?
Mr. GioE. Yes, sir.
The Chairt>ian. Whatever this ledger is marked as an exhibit,, we
will let the record show that this is a black ledger book which is now
being returned to the witness.
Anything else, Mr. Robinson?
Mr. Robinson. No, Mr. Chairman. I guess not.
The Chairman. All right, Mr. Gioe. You will remain subject to
subpena without our having to serve another subpena on you. When
you are notified to appear, the subpena that has been served on you
is still valid without the service of another one.
Mr. GioE. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And these additional books and records Mr. Robin-
son will communicate with you about, and you will abide by his order.
Tliat is all, and you are f ree'^to go back to Chicago.
Mr. GiOE. Thank you, sir.
There was an article about me tliat I defied a committee. I never
defied any committee.
The Chairman. How did that get into the paper?
Mr. GiOE. I don't know. I went to the marshal's office and picked
up the subpena, and that is all that was said. So the newspaperman
asked me if I got my subpena from the Kef auver committee. I said,.
"Yes, I went up to the marshal's office and took it." The next thing I
knew there was a headline that I had defied the committee.
The Chairman. The committee will be adjourned.
(Whereupon, at 4 : 22 p. m., the committee adjourned, subject to the
call of the Chair.)
INVESTIGATION OF ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE
COMMERCE
THURSDAY, OCTOBER 5, 1950
United States Senate,
Special Committee To Investigate Organized
Crime in Interstate Commerce,
Chicago^ III.
EXECUTIVE SESSION
The committee met, pursuant to call, at 10 : 45 a. m., in room 26T
United States Court House (Old Post Office Building), Chicago, 111.,
Senator Estes Kefauver (chairman), presiding.
Present : Senators Kefauver and Owen Brewster.
Also present: Rudolph Halley, chief counsel; George S. Robinson,
associate counsel; George H. White, Patrick H. Kiley, William C.
Garrett, and W. D. Amis, investigators; and Julius Cahn, adminis-
trative assistant to Senator Wiley.
Elmer Oltman, Intelligence Unit, Bureau of Internal Revenue,
Kansas City Division ; and N. F. Ortwerth, Internal Revenue Agent,
St. Louis Division.
Daniel P. Sullivan, operating director, Crime Commission of
Greater Miami ; and Walter J. Devereux, chief investigator, Chicago
Crime Commission, and consultant to the committee.
August S. Brown, special agent. Treasury Intelligence, Chicago, 111.
The Chairman. The committee will come to order.
Gentlemen, we have a rule of our committee that we swear everybody
who is going to testify. You do solemnly swear the testimony you
will give before the committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
The Honorable Martin H. Kennellt, (mayor, city of Chicago).
I do.
John C. Prendergast (commissioner of police, city of Chicago).
I do.
Ivan A, Elliott (attorney general, State of Illinois). I do.
Robert C. Eardley (first assistant attorney general. State of Illi-
nois). I do.
Otto Kerner, Jr., (United States attorney, northern district of
Illinois). I do.
John S. Boyle (State's attorney, Cook County, 111.). I do.
Elmer Michael Walsh (sheriff. Cook County, 111.). I do.
Ill
112 ORGANIZED CRIME' IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
TESTIMONY OF HON. MARTIN H. KENNELLY, MAYOK, CITY OF
CHICAGO, ILL., ACCOMPANIED BY POLICE COMMISSIONER JOHN
C PRENDERGAST, CHICAGO, ILL. ; ATTORNEY GENERAL IVAN A.
ELLIOTT, ILLINOIS; FIRST ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL
ROBERT C. EARDLEY, ILLINOIS; OTTO KERNER, JR., UNITED
STATES ATTORNEY, NORTHERN DISTRICT OF ILLINOIS; JOHN S.
BOYLE, STATE'S ATTORNEY, COOK COUNTY, ILL.; ELMER
MICHAEL WALSH, SHERIFF, COOK COUNTY, ILL.; AND WALTER
J. DEVEREUX, CHICAGO CRIME COMMISSION
The Chairman. Mayor Kennelly, we appreciate your coming today
to meet with us. Do you have a general statement ^
Mayor Kennelly. I prepared one, Mr. Chairman. It you don t
mind, I will read it. .
The Chairman. Yes, sir; that will be very convenient
Alayor Kennelly. Mr. Chairman, Senator Brewster, and your statt,
I welcome you gentlemen of the Senate committee and your statt to
Chicao-o I assure you of the sincere and wholehearted cooperation
of the^ity administration in the investigative work you are doing.
All agencies of government must work together m law enforcement,
the Fecteral Government, die city government and the State s attor-
j^ey— and I can assure you that you will receive every support trom
State's Attorney Boyle.
It is fundamental in government, that there shall be no alliance be-
tween law breakers, law makers and law-enforcement agencies. Any
such alliance is a challenge to the very stability of government itselt.
I was elected mayor of Chicago 31/0 years ago and since that time,
day in and day out, night in and night out, we have been working to
make Chicago a better city in which to live; to create conhdence of
the people in government and to build up the reputation of Chicago,
at home and abroad. 4? i:„<v
Chicago is my town. So I am sure you will appreciate my feeling
regarding its good name. • i r „
We do have our share of crime in the city of Chicago, including
gambling. , , , 1 £ ± -p
I was shocked, as everyone was last week, by the murder of two ot
our citizens. The entire investigative force of the city and tire
county are working to solve these crimes. They must be solved and
the perpetrators brought to justice. If your committee, the I Bi, or
any other agency can help us we will welcome such assistance.
mat we'^have been trying to do is to enforce all laws— to create
aeneral respect for law and order in Chicago.
Every ordinance on the books is being more strictly enforced,
whether it involves gambling, driving while intoxicated, peddhng
narcotics, health inspection, regulation of taverns, building inspection,
selling liquor to minors— just to name a few examples of our law-
enforcement program. T 1 ^1 1 i. Uo
Early in my administration, in order to accomplish the best results
we called in experts to make a study of the police department, to see
where it was weak and where improvements could be made. As a re-
sult of these studies we brought about a complete realmement of the
top command. Civil service and the merit system were strengthened.
The detective bureau was reorganized. The records system was com-
ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE OOAI^VIERCE 113
pletely revamped to conform Avitli FBI standards. The traffic division
was completely overhauled, resulting in the saving of hundreds of
lives. A department of race relations was inaugurated. The crime
laboratory was strengthened. A new department of crime prevention
was established. We strengthened the juvenile educational program.
We organized schools for all members of the police department, not
only recruits and patrolmen, but sergeants, lieutenants and cai)tains.
Everyone, men and officers alike, were included in the instruction
courses in up-to-date police work.
I 'am proud of the progress we have made in improving the police
depjirtment. Under the merit system as administered by our civil
service connnission, I look for this improvement to continue."^
Official statistics show Chicago's crime position as compared with
other large cities. According to analysis of the latest FBI figures of
cities of more than 10(),()()0 population, based on census rei)orts at that
time, Chicago ranks twenty-seventh in murders; twentv-fourth in
aggravated assaults; fifty-eighth in burglaries; forty-third in grand
larceny; eighty-first in petty larceny; and sixty-eighth in auto thefts.
In considering violations of the law, I always try to remember that
there are different standards of conduct. There is the citizen, for
instance, who bribes a public offii-ial or a policeman. And then vou
have the individual who accepts the bribe.
There is the gambler who profits from illegal operations — and the
official who permits these illegal operations.
There is also the ordinary citizen who just bets. Without him you
wouldn't have any gambling business.
Then we have those who encourage this betting with a continuous
sales campaign.
So let's figure out in what category each of us as a citizen belongs.
Public support is essential in any program of law enforcement.
I have repeatedly stated, before"^ and after my election, that I am
opposed to organized gambling in the city of Chicago, and we have
done something about it.
The reduction in organized gambling today has been stated to be
as high as To percent.
Two years after my election the Chicago Crime Commission re-
ported, "syndicated crime is at the lowest ebb in Chicago than has
been true for many years."
Since that time, with the increased efficiency of the police depart-
ment this situation has been further improved.
There is no longer an open and flagrant disrespect for the law in
Chicago.
It is obvious that the prevention of murder and other crimes is
difficult. The records of the detective bureau show that during the
first 9 months of this year ending October 1, 88.1 percent of the
murders in Chicago have been solved. It is also obvious that more
policemen, better trained policemen — and better paid policemen — will
have the effect of tightening up law enforcement and serve to pre-
vent crime before it is committed.
We welcome the help of this committee.
We pledge you our complete cooperation in this investigation. And
in return we ask that your committee make available to us and the citi-
zens of Chicago all the facts that you may develop from your inves-
tigation, which affect our city.
114 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INrTERSTATE COMMERCE
I have run my administration on the principle that the people are
entitled to all of the facts. , n v-
If yonr investigation uncovers any tie-up between crmie and politics
in Chicago I want to know about it, and the people are entitled to
"the facts.
Too long have the same names and generalities been bandied about.
If the facts are there — let's get them.
With all of us working together we can strike a telling blow for
good government.
I thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Thank you very much, Mayor Kennelly.
Mr. Halley. Mr. Mayor, some time ago we had an informal dis-
cussion and you stated some facts which I think would be of great
interest to the committee on the decrease in crime in Chicago, steps
-which you had ordered to be taken and steps which Commissioner
Prendergast took in order to effect that decrease. Would you want
to elaborate on that and give the details?
Mayor Kennelly. Of course, the only instructions I can give as
mayor is to see that all laws are enforced. We don't make any dif-
ferentiation. We don't differentiate between one ordinance or one law
or another. I think we have talked too long about gambling and
letting everything else go. We have a drive on gambling and find
Ihat every other law in the city was being violated. What we have
done in Chicago is to enforce every law, whether it be gambling or
not. My orders to the commissioner of police are to see that there
is no gambling in Chicago. He works on that every day. He gets
complaints from citizens, from crime commissions, from his men m
the field, and it is his obligation to close up the gambling operations.
I think it is well known in Chicago that you can't go m off the street
now and place a bet anywhere in Chicago. I am not saying that there
is not gambling in Chicago. People some time like to bet. We
haven't changed their habits. But there is no open, organized gam-
bling that we can find in Chicago.
Mr. Halley. Mr. Mayor, as you say, a number of generalities have
been bandied about. One of them which has been made rather specifi-
cally is that certain members of the Chicago police force have grown
wealthy in office. As you know, the committee in its investigations in
other ])laces did find one or two law-enforcement officers in certain com-
munities who had become very wealthy in office. I wonder if you
have checked that and whether anything has been done with refer-
ence to investigating the particular men who are supposed to have
acquired the manifestations, at least, of wealth.
Mayor Kennelly. There wouldn't be any way for us to check
whether they are wealthy or not.
Mr. Halley. For instance, would your police department have the
authority to call in and question men in the law enforcement depart-
ment who have the outward manifestations of wealth ?
Mayor Kennelly. If that wealth was acquired before he came into
office,"l wouldn't think it would be my obligation to investigate it.
Mr. Halley. Suppose it were acquired while they were on the
police force? . ^
Mayor Kennelly. How would we go about questioning police offi-
cials as to their wealth ? Just ask him the question ?
ORGAN^IZED CRIME^ EN" INTERSTATE COMMERCE 115
Mr. Halley. Just bluntly put it to him : "How do you on a police-
man's salary now have, say, a ranch in the Southwest, an expensive
automobile, a fine house, and so forth. How much money have you
in the bank?"
Has anj^thing like that been done and do you have authority to do
anything like that ?
Mayor Kenxellt. I question that. I wouldn't know without ask-
ing the State's attorney whether we have that kind of authority.
Mr. Hallet. Do you know whether there is that authority, Mr.
Boyle?
Mr. Boyle. I don't know whether the man could refuse to answer
or not. If he did refuse to answer, what crime would he commit?
That is the answer. Would he be subject to dismissal from the Chi-
cago Police Department or not \ I don't know. I don't know enough
about civil service rules and regulations.
Mr, Halley. At this stage of the inquiry, at this point with nothing
■on the record but your statement, I prefer not to pursue that subject,
except to say generally that the committee has certain income tax in-
formation in its possession which indicates that certain members of
the jDolice force and certain law-enforcement officers have wealth. Of
course they may have acquired it through very intelligent investments.
We just don't know yet.
Mayor Kennelly. Will vou make that information available to
me? '
Mr. Halley. Certainly.
Mayor Kennelly. Will it be made public ?
Mr. Halley. That will be at the committee's discretion.
Mayor Kennelly. I think it should be. I think if there is any-
body on the police department or in government who can't account
for their income, who can't show that it has been properly acquired,
he should not be connected with the police department or with
government.
]\Ir. Halley. Would you state to the committee, Mr. Mayor, whether
in all the time j^ou have been in office anybody not holding official
position has attempted to influence you in the placement of police
officers in any particular district, or in their removal? That again
has been bandied about and that is why I ask the question.
Mayor Kennelly. One of my first instructions to the commis-
sioner of police when I became mayor was that I was the only one to
give liim instructions, that he was not to take instructions from any-
body outside of my office, that no politician should give him instruc-
tions, and that no one could control the placing of captains or any
other officials in the police department. I believe he has followed out
those instructions.
Mr. Halley. Is it your feeling that at this time, with of course the
minimum of exceptions that are beyond control, the police force of
Chicago is honest and the individual members are doing an honest
job of law enforcement?
Mayor Kennelly. I believe so. I think so. I think we have a
good police department. I never go back prior to my administration
because everybody has his own problems. I certainly would not be
critical of what happened 20 or 25 years ago in Chicago. Policemen
are of course human beings. I pointed out a few days ago to a friend
vof mine that I was talking to about police work that everyone who is
116 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
arrested in Chicago or any other city immdiately tries to get ont of
it, whether he be a supposedly good citizen, whether he be a lawyer,
or a ])olitician. He immediately tries to figure out how^ he can beat
it, as they say. He is not adverse to using any method he can use to
attain his objective of not going to jail. I have in mind a man whose
relatives were arrested for driving while intoxicated. This man said
to me, '*! will do anything to keep them from going to jail." That is
what the pol iceman is up against. That is what law enforcement agen-
cies are up against. The citizens themselves bribe or attempt to bribe
them. All that w^e have been able to do in Chicago, as I see it, is first
to let them know that as far as this administration is concerned we are
trying to run an honest administration. We don't stand for any fix-
ing. We don't stand for any politics in the police department. I have
had people come to me in politics, surely. I am in politics. I am a
politician. Some say I am a poor one, but I am a politician. One
man said, "I would like to have a certain captain sent to my district."
I said, "Can you vouch for him? Is he a good police officer^ Does
he know how to prevent crime in his district ? Does he Ivnow how to
prosecute crime when he gets it?"
He said, "I want a man put in the district."
Mr. Halley. Will you give the commitee the names?
Mayor Kenxelly. No; because he didn't accomplish his purpose.
Mr. Halley. I think the committee would have a great interest in
knowing who would want to accomplish that.
Mayor Kennelly. Xo ; I wouldn't give you that.
Mr. Halley. Don't you think it would help us
Mayor Kennelly. No, not in this particular instance.
Mr. Halley. In arriving at our conclusions ?
Mayor Kennelly. This fellow really happens to be a pretty good
fellow. I wouldn't put him in the category of one wdio was trying to
fix anything. That is the feeling. That has been the feeling, that
the i^olice department should be controlled by men in politics.
Mr. Halley. Isn't that a big part of our problem, that we don't
want to hurt the innocent, we certainly don't want to ruin reputations
or do anything that would be irresponsible ? At the same time in an
effort to be fair and in effect to be good fellows, too, sometimes some
of us are used, and perhaps by talking to this man we might find out
how this came about. Maybe somebody was trying to use him.
Mayor Kennelly. No; this fellow didn't. I don't think he knew
what he was asking. I don't remember his name, as a matter of fact.
No ; I don't remember the name of the captain. Tliis was when I came
into office 3i/^ years ago. .
Mr. Halley. Mr. Mayor, one of the things we discussed and on
which I must say I thought your position was quite reasonable at the
time we had our informal discussion was the fact that obviously a city
like Chicago, which welcomes large numbers of visitors, must offer
some types of entertainment and that obviously there must be a limit
to the amount of strict clamping down on all minor violations of the
law involved in the entertainment field. Am I right there?
Mayor Kennelly. I never knew of that policy myself. I don't
believe any law should be violated just because conventions come
to town. The laws on the books ought to be enforced, regardless of
whether it is for out-of-town people or those at home.
ORGANIZED CRniE^ IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 117
Mr. Halley. That would be your view ?
Mayor Kexnelly. That would be my view.
Mr. Halley. We have had little opportunity, having just opened
these hearings here today, to check what may be just general state-
ments, but a number of statements have been made to the committee
that certain areas of the city do operate on a more or less open basis
not involving any bookmaking or serious offenses, but that liquor is
sold illegally, that various types of operations to take money away
from visitors are used, in short to clip them. I was wondering if that
had come to your attention and if it is so or not. Do you know?
Mayor Kexxelly. Whether there are clip joints ?
Mr. Halley. Whether there are clip joints, whether tliere are people
cheating visitors, whether there is liquor being sold in violation of
the law.
Mayor Kenxelly. I never heard of liquor being sold in violation
of the law. There have been some statements made to me and to the
press that some of these visitors are clipped, as you call it. We
don't stand for that. As soon as it comes to our attention, instructions
are given to the commissioner of police to clear up the situation, to
revoke licenses, if necessary.
Mr. Halley. At the present time are there any parts of the city in
which dance halls operate with minor infractions of the law in order
to please the visitors ?
5layor Kexxelly. I wouldn't know about that. I never heard of a
dance hall complaint since I have been mayor.
Mr. Halley. Or saloons or cabarets ?
Mayor Kexxelly. We have 10,000-some-hundred taverns in Chi-
cago. We revoke their licenses if we have a complaint about them in
our office.
Mr. Halley. By and large, then, would you say that the general
su])ervision of the taverns and the entertainment facilities is strict?
Mayor Kexxelly. I hope it is.
Mr. Halley. And your instructions to the police force are to keep
them strict, is that right ?
]Slayor Kex^^x^elly. They all know when it gets into my office that is
the end of the license.
Mr. Halley. You haven't had any complaints?
INIayor Kexxelly. No. You mean complaints from citizens.
]Mr. Halley. Yes.
Mayor Kexx-elly. Occasionally I get letters. I probably get a
couple of letters a week, anonymous, saying a place is running gam-
bling on the side. I turn it over to the police department even though
it is anonymous and investigate it. We investigate every complaint
and try to do something about it.
We investigate every complaint and try to do something about it.
Mr. Halley. And you are satisfied that there is no widespread area
of violation, even minor violation, of law?
Mayor Kexxelly. I wouldn't go that far. I think you have to
take into consideration tlie human elements involved.
Mr. Halley. That is what I had in mind, particularly in the enter-
tainment field.
Maj'or Kexxelly. I am sure there is always room for improvement.
We are not holding ourselves out as a holier-than-thou city or people.
118 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
We are trying to better the conditions here. That is about all anyone-
in government can hope to do,
Mr. Halley. To the extent that there is room for improvement,
would you say that that room for improvement is within the area of
this committee, that is, having to do with organized crime and having
to do with interstate relation&liips ? Or is it just on a purely local and
petty level ?
Mayor Kennelly. Of course I can't tell. These names that you
read in the paper, I have been reading them for a good many years,
the same names, the same charges. As I said in my statement to the
committee, we ought to try to get the facts and see whether they have
these connections. We ought to find out about this captain who has
wealth and can't account for it, where he got it. I am for that.
Mr. Halley. In fairness he hasn't yet been asked to account for it,.
and there is more than one, I might also say.
Mayor Kennelly. Whoever they are, they haven't any place in my
administration. We don't want them around if they are taking money
from outside sources, no matter who they are.
Mr. Halley. But those rumors had not come to your attention?
Mayor Kennelly. I read things in the paper. I follow it very
carefully. I think you will find and your investigators will find there
is less politics in the police department than in its history — and tliis
is off the record because we are not bragging about it. I think there is-
less politics in the police department than at any time in its history.
There is no one who can say that they can come to the mayor's office
and get anything fixed in the police department, no one. That is the
source of control of the police department.
Mr. Halley. Would that be true in the police enforcement at the
local level, for instance the captain in the precinct?
Mayor Kennelly. These captains, some of them have been there for
years. In order to remove them, you have to prefer charges, you have
to have the facts. You can't just go and say we don't like you and
think you are no good and we have to eliminate you from the police'
department.
Mr. Halley. Has there been any policy in Chicago of making
changes in personnel by shifting people to dift'erent jobs without any
particular criticism of them but simply to keep them on their toes ?
Mayor Kennelly. That is a policy that has been debated among
the police officials. When I first came in we had a police commissioner
and no assistants. The captains in the districts ran their districts.
Of course, I am new to this business of police work and don't know
too much about it and I don't pose as an expert now. I felt sure that
it was not the right way that it should be run. Ten thousand five hun.-
dred taverns in themselves are a problem. So we brought an expert
adviser into the police department. We put him on the staff and it
took him 6 or 8 months or a year to see what we could do to strengthens
the police department.
Mr. Halley. Who did you bring in ?
IVIayor Kennelly. Col. Franklin Kremel.
Mr. Halley. For the record, would you state what his prior expe-
riences had been?
Mayor Kennelly. He is connected with Northwestern University
in charge of the traffic school up there. What his background is I
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 119'
have in the office. He is well regarded and well known throughont the
country. Some say he is an expert on traffic, but he was very helpful
to us in his study because of his knowledge of the local situation. I
talked to a lot of people about the police department. Some thought
that I ought to bring in an outsider from Xew York. The best ad-
vice I could receive was that that would be a mistake, that I would
have to have somebody on the grounds. So I started out to find what
I thought were honest men to put in the top command. That, to me,
was fundamental. First, were they honest? That was the first thing
I did. It took me a long time to find them. This is not easy work as
you probably have found. I found Commissioner Prenclergast here,
and everybody agreed that he was honest. I then tried to find out
who he could get for his assistants. There were a lot of suggestions
made to me which came in from good citizens and even from crime
violators.
The papers made suggestions. I didn't take those suggestions, be-
cause there was no one running the police department but the mayor.
Some may have been all right, but they didn't know the score. I
talked to the FBI, the top people. I said I want to get some staff
here so that when they come into my office I know they are honest.
That is where we start, with an honest top command. We ended up
with Deputy O'Connor. When we made him chief first deputy' — is
that his title ?
Commissioner Prexdergast. Deputy in charge of field service.
]Mayor Kexxellt. The papers carried the story that he was one
man that his alderman or board member didn't know. That was a
great recommendation as far as I was concerned. We did that all the
Avay down the line, with the chief of detectives, and so on, people that
we had confidence in. So we built our staff. There was one commis-
sioner for 25 or 30 years trying to run the police department.
Mr. Halley. Can you fire or remove anybody ?
Mayor Kennelly. Oh, yes.
Mr. Halley. Did you shift anybody from major assignments?
Mayor Kennelly. Oh, yes.
Mr. Halley. Can you state in general what shifts were made, just
the major ones?
Mayor Kennelly. The chief of detectives. I put in his assistant^
Andrew Aiken. That wasn't any reflection on the man who was there,
but we weren't solving, in my opinion, the number of murders and
crimes that I thought we should. I thought I ought to do something
about it. The man who was captain in the district. Storms, was
apparently doing a good job. We transferred this fellow. Then we
started to discuss the question of transferring captains when some-
thing happens in a district. I had been reading about transfers all
my life in the police department. It always sounded like a lot of
baloney to me, just done for effect. I said to Prendergast, keep them
there and make them do it right there. Don't transfer them out
because something happens. Keep them there and then we can hold
them responsible for that district. Transfer him out, and he would
say, "I am new in this district and the other fellow is new in tliat dis-
trict." It would have been easier to make the headlines with a lot
of transfers, but we have kept it to a minimum. I mean we don't
do it just because there is a gambling joint running out there and w&
120 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
find it. We don't transfer them ont for that. I don't feel that is
the way to do it. Yon don't do it in bnsiness and yon shouldn't do
it in the police department.
Mr. Halley. E'rom your experience how should the committee
approach that problem in its thinking, where we find a gambling joint
running wide open in an area and a police captain who has been
in the area for 10 years, mustn't the committee assume that he knew
about it and condoned it?
Mayor Kennelly. I have mistaken that position. We had a case
here a couple of weeks ago. I had forgotten the incident. I said
to the commissioner of police, you can't tell me, while it was up on
the second floor, that he didn't know about it, the captain or some-
one knew about it in the district or it couldn't be running.
Mr. Haeley. In a case like that do you bring the captain up on
departmental charges ?
Mayor Kennelly. The commissioner talks to him. I don't talk
to the captains myself.
Mr. Halley. Have any of them been brought up on charges and
fired?
Mayor Kennelly. They have been brought up to the department.
Commissioner Prendergast has tlie authority to suspend them for 29
days and then to resuspend them. You have suspended a good many
captains, have you not, Commissioner?
Mr. Prendergast. Some time ago ; yes.
Mr. Halley. Could you give us a list of the captains who were
suspended? If you don't have it right here. Commissioner, will you
provide it for the record ?
Mr. Prendergast. Any information that you want. We want to
help you. |
(The information furnished by Commissioner Prendergast is iden-
tified as exhibit No. 20 and is on file with the committee.)
Mr. Halley. Was anybody actually fired?
Mayor Kennelly. Only Drury and Connelly, I believe.
Mr. Halley. They were the only two ?
Mayor Kennelly. Yes. Is that right? Do you remember that?
Mr. Boyle. There Avere other police captains fired, but they werp
restored by court orders.
Mayor Kennelly. I am not familiar with the details.
Mr. Boyle. They were fired by the Civil Service Commission of
Chicago, but they appealed their cases to the courts. I understand
several of them w^ent to the appellate court and they were reinstated
by the court. I think there were seven policemen fired at one time;
isn't that correct; and the civil service commission put them off the
Chicago Police Department and they got a court order restoring
them to their rights and even with back pay, as I understand it. I
think that was before Mayor Kennelly took office. I am sure it
was.
Mr. Prendergast. It was.
Mr. Halley. Who would be best able to give the committee the facts
on that ?
Mr. Prendergast. I can get it for you.
Mr. Halley. Thank you.
Mr. Prendergast. That is some years ago.
ORGANIZED CRIME^ IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 121
Mr. Halley. Just one other tiling, Mr. Mayor. Is there any prac-
tice in Chicago or any authority for the practice of bringing in the
well-known hoodlums for questioning from time to time to find out
what they are doing ^
Mayor Kennelly. I wouldn't be able to answer that.
Mr. Prendergast. I thiidv the chief of detectives could answer that.
Mr. Halley. Is he here t
Mr. Prexdergast. That is his responsibility. No, he is not here,
but I can get him here any time you want.
Mr. Halley. Do you know, Mr. Boyle ?
Mr. Boyle. You will excuse me for smiling, but of course we had
Ricca. Campagna, and Gioe in, and they had to answer questions
because they were on Federal parole, and if they didn't cooperate
with the authorities that would be a violation of their parole. The
other night 1 was severely criticized for violating the civil rights
of people in tliis community at the Chicago Bar Association and
also that I was persecuting people rather than prosecuting them.
So you have one group of people who are interested in civil rights,
and then you have another grouj) of people who are lawbreakers who
probably have no civil rights, in my opinion. Do you mean that
certain people wdio are known hoodlums should be picked up around
the streets of Chicago ?
Mr. Halley. And brought in and asked ''AVhat are vou doing these
days?"
Mr. Boyle. That is a matter for the police department.
Mr. Halley. Has the police department done it, do you know,
Commissioner?
Mr. Prendergast. Not to a great extent.
Mr. Halley. Thank you. I have no other questions, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Senator Brewster, we ho2:)e that as long as possible
you will stay with us today and tomorrow and the next day. Be-
cause of the exigencies of the campaign and what not, we ai'e a little
short of committee members, and we would welcome you to stay and
participate in proceedings.
Would you like to ask Mayor Ivennelly some questions?
Senator Brewster. Mr. Chairman, I very much appreciate your
courteous suggestion that I sit in this morning. As you know, I took
a great deal of interest in some of the procedures to try and focus
national attention on these problems. I ha])pened to be in town to-
day. I shall not be able to sit in to any substantial extent, but I am very
happy to see the start of what I certainly hope will prove a very con-
structive investigation. I am sorry that my colleagues who are mem-
bers of the committee on both sides of the aisle aside from yourself are
not able to be here, two on the minority side, because they are involved
in campaigns at this time which seem to demand their attention, and
the members on your side, I presume have other responsibilities as
well. I don't believe that I should undei' the circumstances undei'take
({uestions because I have had some ex])erience in this field niyself and
I know^ the extent to which most careful preparation is necessary. I
am, however, interested in the general tone and tenor and I am haj^py
to spend as much time as I can while I am in town. I certaiidy
appreciate your courtesy and consideration.
68958— 51— pt. 5 9
122 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
The Chairman. Thank you, Senator Brewster. It should be re-
called that Senator Brewster made a speech on the floor of the Senate
about inrtltration of molester or fyan<jster elements into le<iitimate busi-
nesses, which is one of the very im])ortant things that we want to look
into, which had a oood deal to do, I think, with o;ettinf!; the Senate to
consider favorably the creation of this connnittee. AVe would be very
<i;lad if you would ask any questions.
Senator Brewster. Thank yon. I am olad you s})oke of that. I did
make as eloquent an appeal as I could to the Senate to take cognizance
of this situation in some appropriate way. I didn't undertake to say
just how it should be done, and I did, as you doubtless know, turn over
to the committee quite a little material which had been supplied me
l)earino- on various ])hases of this matter throughout the country, which
1 made available. I hope that material may to some extent have been
heli:)ful. If as time goes on there is any more material I get, I cer-
taiidy will make it available to the committee.
Mayor Kennelly. Will you keep this otf the record ?
The Chairman. Off the record.
( Discussion off the record. )
Mayor Kennelly. We close taverns on the evidence of the police
department. I revoke the license. We do it regardless of who is
involved, who knows who, or anything else.
The Chairman. Mayor Kennelly, I appreciate very much your
splendid statement and your words of welcome to us. I want to ask
you one or two questions.
I was impressed by the fact that the civil service had authorized the
dismissal of some policemen or captains who you felt were doing wrong
and the court somehow or other had reinstated them. How does that
come about ? Is that because of some defect in the law ?
Mayor Kennelly. The State's attorney made that statement.
The Chairman. We will ask him.
Mr. Boyle. They have a right to appeal on the theory that a police
officer or a man holding an office of sergeant, lieutenant, or captain in
the Chicago Police Department has a certain vested right if he has
15 or 18 years in the police department, and at the end of 20 years he
is entitled to pension. In that case they appealed the ruling of our
ciA'il service commission to the court here. If the court rules with the
civil service commission, they appeal to the appellate court, and from
the appellate court to the supreme court, if necessary. In many in-
stances where police officers have been fired from the Chicago Police
Department by the civil service commission, court orders have been
entered reinstating them.
The Chairman. That is rather demoralizing, isn't it?
Mr. Boyle. Yes ; it is.
The Chairman. What is the fault? Where is the difficulty?
Mr. Boyle. Going back to the Drury-Connelly case, when they were
let go by the Chicago Civil Service Commission they filed a petition
before I believe it Avas Judge Sbarbaro, and he reinstated them. The
city appealed from his order to the appellate court and the appellate
court said they had no right to reinstate them. Then it went to the
supreme court and the supreme court reversed the appellate court.
The courts have a right to review the actions of the civil service com-
mission. It is not final.
The Chairman. They do it on the evidence?
ORGANIZED CRIAIE IX INTERSTATE OOMMERCE 123
Mr. Boyle. They have a whole new case. We follow in our courts
the strict rules of evidence, which the}' do not follow in the civil service
commission.
The Chairman. Mayor Kennelly. you have Commissioner Pender-
gast, the head of the police system. What is the set-up of the city
government of the city of Chicago ? How many commissioners do you
have ?
iNIayor Kexxelly. In the police department ?
The Chairman. No; I mean generally.
Mayor Kennelly. We have the commissioner of public Avorks,
building commissioner, streets and alleys commissioner, highway com-
missioner, health commissioner, and so on.
The Chairman. Are they all appointed by the mayor?
Mayor Kennelly. All appointed by the mayor.
The Chairman. Do you have an advisory body, a council, or a
connnission ?
Mayor Kennelly. No.
The Chairman. A city council?
IMayor Kennelly. The city council confirms the appointments.
The Chairman. But you make the recommendation ; you make the.
appointment ?
Mayor Kennelly. That is right.
The Chairman. They have only the power of confirmation ?
JSIayor Kennelly. That is right.
The Chairman. Do they have the power of discharge or is that solely
in you?
]Mayor Kennelly. That is solely in my hands. That is my respon-
sibility. The commissioner is the one appointive officer in the depart-
ment. The others are civil service. He has the civil-service rank of
captain. The others are all civil service and I couldn't remove them
without charges being preferred.
Mr. Prexdergast. With the exception of the deputies.
INIayor Kennelly. I can remove them from deputy positions but
not from the force.
Mr. Prendergast. They are regular captains.
The Chairman. This civil service system that you have in thi^ police-
department, do you think it is a good civil service system ? How are
the members of the civil service board selected or appointed ?
Mayor Kennelly. Appointed by the mayor.
The Chairman. And subject to the approval of the council ?
Mayor Kennelly. Subject to the approval of the council.
The Chairman. Is the council nonpartisan or bipartisan or Demo-
cratic or Eepublican or how do they run ?
Mayor Kennelly. At election time it is nonpartisan when they are
running for office, it is political when they are not, and it is biparti-
san in many instances.
The Chairman. How manj^ members of the city council are there ?
Mayor Kennelly. Fifty. Seventeen are rated as Republicans, and.
thirty-three Democrats.
The Chairman. How often do they meet, usually?
]Mayor Kenneixy. Every 2 weeks. 3 weeks.
The Chairinian. Their power is the power of veto insofar as the
police department is concerned largely, is it not ?
Mavor Kennelly. Thev have the right of investigation.
124 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
The Chairman. In the talk and wliat not around — and we are all
just talkino; things over here — I have heard people say and I have read
that some time back in any event a lot of people had the idea that
money was paid by somebody for the purpose of getting a certain
position in the police department and while you now liave a good civil
service connnission, it was very difficult to get a lot of people really to
appreciate the fact that things were truly on their merits in the police
department, that they still thought that some favoi-
Mayor Kennelly. I think they are gradually getting to know that
it is on the square.
The Chairman. You are satisfied that there isn't any of that going
on now ?
Mayor Kennelly. Without question of doubt we have probably the
best civil service commission that Chicago ever had.
The Chairman. Are they appointed for terms, the members ?
Mayor Kennelly. They are appointed for a term. I just reap-
pointed one the other day.
The Chairman. How many members are on the civil service com-
mission ?
Mayor Kennelly. Three. We have a man by the name of Steve
Hurley who is the chairuian of it. I believe you know him, General
Elliott.
Mr. Elliott. No.
Mr. Boyle. Former president of the Chicago Bar Association.
Mayor Kennelly. Quite a fellow. When we took office there were
literally thousands of temporary employees. They are now 85 per-
cent civil service. Examinations have been held and temporary ap-
l^ointments have been taken off the roll.
The Chairman. I have also seen it stated that on the theoretical
ratio of the number of police that you should have for population, the
Chicago police force was considerably understaffed, that your ap-
propriation wasn't sufficient.
Mayor Kennelly. That is right.
The Chairman. I think theoretically it is recommended that you
have one police officer for every 600 population, is that correct? Mr.
Devereux, is that what it is ?
Mr. Devereux. I am sorry. Senator, I don't recall.
Tlie Chairman. It is somewhat less in Chicago.
Mayor Kennelly. I think so. They are not only understaffed
hut underpaid. I think w^e rank about ninth or tenth of the big cities
in salaries paid to policemen. We pay for patrolman I think $3,480
a year and New York pays $4,100.
Is that right, Mr. Devereux, about that figure?
Mr. Boyle. You are right. It is about 1 for every 600 population.
The Chairman. Do you know how Chicago runs? You have less
than the suggested ratio ?
Mr. Boyle. Yes.
Mayor Kennelly. I don't have the figure. We will get that for
vou. I have been trying for 3 years to do something about the salaries
'of policemen. We have to go to Springfield, the capital of the State,
for financial relief and because of politics or some other reason we
haven't been able to get any relief in our program.
The Chairman. You mean your budget has to be passed on by the
legislature?
OEGANIZED CRIME. IN I^^TERSTATE COMMERCE 125
Mayor Kennelly. No. The taxing power in the city has to be — we
are operated on an old rate of 5 years ago, and of course the costs
have gone up. I pointed this out to the members of the legislature.
I went down to the special session they had here this year, I spent
about 3 Aveeks down there trying to get some relief. I pointed out
to the members of the legislature that New York spends on the police
department of New York City about $98,000,000. We spend about
$28,000,000. We have big racial problems here, where we have
threatened conflicts between the races. In one instance we had 500
policemen who had to be taken from the stations. That is the kind
of situation tliat taxes our police force overnight, such as a threatened
riot on the South Side. The police commissioner had to draw in
police, leaving the districts unmanned. I suppose the crooks proba-
bly know about it. If they hear about a race riot, they think this is a
good time to get to work in the other districts.
We are making progress in those things. I am not satisfied with
a good many of the police captains. I am not running the kind of
administration that will permit anyone, be he a police captain or poli-
tician or lawyer or anyone else, to make money out of the city gov-
ernment that isn't proper compensation. I am opposed to it, and
unalterably opposed to it. Wlien I was selected by the Democratic
organization, by some reference to the Democratic organization, being
here some 20 years, I told the Democratic organization the basis on
which I would accept their support, first that I would run the job,
that while I was a Democrat I didn't believe in the policy that be-
cause I was a Democrat, the Democratic organization would run the
government, and we followed that out.
The Chairman. In that connection, what if any effort has there
been on behalf of the Democratic organization or any other organ-
ization to exert any influence ?
Ma^^or Kexxellt. Not recently.
The Chaieman. I understood that one difficulty in Chicago, at least
in the past, has been that there were ward committeemen in the various
wards that had great influence, political influence, and maybe the
policeman who was in that ward looked more to the ward committee-
man and was willing to abide by the judgment of the ward committee-
man as to what should go on in that precinct than maybe he was with
the police department as such, and that that was the cause of some
sections of the city having lax law enforcement.
Mayor Kenmelly. That may have been the way it was run. I think
Collier's article which was out recently paid us a compliment. I don't
know whether they meant to do it or not. They said that that system
was no longer in existence here, that the police captain was the boss
of the district. Well, at least we have cut one factor out of the busi-
ness of crime. People in politics, in my opinion, the ward committee-
men, have no place in the police department. We can't do all these
things overnight. This is an old, established custom in American
politics, not only in Chicago but in Memphis and in Vermont.
Senator Brewster. Maine. It is synonymous.
]\layor Kexnelly. It is Republican, anyway. I didn't take this
position as mayor for any purpose other than to do a good job for
this community.
The Chairman. Certainly I have never seen any personal insinua-
tions against you, Mayor. The most I have ever seen I think was in
126 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE
the Collier's article where it says that so much was going on you had a
hard time keeping up with everything that was going on. I think they
made that observation.
Mayor Kennelly. Of course, we don't go talking about these names
that you mention here. I don't know these names; Accardo and all
these names don't mean anything to me. I say stop crime, stop gam-
bling in Chicago, and that w^ill affect those people. That is the way
I do it. They have been talking about them too long. We cut out
their source of income. When I became mayor you could walk down
any street here and find a big gambling joint.
Mr. Boyle. Air conditioned.
Mayor Kennelly. Air conditioned, serving you sandwiches while
jou gambled.
The Chairman. Three and a half years ago.
Mayor Kennelly. Yes ; and they don't exist now. I challenge any-
one to prove that they exist or that you can walk into any one. Even
the crime commission, my good friend over there, Mr. Devereux, in
his reports or gambling — his complaints rather — show that 85 or 90
percent are what they call sneak bets at this time.
The Chairman. Mayor Kennelly, you mentioned the Chicago Crime
Commission, and I was going to ask about that. I know there have
been some differences of judgment between you and ]Mr. Peterson, the
operating director, or maybe the officials of the Chicago Crime Com-
mission. In the time that I have been interested in this, expressing
my personal opinion, I have had the feeling that the Chicago Crime
Commission was a very fine organization, and certainly that Mr. Virgil
Peterson, while anyone might disagree with him, knows his business.
He has been in the business a long time and I think he is a very splendid
man.
Mayor Kennelly. I subscribe to that.
The Chairman. He and the members of his staff have been a great
deal of assistance to us. I felt that crime commissions generally in
cities did an awfully good job. I wonder what is the situation with
the Chicago Crime Commission.
Mayor Kennelly. I can subscribe to all you say about Mr. Peterson.
I subscribe to that 100 percent. I like him; I like the crime commis-
sion. As a matter of fact. I had been a member of it for a long time
before I became mayor. I was a member — still am, I believe — of the
crime commission. They have made a great contribution to Chicago.
I disagree sometimes with their ways of doing things. After all, the
mayor has to make these decisions and not outsiders, whether it be the
crime commission or the Democratic county counsel committee, the
association of commerce, or anybody else. In the final analysis, it is
for the mayor to make the decision. If we have had any disagree-
ments, it is on that })oint alone, not on objectives.
The Chairman. But their effort in keeping in touch with the situa-
tion
IVIayor Kennelly. Has been very helpful. Some months ago I ar-
ranged for a meeting between Mr, Devereux and Mr. Peterson and the
police department. Under this new command that we set up here a
year ago, one of the matters on the agenda was regular meetings of
the top command to discuss crime in Chicago — to bring in people
and talk about it. I said to Mr. Wyman and his associates on the crime
commission, "Why don't you sit in and work with them and see what
ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COAIMERCE 127
you can do? They have more to do than what you are interested in,
but I think it would be helpful to them to set up that kind of meet-
ing— to bring them into the family." AVe like them. They are fine
people. They are top fellows there. Austin Wyman and Guy Reed
are some of the finest citizens we have around Chicago.
The Chairman. I am glad to hear you say their work should be
encouraged. I had the feeling down in Miami, for instance — Mr. Dan
Sullivan is visiting with us here today — that they have done a wonder-
ful job there. Down there they didn't have the cooperation of the
sheritf and the city police and what not. I think in the future there
will be cooperation there.
Mr. Mayor, I also wanted to ask. Do you think it is important that
we get at the matter of infiltration of some of these fellows like the
Fischettis et al. into legitimate businesses? Is that a problem here?
^Vlayor Ken nelly. They say it is. I wouldn't have any first-hand
knowledge. If anybody who is rated by crime experts as a gangster,
certainly all his activities ought to be investigated.
The Chairman. Do you have any suggestions about how we can
get into these matters ? For instance, it is reported that the Fischettis
own the Chez Paree. What about that?
Mayor Kennelly. I happen to know something about the Chez
Paree. I have been in it a number of times myself as a visitor. Prior
to my taking on this job as mayor I believe they had quite a gambling
room up there which some rated as one of the best in the country, if
you can call gambling rooms the best, the best for whom I woulcbi't
know. It had quite a high rating. We closed it up.
]\Ir. Boyle. Since then they sold it.
Mayor Kennelly. One night I was invited to — this is off the record.
It is not important to the hearing.
(Off the record.)
The Chairman. Mr. Mayor, how are the licenses issued for places
like the Chez Paree?
Mayor Kennelly. It is an amusement license issued by the police
department.
The Chairman. Does the police department have a board that passes
on them or do they have to meet any standards ?
Mayor Kennelly. They have to meet certain requirements. I have
a man in my office who puts the final O. K, ; one of my assistants.
The Chairman, So that comes under your jurisdiction.
Mayor Kennelly. Yes, sir.
The Chairman, How about wholesale and retail liquor licenses ?
Mayor Kennelly. The same way.
The Chairman. Do the wholesale liquor licenses come under your
jurisdiction?
Mr. Prendergast. Yes ; all licenses for liquor.
The Chairman. The State has no power in passing on licenses for
wholesale and retail liquor establishments?
]Mr. Prendergast. No.
Mayor Kennelly. I am not familiar with that.
Mr.' Boyle. I really don't know. How about Eardley. He should
know,
Mr. Kerner. There are three different licenses. There is a Federal
license to wholesalers.
The Chairman. That is just a taxpaying matter.
128 ORGANIZED CRIME; IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Kerner. Yes. There is a State license issued by the State
liquor-control board or some such name.
The Chairman. Where is the character of the applicant passed on?
Mr. Prendergast. Police department.
The Chairman. By the city police department?
Mr. Prendergast. By the captain of the district. He either ap-
proves or disapproves.
The Chairman. Is there a board to whom the captain makes recom-
mendations ?
Mayor Kennelly. It is up to the commissioners.
Mr. Prendergast. Yes.
The Chairman. Does the State control board pass one way or an-
other on the worth-whileness ?
Mr. Prendergast. I know nothing about the State. There is a
Government license issued.
The Chairman. The Government refers just to the payment of the
tax, I believe.
Mr. Prendergast. Yes.
Mayor Kennelly. We will get you the information for the record.
(The information furnished by Mayor Kennelly is identified as
exhibit No. 21, and is on file with the committee.)
The Chairman. You had some questions, Mr. Robinson.
]Mr. Robinson. Along that line, Mr. Mayor, is there a thorough
investigation made of the applicant for such a license ?
Mayor Kennelly. There is supposed to be. I hope there is. We
had a check made sometime ago of a good many women who had
licenses, that is, the feeling was that there were a good many women
and that somewhere back of it someone else owned the license, that
they w^ere just being used as a front. We had that checked. I or-
dered the counsel to check the licenses, some 1,500 or 2,000. I think
we have the file on that, which might be helpful to you. That always
disturbed me, to find w^omen owning taverns, but that is the way it was.
We started to find out whether they had any connections, whether they
were representing anyone. The file of the corporation counsel on that
could be made available to you.
The Chairman. We would be very happy if we could have the op-
portunity to see that.
Mayor Kennelly. Surely. Who was it who handled that in the
corporation counsel's office?
Mr. Prendergast. Mr. Harrington.
Mr. Robinson. I understand the initial recommendation is made
by the precinct captain.
Mayor Kennelly. Not by the precinct captain. I never heard of
that.
The Chairman. I thought you said the police captain.
]Mr. Prendergast. Yes ; the police captain.
Mayor Kennelly. He checks whether they have any criminal
records and so forth. It goes through a regular system.
Mr. Prendergast. The application is made in the city collector's
office, then it is forwarded to the police department, the health de-
partment, building department, and I believe the electrical depart-
ment. It is passed on by the district police captain, who has a man
assigned to investigate applicants for licenses. It is returned to the
ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 129
captain and then returned to our ofRce and then returned to the city
collector.
The Chairman. If the applicant has a criminal record of any kind,
can he ^et a permit ?
Mr. Prendergast. No, sir.
Mayor Ken nelly. It is all recorded on the application.
Mr. Robinson. Has it been the experience that the ward committee-
man gets into that picture at all ?
Mayor Kennelly. I wouldn't say "Yes" or "No" to that.
Mr. Robinson. ]\Iayor Kennelly, would you care to make any com-
ment on the presently existing — and I understand it is a presently
existing — narcotics problem in the city of Chicago?
Mayor Kennelly. I would like to talk about that because I think
we are away out in front in the enforcement of those laws. About a
year and a half ago I read somewhere in one of the papers or in one
of the columns that there was a good deal of narcotics on the South
Side; that is, out in the Negro district. I immediately called the
commissioner of police and told him I wanted a drive put on, and we
have done that. I get I think a monthly report of the number of
arrests on narcotics violations. I said. '"I want to find out what you
are doing about it. Keep me currently informed." We get a monthly
report. We have arrested thousands of people in connection with this
drive. We have a record of how the cases were disposed of in court,
whether they were let out, whether they were lined. Your narcotics
man is here. I saw liim. He is familiar with it. I think as far as
any other city I think we are far out in front on it. We recognize the
importance of it. We have the records of whether rhey are minors,
whether they are juveniles, or .who they are. We will give you that
record. We will make the record up and send it over to you.
Mr. Prendergast. Do j^ou want that?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Prendergast. For how long a period ?
Mayor Kennelly. From a year and a half ago.
The Chairman. Show us what the situation was before and what
you have done about it.
Mr. Prendergast. It is pretty hard to show you what it was before.
Mayor Kennelly. There wasn't much done before.
Mr. Prendergast. You can base 3'our thoughts on it from this rec-
ord.
The Chairman. Mr. White, what would it be useful for as far as
we are concerned ? You are the expert.
Mr. WiiiiT,. I think the statistics compiled by your crime-preven-
tion bureau along that line might be helpful.
Mr. Prendergast. For Avhat period ?
Mr. Boyle. You mean the crime-prevention bureau that was set up ?
Mr. White. Yes. I glanced through those yesterday and I think
there are some interesting figures in there.
Mayor Kennelly. You mean the one that the State's attorney's
office prepared ?
Mr. White. :Mr. Boyle's office.
Mr. Boyle. You should get them from the commissioner's office.
Ours stem from the juvenile court originally. In a 6-month period
thev had 65 addicts under the age of 16.
130 ORGANIZED CRIME^ lA^ IX.TERSTATE COMMERCE
Tlie Chairman. Can we get them from botli of you ?
Mr. EoYLE. Yes.
Mr. Prendergast. Yes.
Mr. Boyle. Once an addict becomes an addict, what are you going
to do about it? Yon and I or no one else is going to cure him. He
is going to be an addict as long as he lives. We have Dr. Ivy, the head
of our committee on crime prevention who is familiar with this, and
he said tliat after 13 years of treating thousands of these addicts he
knew of only one cure. That man has been cured for only 12 years.
He hasn't used narcotics in 12 years. Once he becomes an addict of
heroin, morphine or cocaine it is a problem from then until the day
he dies.
The Chairman. We would like to have not only your statistical
information, but any information you can give us as to any rings or
alleged rings that are operating in and out of Chicago in'narcotics.
Mr. Prendergast. My figures may be wrong on this. We got a
lead on some peddlers, and if my inemory is right we arrested 37
peddlers one night, together with the cooperation of the narcotics
unit of the Government. In one night we had 37 peddlers.
Mr. Halley. So that the committee's recorcls can show the com-
parison, can you give the committee the statistics on the arrests and
convictions for, say, the year and a half prior to the beginning of the
drive.
Mayor Kennelly. Yes.
Mr, Boyle. Frankly, your problem is in the colored section. That
is the biggest narcotics problem.
Mayor Kennelly. I would like to get this back to the gambling
picture. We haven't been satisfied with just closing up establishments
that are out in the open, that you find. We have made a drive on
the telephones, wire rooms. I will have the police department make
up a record of the places we have raided and the phones we have
taken out from information from the telephone company itself.
Mr. Halley. The committee would like to have that and in addi-
tion to that, all the information on the actual locations of drops that
you have.
The Chairman. And the names of the people operating them where
you have that.
Mr. Prendergast. The persons who were arrested.
Mayor Kennelly. Anything like that we will include in the re-
ports and let you have them.
The Chairman. Mr. Robinson had a few more questions.
Mr. Robinson. Mr. Mayor, I believe in your formal statement you
made reference to a fact which I am sure is all too true, that gambling
IS abetted and encouraged by the bettor. Would you say there is a
place among law-enforcement ofticials for one who habitually gambles?
Could he have the right mental approach to the enforcement of the
gambling laws?
Mayor Kennelly. If he gambled himself ?
Mr, Robinson. Yes.
Mayor Kennelly, No.
Mr. Robinson. Would you care to make or would the commissioner
care to make any comment regarding the policy racket in Chicago?
ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 131
Mayor Kexnei>ly. There is a policy racket that is very prevalent
out there. We drove it off the streets, as one minister out there said,
and drove it into the alleys.
Mr. KoBiNsox. Is it peculiar to any particular location?
Mayor Kexnelly. The Negro districts.
Mr. KoBiNsoN. In connection with the narcotics situation in the
colored district, has there been any indication of the sale of narcotics
being carried on by any known Communists^ *
Mayor Kennelly. I don't have that information. Maybe we can
dig that up for you and give you the names of people that we have
arrested.
The Chairman. Do you have that ?
Mr. pREXDERGRAST. I may say, with thousands of arrests that we
have made out there — and I mean thousands — the average age I would
say would be 24 or 25, including minors and if my figures are right, I
think in about 6 months we arrested 42 juveniles.
]\Iayor Kexnelly. Will you make a note and see if there is any in-
formation about Communists that we have^ We have a very good
detail that has to do with Communists in Chicago. They have the
records of most of them, I guess, and can tell you all about them. It
is surprising the information we have. I use it very often. We find
it in our race relations business.
Mr. Robinson. This is probably a question that might be more ap-
propriately directed to Mr. Boyle, but I wonder whether or not there
is any connnent with respect to the possible improvements in the rules
of criminal procedure in the local courts here.
Mr. Boyle. The Chicago Crime Commission has what they call the
crime commission bills, and I went down to the legislature and argued
before the judiciary committee of the Senate and also of the House.
We had five bills, and they certainly would have helped us. You
must understand that in Chicago as in Illinois, we are operating under
a constitution that was passed in 1870.
The Chairman. That is the same date the Tennessee Constitution
got passed.
Mr. Boyle. Are you operating under such constitution now ?
The Chairmax^. Ours has never been amended since that time.
Mr. Boyle. Neither has ours. It is practically the same constitu-
tion we had in 1848, which was adopted in 1870, and they have never
been able to amend it or change it. Cook County is the only county of
the 102 counties in Illinois that has only a 30-day grand jury, and that
applies not only to the regular grand jury that meets every month —
they have a continuous grand jury, 12 grand juries in each year, but no
grand jury can operate for more than 30 days. That applies also to a
special grand jury. In other words if a special grand jury was ap-
pointed to investigate a certain phase of crime, its life would be only
30 days, which is practically about 22 days. The crime commission
and other law enforcing agencies, including the mayor and the Gov-
ernor, tried to change that so that Cook County could get a grand
jury that would operate 6 months, and they were willing to settle for
even 3 months, 90 days. You can understand that once an investiga-
tion starts, at the end of about 20 working days, if that grand jury is
not finished, you would have to start all over again with the next grand
j"ry.
132 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INiTERSTATE COMMERCE
The Chairman, And take half the time gettiiio; them oriented to
what the previous grand jury said.
Mr. Boyle. Tliat is correct. You can't orient tliem by statements on
paper. You have to have Avitnesses appear and testify. The Federal
grand jury can meet for any length of time.
Mr. Keener. Eighteen months.
Mr. Boyle. The perjury bill, for instance. If a man testifies before
our grand jftry under oath and says a certain set of facts are true, he
then goes into court and testifies under oath directly opposite to what
he testified before the grand jury, it is the duty of the State's attorney
to prove — the proof is on the State's attorney to prove which statement
is true. The mere fact that they are directly opposite doesn't convict
him. We must prove which one is true when we take him to trial.
That is another bill we tried to change.
The crime commission tried to change the alibi bill. We tried to
help them all we could. The alibi bill is that within a certain number
of days before trial, if a defendant is going to produce an alibi he must
notify the State's attorney in writing so he can check to see whether
that alibi is true or false.
Another one was a public office holder or any public emplovee who
refuses to testify before a grand jury or before any judicial proceeding
on the ground that he might tend "to incriminate himself, if he says
that, then he forfeits his office.
What was the fifth one, Devereux ?
Mr. Devereux. Immunity.
Mr. Boyle. Imnumity, yes. We had a case before I became State's
attorney that was known as the Smokie case in which this fellow Vogel,
who is supposed to have the slot machines, his brother was involved.
There were saloon keepers or tavern owners who made statements that
they Avere forced to take these slot machines. The case went to trial.
These 30 tavern owners refused to testify on the grounds they would
tend to incriminate themselves, even though they weren't indicted and
no warrant was issued against them or anything else. Of course, the
court sustained their right to refuse to testify on the ground that they
might tend to incriminate themselves. The law that the crime com-
mission was trying to pass was that the court could turn to the wit-
ness and say, "I grant you immunity in this particular case." The
court would have the right to grant them immunity and then they
would have to testify. But every one of those bills was defeated.
They were fought and really fought down there.
Mr. Halley. Did the bar association approve them?
Mr. Boyle. Yes, and the State's attorneys association of which I am
a member, that is, all the State's attorneys, approved them.
Mv. Halley. Who fought them in the legislature ?
Mr. Boyle. Certain members of the State legislature, a bloc.
Mr. Halley. Wlio would you say was the leadership of that op-
position ?
Mr. Boyle. I would sa}^ that Jimmie Adduci, Petrone — you know
them, Devereux.
Mr. Devereux. Libonati, Adduci, and Petrone are what we call here
locally the West Side Italian bloc.
Mr. Halley. Could they alone do it?
Mr. Boyle. Frankly, we feel that they made a deal with some repre-
sentatives down State for other legislation so that they would buck
ORGANIZED CRIME' IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 133
these bills with them. Tliere was only one bill that got out of com-
mittee, wasn't there, the grand jury bill.
Mr. Devereux. The grand jury bill was reported out.
Mr. Boyle. Reported out and beaten. We have the biggest county
in the United States here in Cook County. We have nearly 5,000,000
people here. We are operating under an 1818 constitution instead
of an 1870 constitution. It is 100 j^ears old. You asked me why
we didn't bring in these fellows and say, What are you doing now?
They won't answer. They will give you their name and address and
won't tell you anj-thing else. Under our rules and under our rules of
procedure that is all they have to tell us. No man has to give testimony
against himself.
Mr. Halley. What deal did they make in the legislature so far as
you know?
Mr. Boyle. Devereux was down there, weren't you?
Mr. De-\^reux. No; I wasn't down there.
The Chairman. ]\Ir. Devereux, move up here and join the group.
We will swear you. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give
this committee will be the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so
help 3'ou God?
]SIr. Devereux. Yes, sir.
Mr. Boyle. As State's attorney of Cook County I have to try cases
on the law and evidence. I also took an oath to uphold the Constitu-
tion of the United States and the State of Illinois and that isn't any
idle oath. I have to do it. I can't try people on their re])utations.
I did that once when I was an assistant. I tried a bunch of fellows on
their reputations, convicted them with juries, and went to the supreme
court and they were reversed — Jack Packburn, Bill Casto, Louis Al-
teri, and Maxie Isen. It went on for about 6 or 7 months. They were
the so-called members at that time. Gus Winkler. I guess they are all
dead, they have all been murdered. Only one of them died a natural
death.. We tried them on their reputations. It is a little far-fetched
when you look back on it. We had police officers come in and testify
that the}^ were reputed to carry guns, had a bad reputation in the com-
munity in which they lived. They were reputed to be gangsters. The
juries went out and convicted them in 10 or 15 minutes, but the con-
victions didn't stand. As w^e look back on it now, we have the civil
rights groups, the civil liberties groups and everybody else tearing our
heads oil' today, and they weren't in existence at that time.
Mr. Halley. It is very important in trying to pin down the re-
sponsibility for the defeat of these criminal procedural bills that the
committee know exactly who spearheaded the thing, and in that con-
nection I think it is important that we know with whom they made a
deal and what kind of deal they made, if you know it.
Mr. Boyle. This fellow. Reed Cutler, from down State gave us a bad
time before the committee. What is this fellow's name in Rock Island,
the little representative ?
Mr. Devereux. I have forgotten his name. I would suggest to the
committee that the best informed man on this is Fred Pretzie, admin-
istrative assistant to Mr. Peterson, who attended every session of the
legislature 2 years ago, and is the active man in the commission in at-
tempting to line up our commission forces to introduce two bills at
the forthcoming legislature next January. We have cut down the five
bills to two on the chance that maybe we can get those swung.
134 ORGAMZED CRIME' IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
The Chairman. While we are on this, Mr. Robinson, will you place
the gentleman you talked about under subpena. What is his name?
Mr. Boyle. Mr. Pretzie will come over this afternoon.
The Chairman. Let's get him over.
Mr. Halley. Was there any opi^osition to these bills on what you
might say their merits, on reasonable grounds, that was raised at the
time of their committee consideration ?
Mr. Boyle. The point that was raised was that you were depriving
people of the rights they had under the constitution and the laws of
the State of Illinois, that you were depriving the defendant of a
fair trial in a courtroom. They qnestioned the constitutionality of
several of these things.
The Chairman. You didn't believe that was the actual reason for
their opposition, did you?
Mr. Boyle. No; I did not. I think some of them were honest in
their opposition. There were some good lawyers in the legislature.
Mr. Devereux. There were a lot oi good arguments on the alibi bill.
Mr. Boyle. A defendant doesn't have to testify at all in a criminal
case. They claim why would we have to come in and say I am going
to give you an alibi. Some of them were sincere in their arguments
against the bill.
The Chairman. We may have some substantial evidence, and I
think we will try to make some inquiry along that line, but we cer-
tainly would appreciate any information you can give us as to any of
the so-called gangster element influencing any of these legislators or
associations that might have influenced them.
Mr. Robinson. Isn't it true that one of the legislators Avho was
violently opposed to the bill had a criminal record ?
Mr. Boyle. Criminal record?
Mr. Robinson. Yes.
Mr. Boyle. A member of the legislature ?
Mr. Devereux. Yes, one of them has a record. I have forgotten,
he is one of the West Side Italian group, Adduci ?
Mr. Boyle. Yes. Under the Vagrancy Act. I tried him before
a jury. That was before he w^as a State representative, but he wasn't
convicted.
The Chairman. I know Mayor Kennelly is terribly busy. Would
you like for us to finish with you ?
Mayor Kennelly. No. Go ahead. I was to go to Washington, but
I canceled that.
(Off the record.)
The Chairman. Mayor Kennelly, you have followed up this matter
a good deal and all of you gentlemen have. Will you now and at a
later time after you have given the matter more thought and study,
give us your recommendations as to what if any Federal laws you
think might be strengthened that would help you with your local
law enforcement problems? Any Federal laws that you think might
be passed. To draw out your thinking on the matter, in our interim
report on Florida, we list some of the recommendations that we are
considering. I don't mean that we have agreed on these at all. They
are just being considered.
Mayor Kennelly. What are you trying to accomplish, Senator?
The Chairman. I will give you this.
ORGANIZED CRIME' IN INTERSTATE CIOMMER'CE 135
Mayor Kexnelly. I believe you sent me a copy of this.
Mr. Halley. Yes.
The Chairman. Let's see that copies get to all these gentlemen.
Mayor Kennelly. What are you trying to accomplish? What is
the purpose of the investigation? Are you trying to eliminate
gambling as such ? Are 3'ou tr^'ing to eliminate people from control-
ling gambling, certain people, people with criminal records? Just
what are we trying to accomplish?
The Chairman. I am glad you have asked the question, and we
should have said something about it while the boys of the press were
here. AVe are not naive enough to believe that any group or anybody
can stop gambling. What we hope to help do is to throw blocks in
the way of the interstate ramifications and the operation of it across
State lines so that it might be reduced to a local problem where you
could cope with the matter better. We find generally that the heart of
the thing, the arteries of it, are through the wire service. At most of
the places we have been the distribution and the subdistribution of the
wire service is used as the nucleus for gambling activity, and around
these distributors are a bunch of hoodlums and racketeers in a great
many instances which very adversely affects the local law-enforce-
ment problem. If in any proper way, without impinging on the right-
ful jurisdiction of the local communities, we can cut out and- block
some of the interstate communications aspects of it, in that way,
by the transportation of slot machines or by being certain that these
people are taxed and taxed to the limit and that they pay their taxes
through the income-tax laws, then that is what we are interested in.
Of course, that refers only to the gambling part. We also are
examining all of our Federal statutes, our postal statutes, the mail-
fraud statutes, the narcotics laws, and all other Federal laws to see
what we can do to strengthen them. A whole lot of this is carried
on through the mails at the present time. I don't know what the situa-
tion here is, but in St. Louis, for instance, we found that one outfit had
mail connections with Western L^nion operators in 19 or 20 States,
I believe, wdiere they were their local agents for the purpose of making
book and then communicating back and forth oif the Western Union
lines and then clearing through the mail. Mayor Morrison, as you
know, and the American Municipal Association, felt that by the
strength of their wealth and their connections through the country
they were able to exert influences and to operate in such a way that
in some cases it was almost beyond the ability of local communities to
cope with them. If you remember, the American ^lunicipal Associa-
tion and the Mayors' Conference passed a resolution asking that the
matter be gone i}ito.
Mayor Kennelly. You certainly are tackling a big job.
The Chairman. We have found that out.
Mayor Kennelly. We have been working at this day in and day
out. I talk to the police department every morning, and maybe two
or three times a day, trying to do something about crime, and trying
to do something about gambling particularly, because it burns me up
to find that these operations go on and are protected.
Mr. Halley. Mr. Chairman, may I read into the record now, lie-
cause I think it is pertinent, conclusion No. 7 in the interim report
filed by the committee. The committee has seven conclusions of a
136 ORGANIZED CRIME. IN INiTERSTATE COMMERCE
general iiatiire and then referred specifically to the Miami investiga-
tion. No. T was tlie final conclusion of the general conclusions. ^It
i"eads as follows:
It is essential that the true nature of the evil be recognized. The question
is not whether gambling or any other form of illegal activity is morally good or
bad. It is. rather, that we must weigh the full evil effects upon 'the body
politic of permitting powerful groups of criminals to utilize the channels of
interstate commerce for the purpose of controlling illegal enterpi-ises when it is
clear that these groups now obtain and always have secured their power by (1)
using violence and intimidation: (2) attempting to corrupt and control" local
government; (.3) obtaining overbearing economic power by amassing great
wealth through nonpayment of taxes and by means of monopoly.
I think the specific things the chairman has mentioned have been
the si^ecific manifestations summed up in this general conclusion.
The Chairman. Mr. Robinson, do you have any more questions of
the mayor?
Mr. RoBiNsox. No further questions.
Mayor Kennelly. I have always thought it strange that the tele-
phone company could or would put phones into gambling houses,
whether they wouldn't have some discretional^ power to say whether
that was a proper place, or whether the number of phones going in
was proper. I know in one raid they made there were 30 phones over
here in one of the office buildings. There was no way in the world
to find it. We just happened to get it through some undercover man
who brought it in. I have often wondered why that would be per-
mitted, whether the telephone company hadn't some obligation, too, in
getting this information around.
The Chairman. That is quite right, and particularly during time
of war, when telephones were very difficult to get, we found in some
places the bookies had no trouble getting banks of telephones.
Mayor Kennelly. The telephone company does cooperate with us
when they find these places.
Mr. Prendergast. We do report them to the telephone company
Mr. Boyle. There are about 13,000 phones.
Mr. Prendergast. I think there were over 2,000 in Chicago alone.
Mr. Boyle. That is over a period of some time. Their attitude is
that they are a public-service company, and anybody who applies for
a telephone they should give it to them until* they learn later that
they are in the gambling business and then they takeit out. They wait
until somebody complains.
(Discussion off the record.)
The Chairman. Attorney General Elliott's statement to the com-
mittee of July 11, 1950, will be made a part of the record at this
point.
(Statement of Ivan A. Elliott, attorney general. State of Illinois, is
identified as exhibit No. 22, and is on file\vith the committee.)
The Chairman. The committee will stand in recess until 2 : 15 p. m.
(Whereupon, at 1 p. m. the committee recessed until 2:15 p. m.'
the same day.)
afterncon session
(The committee reconvened at 2 : 20 p. m. pursuant to the taking of
the noon recess. )
The Chairman. Gentleman, we have decided that we probably will
make better progress if we keep one witness at a time and 'finish
ORGANIZED CRIME« IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 137
with liis testimony and then carry on from thei'e. So, we are going
to start with you, Chief Prendergast.
I will have to ask everybody else to wait outside until you are called
except Federal officials.
Mr. Halley, do 3^ou or Mr. Robinson have anything else to ask Chief
Prendergast ?
Mr. Halley. I think we will ask Mr. Robinson to go ahead. Are
there any other specihc points at this time ?
FURTHER TESTIMONY OF JOHN C. PRENDERGAST, COMMISSIONER
OF POLICE, CHICAGO, ILL.
Mr. RoBixsox. 1 have a few questions I would like to ask you, Com-
missioner. Maybe some of them were touched on.
Do you have any system of investigating your police officers?
Mr. Prendergast. 1 have a department inspector, we call him.
This is not in the way of an alibi. Prior to the reorganization I had
none, ])ractically. Now 1 have two assistants.
Mr. RoBiNsox. I think it might be helpful if you could give a very
brief sketch of what the organization of j^our police department is.
Mr. Prendergast. My organization today consists of the commis-
sioner, of course, two deputy commissioners, one in charge of staff
services and one in charge of field services. The man in charge of
staff services, of course, takes care of the office routine. The man
in charge of the field services has charge of the detective bureau,
the district stations, and the uniform branches of the department,
and traffic. Under him there are deputies. There is a chief of the
traffic and a chief of detectives and the chief of the uniform force. If
you want a breakdown, I will have it laid out for you in a regular
graph.
Mr. Robinson. You have a graph or chart that we could have ^
Mr. Prendergast. Yes.
The Chairman. Let us have that and we will put it in the record
as an exhibit to the commissioner's testimony.
(The chart referred to is identified as exhibit Xo. '2'S, and appears
in the appendix facing p. 1380.)
Mr. RdBiNsoN. Do you have any particular precincts that you clas-
sify as ihe worse precincts so far as crime is concerned ?
Mr. Prendergast. Of course, the Loop district, I would say, and
the twenty-sixth district and the thirty-fifth district. The Loop
district takes in the entire Loop to Twenty-second Street and the Lake
to the river. The thirty-fifth district is north of the river. The
boundaries of that district are from the river to Division Street and
from the Lake to the river. And the twenty-sixth district is west
of the river. In fact, my river wards — and I may say two or three of
my South Side districts — the third, fourth, and fifth — there is more
crime in the fifth district than any other four districts in Chicago.
Mr. Robinson. How long have the police captains been in those
particular districts ?
Mr. Prendergast. Offhand, I don't know. The captain of the
twenty-sixth district, I would say, was in there for maybe a year and
a half. The captain of the thirty-fifth district was transferred out of
68958 — 51 — pt. 5—^10
138 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INiTERSTATE COMMERCE
there, and I transferred him back hiter on. The captain of the first
district has been there for several years,
. Mr. RoHiNSON. Was there any particular reason for the transfer?
Mr. Prexdergast. No. As a young- patrolman, I worked in the
thirty-fiftli district, and I would say it is a district where you have to
be a two-fisted fellow. When you leave the station you never know
Avhether you are going to run into an argument or not. That was the
reason I assigned them back there. Captain Brodie is in charge of
the first district and Captain Hartford of the twenty-sixth district.
Captain Harrison
Mr. Robinson. He is the Captain Harrison who was removed at
one time from the force ?
Mr. Prendergast. Yes. He was discharged and later on reinstated,
along with several other captains. That was back several years ago.
Mr. Robinson. Has there been any investigation made with respect
to Captain Harrison so far as his accumulation of wealth is concerned ?
Mr. Prendergast. I don't know what Captain Harrison has.
Mr. Robinson. You don't know ?
Mr. Prendergast. No ; I do not. I have access to the files, of course,
to show how much these captains have.
The Chairman. What does it do to the morale? Do you make
charges before the civil-service commission and then they are dis-
charged, and they appeal it and come back? Do you lose your effec-
tiveness over them? What does that do to the morale of the organ-
ization?
Mr. Prendergast. I think the greater number of captains that would
be discharged — I think they would be more careful in the future.
That would be my impression.
The Chairman. I just wondered whether they would say, "Oh, it
doesn't make much difference about the commissioner. If he dis-
charges us we will just appeal it."
Mr. Prendergast. I don't know whether any of these captains have
$5 or $5,000,000. There is no way I can find out.
The Chairman. Is that important for you to know ?
Mr. Prendergast. I would love to know\
Mr. Robinson. Isn't there any way that you can find out information
in that respect ?
Mr. Prendergast. The statistics that I mentioned. You will find
some of them here before you get through. They don't talk.
Mr. Halley. Some of these fellows have obvious wealth.
Mr. Prendergast. Yes ; they have.
Mr. Robinson. Is there no way you can check up on their homes ?
Mr. Prendergast. I don't believe those homes were purchased dur-
ing my time as commissioner.
Mr. Halley. Of course, but they have them now.
Mr. Prendergast. They have them.
Mr. Halley. Who are the people that you know of your own knoAvl-
edge who live well ?
Mr. Prendergast. I know one has a beautiful home. There are
captains in my department. I don't associate with them.
Mr. Halley. Commissioner, you have the reputation of being a
completely honest and hard-hitting law enforcement officer. You
have lived in this city all your life, and you know the story. Who are
ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 139
the men with the rank of, say, lieutenant and higher in yonr force who
must, from just mere observation, have other means of support than
their salarj^ ^
Mr. Prendergast. I can honestly tell you I don't know. I don't
know their private lives. I don't know where five of them live.
Mr. Halley. You have mentioned one. Aren't there some others?
Mr. Prendergast. I have a beautiful home, but it didn't cost me
much. I paid $11,500 for it. The other day I refused $45,000 for it.
I have a beautiful home.
Mr. RoBixsox. I don't think it is probably your province to pry into
the private lives of the men working for you, but it seems to me there
should be some way that you can check to some extent on their accumu-
lation of wealth that would seems to be a little bit inconsistent with the
salary they receive as a police captain.
Mr. Prex'dergast, I am not avoiding any responsibility. I don't
want to avoid any responsibility. But up to the time of this reorgani-
zation I had the entire police department on my shoulders. When I
got assistants, I immediately put them to work.
Mr. Halley. How about this fellow Goldberg ? Does he appear to
have wealth '^
Mr. Prendergast. As far as I know, Goldberg lives in a hotel up on
the North Side. He owns some property in Arizona, is that it? In
Arizona. What he owns out there I don't know. AVhen he got it I
don't know. It seems to me that he got that piece of property many
years ago. I don't know just when he purchased it. He was out there
about a month and a half ago or a month ago.
But I don't know anything about Arizona. I don't know anything
about Arizona property.
Mr. Robinson; What precinct does he have ?
Mr. Prendergast. He is at the thirty-seventh precinct.
Mr. RoBiN^soN. Is that one of those you consider to be
Mr. Prendergast. No, no. His district is changing. It is getting
to be more of a hotel district. It has changed in the last 7 or 8 or 10
years.
Mr. RoBiNSOx". Do j^ou have any problem so far as interference with
the police precinct captains' activities with respect to the ward com-
mitteemen ?
Mr. Prex'dergast. No, sir.
Mr. Robinson. Do they attempt to exert any particular pressure on
you insofar as the appointment of people to a particular precinct or
ward ?
Mr. Prex^dergast. No. sir. I was appointed commissioner under
a former mayor, and I told him at that time, "I will take the position
as commissioner provided you let me run it, because there is a lot of
work to be done.'' I think we have made vast improvements. In
fact, I know we have.
Mr. Robinson. Here is another point I would like to discuss with
you, Commissioner. I think the mayor touched on it in his statement.
What is the extent of your police training?
Mr. Prendergast. We have an extensive training course. Before I
took over — do you want to take this off the record for a moment.
(Off the record.)
Mr. Prex-^dergast. It always has been my pet to bring policemen up
to standard by presenting an educational program to them. Prior to
140 ORGANIZED CRIMD IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
my takino; over, no captain, no lieutenant, no sergeant was ever given
a departmental education, and I immediately started in, and some of
the newspapers criticized me because I took the captain out on the
floor in a drill hall and I put him through his drills. These captains
didn't know the connnands. They didn't know how to handle a com-
pany. So from that day on, we have had a continuous training pro-
gram in the ]jolice department.
Mr. I\OBiNsox. You conduct a regular training school *.
Mr. PRENDEi'.GAST. A regular training school. It is not conducted
entirely by the police department. We call for outside aid and as-
sistance to present different subjects to the policemen. I have a
laboratory clown there, and I consider it the Jbest laboratory in the
\^'orld. That is really my pet. Police officials tliroughout the coun-
try and throughout the world drop in to Chicago and say it is the
greatest laboratory in the world. When I took over there were 300
cases lying on the floors up there, no reports on them. I called the
man in charge. We had the 300 cases cleaned up, and in about 45
days I made another check and learned that he had 21) or 30 cases.
Now you get a report from my laboratory in half an hour,
Mr. Robinson. What number of policemen are sent from Chicago
to the Federal Bureau Academy 'I
Mr. Prendergast. Prior to ni}' taking over we had two men at the
FBI school in Washington, and I have had a man at every session. In
fact, the other day I received a message that the Federal Bureau of
Investigation Avants to take over my last candidate that I liad there.
They want him to join up with their forces, but I am not going to let
him go. He is too valuable to me. When these men returned, prior
to my taking over, they were sent to districts. The time, the money
and the energy that were spent were just closeted among themselves.
I have taken my men w'ho have finished the FBI school and sent them
immediately into my training division.
Mr. Robinson. To what extent do you have liaison with other police
departments of other large cities ?
Mr. Prendergast. Just through correspondence, that is all.
Mr. Robinson. Is there no exchange of information?
Mr. Prendergast. Very seldom. That is, they come into Chicago
on trips for information.
Mr. Robinson. Do you keep track in any way of these well-known
hoodlums, when they depart from Chicago and go somewhere else^
Do you forward any information to the place that you suspect they
are going to?
Mr. Prendergast. We do not.
Mr. Robinson. There is no watch or anything like that kept on
them ?
Mr. Prendergast. No. ^
Mr. Robinson. Do you think that there could be improvements in
that direction?
Mr. Prendergast. I think there should be a closer friendship be-
tween the police departments in the country. You see, when we step
outside our city line, we are lost. I really think this bill that you are
about to present is going to do a lot of good for a city like Chicago at
least 6 months of the year because locally we have in the Chicago area,
not in Chicago proper, we have six race tracks, I believe, out on the
ORGANIZED CRIM& IX INTERSTATE COMAIERCE 141
outer ed^es, but tliev are closed down about this time and they won't
open up for about ti months. I feel that with the passa<re of this le<,ns-
lation. for 6 months we can center more activity on crime, altliou^ri
as the mayor stated, our crime has decreased m Chicago over l.)4J
We have ;is fine a statistical unit as there is m the country. U hen 1
look over I called in the Federal Bureau of Investigation and I asked
them to send a representative in here to bring up my crime report. L
dare sav many of these captains were not reporting crimes m order
to make it look good for themselves. Now we tell the captain how
much crime is in his district. .
]Mr. RoBixsoN. One thing that has come to our attention while w;e
have been here is in connection with the pay-off to policemen. It is
entirelv possible that a great deal of it is rumor, but it seems to me
that it^is a rumor that persists. Is there any action that the police
dei:>artment takes ^ Have they made a thorough investigation ?
Mr. Prendekgast. When it is called to our attention we make an
investigation. .
Mr. KoBiNSON. How many instances have there been wlien it was
called to your attention? . „ . ,
^Ir. Prexdergast. Very, very few. The only information we get
about policemen accepting gratuities is from the automobilists, when
a man driving his car is stopped by a motorcycle policeman.
Mr. Robinson. You don't periodically initiate any investigation on
your own ? , • x i v ^i
^ Mr. Prendergast. Xo. I don't have the equipment. 1 haven t tlie
equipment. Today I am working with 6,300 patrolmen m Chicago,
and I would say about 250 of those men are sick, on the medical rolls,
and the different details the mayor talked about this morning, men
a Nef^ro family moves into an outside area, an entirely white area, it is
necessary to send some 500 policemen out there for 24 hours, not for
this building here, but for the surrounding area.
We are very timid and I would say frightened about racial disturb-
ances If a race riot ever starts iii Chicago there will be a tough
time We have I would say over 500,000 Negroes in Chicago and that
is what we are fearful of more than anything else. I would say the
district from Twenty-second Street to Sixty-first Street, say Sixty-
third Street, and from Windsor Avenue to Cottage Grove Avenue, is
practically 100 percent Negro. If the Negro takes up arms and tries
to move tiie white out of there, then we will have trouble.
:^Ir. Robinson. Commissioner, you have been with the force and
have been commissioner for some time. Would you care to state what
you consider to be the defects in the system?
Mr. Prendergast. In my system ?
Mr. Robinson. And what you would recommend and what you may
have recommended by way of improving the system '.
Mr Prendergast. *If the city had the financial help, if they could
give me help financially, I shoiild have 9,000 policemen in Chicago.
^ The CHAiR:kiAN. How many do you have now ?
Mr. Prendergast. Sixty-three hundred. In my division alone, i
have over 1,000 men, and they are taken off the street. I am a firm be-
liever in the old-time policemen who travels the post. As a youngster,
I was born and raised in Chicago. I knew that policemen to travel
that beat. If I was out after 10 o'clock at night he wanted to know
why I am a firm believer in bringing back the old-time— not the old-
142 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN IKiTERSTATE COMMERCE
time, but the old-time method of having the district properly policed
with the man on foot, instead of automobile. I am afraid at times
we go in too much to create a motorized department. With the size
of Chicago, covering 212 square miles and over 31/2 million people,
closer to 4 million, I would" say, with every nationality in the world
within our borders, I think in order to do any kind of job at all, me or
any other commissioner, we should have at least 9,000 policemen. I
think the records last year showed that there were 384,000 broadcasts
made out of my central complaint bureau. That is big business.
Every one of those broadcasts was in connection with some kind of
complaint for crime.
Mr. Robinson. Do you think the salary basis is so low that you
cannot attract good men?
Mr. Prendergast. I can't attract them. I am losing men every day.
Mr. Robinson. What is the rate of your turn-over?
Mr. PfeENDERGAST. I would Say in the last month and a half I have
lost 50 or 60 men who resigned to take other positions.
Mr. Robinson. You consider that a high rate ?
Mr. Prendergast. Yes, for resignations. Because there was always
an incentive for a policeman in the police department. He looked
forward to the day when he got his pension. In fact, that is what
hooked me into the department. I looked forward to the day when
1 got my pension. There was a feeling of security. But today they
can go out in the field and get more money than a policeman, they can
have reasonable hours, work days all the time, they are home with their
wives practically all Saturday and Sunday. So the incentive is not
there today to join the police department. I think, as the mayor said,
with an increase in salary for the policemen we will create a new field.
I dare say we have some very fine men in the department, men who
are interested in the police department, interested in police work.
We have college graduates. I located a boy — I call him a boy — one of
my policemen out on the South Side when I reestablished the labora-
tory, and I learned that he was a chemist. I sent after him, and I
said, 'T want you to go into the laboratory." He said. 'T could never
get in there before, but it is my life." Later on I found out, along
with being a graduate chemist with a degree, he was also a lawyer and
he was working for a patrolman's salary. I have given him a special
assignment and a special salary over there.
Mr. Robinson. Do you find any deficiencies in connection with the
coordination of your department with the office of ihe sheriif and the
State police?
Mr. Prendergast. Of course the sheriff takes care of everything out-
side of Cook County, and the State police very infrequently come into
Chicago.
Mr. Robinson. Does your office maintain liaison with those offices?
Mr. Prendergast. We are very friendly. In fact, the head of the
Illinois State police today is one of my captains on furlough, Tom
O'Donnel.
Mr. Robinson. I wasn't speaking so much. Commissioner, of friend-
ship. Is there any mechanical, actual physical liaison with those
offices ?
Mr. Prendergast. No.
Mr. Robinson. In other words, are you kept well posted on what the
the sheriff's office is doing and do you keep him posted ?
OBGAXIZED CRIAIE IN I>«'TER STATE C10M]VIERCE 143
Mr. Prendergast. No; I do not.
Mr. Robinson. This is a case of sort of dealing at arm's length?
Mr. Prendergast. Most likely.
Mr. Robinson. Do you think that is beneficial ?
Mr. Prendergast. Of course, if I have anything that would interest
the sheritf, I would innnediately acquaint him with it. On the other
side, I know that he would do the same with me. As far as the State
police are concerned, I don't believe they ever called at my office,
except that man O'Donnel, who was appointed head of the State
police. Of course, he was one of my captains. I dare say he is a very
good captain. I think they made a very good selection.
Mr. Robinson. Do you think the low pay of the police is quite an
incentive to take money from some of these establishments ?
Mr. Prendergast. I would say if they are doing it it is the princi-
pal cause.
Mr. Robinson. You say that is the principal cause ?
Mr. Prendergast. I would say if they are doing it, that is the
principal cause, because they have families. I know the mayor is
very much interested in seeking funds from some source. He did go
to Springfield to try to get some aid from Springfield and was
refused.
Mr. Robinson. Would you care to make any comment with respect
to any problems you have with respect to the courts in Chicago?
]\Ir. Prendergast. Of course, some of the courts are I think a little
lenient.
The Chairman. What is that. Commissioner?
Mr. Prendergast. A little lenient. Of course, some of the raids —
I was on the street myself for many years — some of the raids I made
on gambling, houses of prostitution, I know that I didn't have a war-
rant. When you haven't got a warrant, when you get your evidence
illegally, the courts hold in many instances that you have no case.
But at least I don't disregard that. I say, make the arrest. You are
at least inconveniencing them.
Mr. Robinson. That may be true, but let's take a case or any number
of cases based on your experience where there was no question about
the arrest being illegal, has there been a tendency on the part of the
courts to be very lenient so far as the sentencing of gamblers or peo-
ple running gambling establishments or houses of prostitution and so
forth?
Mr. Prendergast. There may be. In my estimation, it is a little bit
lenient. Of course I am looking at it as a policeman, not as a judge.
Mr. Robinson. Your feeling is that if they were a little stricter in
their sentencing, it would be beneficial to your force and not be so
demoralizing?
Mr. Prendergast. I would like that. I would love it. I think it
would raise the standards of your police department or other depart-
ments, the sheriff's office.
Mr. Robinson. In other words it wouldn't be so discouraging to the
policeman.
Mr. Prendergast. It is discouraging at times. As I said before, I
worked on the street. It was mighty discouraging when you worked
for maybe 7 or 8 or 10 days on a certain case, then to walk in and the
judge say, "Discharged." It is discouraging.
144 ORGAKIZED CRIMEi IN INfTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mv. Robinson. Does your office, Commissioner, liave any statistics
on the number of unsolved crimes in Chicago ?
Mr. Prexdergast. Oh, yes. For what period?
Mr. Robinson. Over a period of 25 or 80 years. I think that might
be of some vahie to the committee on a comparative basis.
Mr. Prendergast. I ]:)icked that up. I just made some notes up
here [handing paper to Mr. Robinson].
Mr. Robinson. I think this might possibly be made a part of the
record, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. All right, this will be made a part of the record.
These are comparative figures for the first 10 months of 1949 and 1950,
showing a decrease of 636 crimes. Is this the number of crimes
reported or what ?
Mr. Prendergast. Number of crimes reported, sir.
The Chairman. Let this be made an exhibit.
(The information referred to is identified as exhibit No. 24, and is
on file with the committee.)
The Chairman. What we wanted was over the last 10 or 15 years,
the number and the names of any of the unsolved murders, say.
Mr. Prendergast. I can get that for you.
The Chairman. All right, sir, if you will.
Mr. Prendergast. Ten years ?
The Chairman. I think 10 years would be sufficient.
How long have you been commissioner of police ?
Mr. Prendergast. I became commissioner January 1, 1946. It
was the only mistake I ever made in the police department.
Tlie Chairman. When you became commissioner ?
]\Ir. Prendergast. Yes.
The Chairman. What were you right before you were commis-
sioner ?
Mr. Prendergast. I have held every position in the police depart-
ment.- I was patrolman, sergeant, lieutenant, captain, and at one time
we had a supervising captain, an office of supervising captain, and I
was appointed supervising captain. Later on I was appointed chief
of the uniformed force, and then into the commissioner's office. I will
say this — and I am under oath here — I have never given anybody a
cigar.
Mr. Robinson. What is the present salary of a captain on the force?
Mr. Prendergast. $5,226.
Mr. Robinson. Are promotions on the force subject to civil-service
rules and regulations ?
Mr. Prendergast. Yes, sir.
Mr. Robinson. Is there ever any influence exerted on you to get
people promoted ?
Mr. Prendergast. No. Of course I have passed on very few exam-
inations. My only part in the examinations is creating the efficiency.
I gather up my material. Every 6 months we prepare a report which is
known as the props report. They are all patrolmen. I took the props
reports for 31/2 years, and then I took the dismissals, discharges, sus-
pensions, creditable mentions, and one time we gave extra compensa-
tion for extra meritorious work, and I drew up a balance from that.
I think it was a very fair way.
Mr. Robinson. Commissioner, would you care to make any obser-
vations about the Drury shooting? I have in mind particularly if
you think there is any way that the committee can help.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 145
Mr. Prendergast. I knew Dniry. When he ^Yas a reinstated man
to the department all of my district stations were filled, so I assigned
him to mnrders that were not cleared up. Drury was the most peculiar
sort of fellow. I would say he was sort of egotistical m his ways.
Mr. Robinson. Is there any particular reason why you assigned him
to that function? i . -^
Mr. Prendergast. No, I just had him left over. I thought it
Avould he a great thing for him to do, to come back as a new captain
after being discharged, if he could go out in the field and clear up
some of these murders. That was my thought. In fact. I was giving
him something, if I were discharged, that I would just have loved
to be given that opportunity on murders that were not cleared up.
I^Ii-r Robinson. Do vou think he had any particular qualifications
for that?
^Ir. Prendergast. I never worked with him. He was never as-
signed to any station that I was assigned to. I thought he could
do some work in that field.
Mr. Robinson. AVas Connelly assigned at the same time ?
Mr. Prendergast. Connelly and Drury were together.
jMr. Robinson. Did he have any particular qualihcations for that
assionment ?
Mr. Prendergast. They were what I would call a fair team, one
]~»rooTessive and the other standing back looking over the situation.
If you place two men together, assign two men together, and if they
are both of the same temperament and the same make-up, as a rule
they don't make, good detectives. I like one slow and plodding and
then an energetic man alongside of him.
Mv. Robinson. Had thev been in detective work prior to that?
Mr. Prendergast. Oh, yes. They had been in the detective bureau
for many, many years, I think.
Mr. R"obinson.' Did they ever produce any results ?
Mr. Prendergast. Oh,' they arrested quite a few around Chicago.
Mr. RoBixsox. No, I mean did they ever unravel any of the unsolved
murders, the job to which they w^ere assigned ?
Mr. Prendergast. I wouldn't say. I don't know.
The Chairman. Anything else, Mr. Robinson?
Mr. Prendergast. I would like to make a little statement about
this narcotics situation. That is very bad in Chicago, especially
among our colored. As I said this morning, the average age of the
narcotic user other than colored is about 24. I do know that the
armed services won't take the user. AVe just have to think about it.
I did appear before a committee from Springfield, and I asked that
the laws be c'hanged in the State of Illinois. I think that will be
presented at the next session, making it a felony for any peddler of
narcotics to sell to a minor.
The CiiAiRMAx. VTimt happened to your recommendation ?
Mr. Prendergast. That is in the course now.
The Chairman. The law was changed?
Mr. Prendergast. No; it is to be presented at the next session in
Springfield. ■, n -, ■, j- q
The Chairman. Why didn't it get past when you had it up before ?
Mr. Prendergast. They haven't had a session since then. It is a
new law.
146 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
The Chairman. What can the Congress do about the narcotic
matter ?
Mr. Prendergast. I don't know. I think it is a big qriestion. As
was stated this morning, once a user, always a user. In my younger
days I knew quite a few users, and I never knew one of them who got
away. They may get away from marihuana, and they may get away
from morphine, but when they start to cocaine or heroin, they never
get away from it. I just dropped that in for some consideration by
this committee.
Mr. Robinson. Along that line what I was going to ask is, Do you
think that your own narcotics squad and the number of Federal agents
there are assigned here in Chicago to narcotics is sufficient to cope
with the situation?
Mr. Prendergast. I say this about the Federal agents : I don't think
there are enough Federal agents in Chicago. As I understand it, they
have three or four States to look after. The Federal agents in Chicago
should number at least 40. We ran into a lead that led us into the
peddler — my figures may be a little wrong on this, but as I recall it,
we picked up 37 peddlers one night. Of course we set a zero hour for
them and the narcotics agents worked very close with us. At one
minute we all stepi^ed in, and we drew in 37 peddlers. I am just
dropping that to you because I know what it is going to mean to our
American kids.
The Chairman. Commissioner, I have just two or three very brief
questions. Do you want to tell us about any clue as to whether you
think our committee work was in any way responsible for the killing
of Drury or this fellow Bas?
Mr. Prendergast. I don't think the Drury and Bas cases are asso-
ciated at all.
The Chairman. I mean, do you think either one of them
Mr. Prendergast. At this time I couldn't say. I have 58 men work-
ing on those two cases, and if anything develops that will interest the
committee I will immediately contact Mr. Robinson.
The Chairman. We would appreciate it.
Do you have a separate racket squad to get at these rackets which
is over tlie ward policemen, the ward chief, or is everything handled
by the ward chief ?
Mr. Prendergast. No. We have a detective bureau.
The Chairman. I mean, do they have city-wide jurisdiction?
Mr. Prendergast. Yes.
The Chairman. Suppose a ward policeman was accepting graft to
protect some gambling in his ward, would this detective bureau auto-
matically and systematically check what was going on in that ward
from time to time?
Mr. Prendergast. No. I have a special squad working out of my
office consisting of three men. They do my work for me.
The Chairman. Don't you think that you might have difficulty dis-
covering a situation in a particular ward unless you did have somebody
who made a general check over the city instead of just being concen-
trated in one particular ward?
Mr. Prendergast. If I had the manpower, I would love it.
The Chairman. It would be a good idea if you had it.
Mr. PRENDERtiAST. AVliat I sliould have in my department is 10 men,
trained investigators. That is what I should have, not policemen.
ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 147
The CiiAiRMAx. Just let them range the whole city.
Mr. Prexdergast. That is what I need.
The Chairman. As it is now, you are dependent upon the precinct
•captain, and if he goes bad, then you are in bad shape in that precinct ;
is that correct ?
]Mr. Prexdergast. That is correct.
The Chairmax. How about political interference with your work
in the police department ^
Mr. Prexdergast. Not in my work. I have only one boss.
The Chairmax. I mean, are there efforts by politicians of either
party or any party to interfere with your work?
]Mr. Prexdergast. I can answer that question by saying nobody in-
terferes with my work. I work for one man and work for one man
alone, and that is the mayor of the city of Chicago.
The Chairmax. How about trying to interfere? Do they try to
interfere with you?
]Mr. Prexdergast. Xo, no.
The Chairmax-^. Of course you are speaking for yourself. How
about your ward captains?
Mr. Prex-^dergast. I can't answer that.
The Chairmax-^. Do they report to you when there is an attempted
interference by politicians?
Mr. Prex'dergast. No, sir; none of them ever have. There never
lias been any report suomitted to me either verbally or otherwise.
The Chairmax. They are supposed to report to you if anything like
that happens?
Mr. Prexdergast. That is right, but they haven't reported.
The Chairman. Is there a standing order that they should report?
Mr. Prex'dergast. They haven't reported.
The Chairman. Somebody this morning indicated that up to about
31/^ years ago you could walk in plush gambling casinos right here in
the city, but that the situation has changed. \Vhat is the difference
now?
Mr. Prex'dergast. The situation has changed in this way, that today
they have opened what we call wdre rooms.
The Chairman'. You were the commissioner of i^olice 31^ or 4 3'ears
ago. How did that get by then ?
Mr. Prex'^dergast. No, not since I have been commissioner. Im-
mediately when I took over I started out to knock them over.
The Chairman. What has the situation changed to, you say?
Mr. Prendergast. AVhere the newsboy, cigar store, bartender in a
tavern will take a bet, and he has a telephone number and he calls up,
registers the bet or the wager. That is the reason for all these tele-
phones coming up. The mayor said this morning that in one place
over on the West Side we took out 30 telephones. I understand the
telephone company, directly associated with the telephone company,
removed many more. I reported to the telephone company. My men
have orders when they run into telephones or a wire room immediately
to call the telephone company. The telephone company sends a repre-
sentative out there and picks up the phones.
The Chairmax. If you make a charge, then they do remove the
phones ?
Mr. Prexdergast. Thev have been very cooperative.
148 ORGANIZED CRIME IN IN/TERSTATE COMMERCE
The Chairman. Have they been cooperative all aloiif^ or just here
recently ?
Mr, Prendergast. Oh, no, since I took over. I think we have taken
out over 2,000 phones in the last — 2,039 telephones were removed since
1947.
The Chairman. You said that some bill would help you with your
Avork if the Federal Government or Congi-ess passed it. Were you
referring to at least slowing down the use of the wire service in giving^
racing information ? Is that the bill you were referring to ?
Mr. Prendergast. I don't think a gambler can operate
The Chairman. Is that the bill you were referring to ?
Mr. Prendergast. Yes.
The Chairman. You think gamblers would have a harder time
operating ^
Mr. Prendergast. It would help for about 6 months of the year
when the local race tracks are closed. The minute the local race tracks
open, then I suppose we have another problem.
The Chairman. We would be glad if you would consider all these
recommendations that we are considering and give us any further
recommendations about them.
Mr. Prendergast. I have so told Mr. Robinson.
Mr. Halley. I have a few questions.
Do you know of any evidence or have you an opinion as to whether
the Capone group of gangsters or their successors are still operating
in any fashion in Chicago ?
Mr. Prendergast. I have no personal knowledge. I have nothing
in my reports to indicate that they are.
Mr. Halley. Do you believe that there is still such a thing as a
Capone syndicate ?
Mr. Prendergast. I would say that a certiiin element may be
operating in Chicago and the Chicago area.
Mr. Halley. Where would you think they would be operating,
in what field? Where would you advise this committee to look?
Mr. Prendergast. Whether it is a subterfuge or not I don't know,
but the so-called fellows who are named in tlie papers and don't
bear a good reputation have gone into many legitimate fields.
Mr. Halley. Are they in the w^ire service, the racing wire service?
Mr. Prendergast. I would think they were.
Mr. Halley. Were you police commissioner when Ragen was
murdered ?
Mr. Prendergast. Yes.
Mr. Halley. That murder was tied in with the war between the
Trans- American and Continental wire services, is that right?
Mr. Prendergast. I think it was ; yes.
Mr. Halley. Who were the people in Trans- American at that time ?
Did you ever find out?
Mr. Prendergast. I think 'I have something on it.
Mr. Halley. Were there any of the Capone mobstei-s in it?
Mr. Prendergast. I think I can get you some information on that.
I think I have some information.
Mr. Halley. That would be very important information. Would
you prefer to give us that information after you have checked your
files?
ORGANIZED CRIME' IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 149
Mr. Prendergast. I want you to know that anything that I have in
my files is open to you.
Mr. Hallet. All I mean is, I assume you don't have it at the tip
of your tongue and you want to wait until you find it.
The Chairman. We certainly would appreciate it if you would
give Mr. Robinson what you have.
Mr. Prexderoast. Certainly I will give it to Mr. Kobinson.
Mr. H alley. Commissioner, what otlier legitimate enterprises do
you think tlie Capone gang is in today ;'
Mr. Prexdergast. 1 undei-stand some are in the real estate business
and some are in the liening business. I understand some of them are
in the water business and others are in the towel business.
Mr. Halley. Have you a list or could you get us a list?
Mr. Prexdergast. I will get you anything you want.
Mr. Halley. I mean do you have that information?
Mr. Prexdergast. Anything I have. 'If I don't have it, I think I
am in a position to get vrhat you want.
The CiiAiRMAX'. Do you have a list of the names of people who are
alleged or believed to be in the towel business, in the water business
and so forth ?
Mr. Prexdergast. That list was published in the newspapers here
shortly after you opened up. and I immediately assigned it to my
chief of detectives to make a check on each and every one of them.
Mr. Halley. For instance. Humphreys is in the towel business and
Ralph Capone in the water business.
Mr. Prexdergast. Did you see that ^
Mr. RoBix'sox". Something was published.
Mr. Prex'dergast. I immediately checked that.
The Chairmax^. Will you have them furnish us for our record what
they have up to date ?
Mr. Prexdergast. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. Do you have any information at all. Commissioner,
about the ^Nlafia?
Mr. Prexder(;ast. No. Years ago, of course, I knew a little about
the Unione Siciliano. Was that it ?
Mr. Halley. We have had some testimony that in Chicago the
Unione Siciliano at least took some legitimate and open form as a
fraternal organization.
Mr. Prexi)er(jast. Years ago I worked at the Chicago Avenue dis-
trict. That is the district where Harrison is. In those days there was
quite an Italian — Sicilian, I will say, not Italian, because I know some
very fine Italians in this city. But there was a crowd of Sicilians over
around Oak and Cambridge and there were so many deaths over there
that it got to be known as death corner.
Mr. Halley. Was there such a thing as a IMafia or a Unione Siciliano
operating?
Mr. Prexdergast. They always referred to it as that. But of course
they were all sealed. In fact, one day we had a murder over there, a
boy was walking down Oak Street with his father at 12 o'clock noon,
and they shot the father down. The boy didn't see anything, the son.
I said to him, "That is your father. Please give us something on it."
He said nothing. He was walking down the street with his father.
The Chairmax^. When was that ?
150 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Pkendergast. Oh, that was around 1915 or 1918.
Mr. Halley. Do you have any files at all on it ?
Mr. Pkendergast. We had a squad here known as the Black Hand»
I suppose most of those fellows are dead now.
Mr. Halley. Are there any left who might give us some information
on the Black Hand operation?
Mr. Pkendergast. I will check. I think most of them are dead.
Mr. Halley. If there are any at all we would like to know about
them.
Mr. Pkendergast. I will check on it.
Mr. Halley. Thank you.
The Chairman. In that connection, Commissioner. DeLucia or
Ricca, whatever his name is, testified that not so very long ago — we
could give you the exact street — the Unione Siciliano, which he de-
scribed as being the fraternal insurance organization, and he paid
money into the organization and they got some kind of insurance
protection, which did have meetings on occasions, had an office on one
of the main streets here where people went and left their money just
as if they were operating an insurance company. Do you know any-
thing about that?
Mr. Prendergast. It may be operated, Unione Siciliano, under a
legitimate surroundings.
The Chairman. Do we have the record of the testimony of these
fellows taken in AVashington ?
Mr. Halley, Yes, we have.
The Chairman. Let's get that.
Commissioner, we would be' very grateful if you coidd have your
detective force check this place and see if it is still being operated.
Mr. Robinson. That would be in DeLucia's testimony.
Did you ever hear of the name of John Bolger or Bulger in con-
nection with the Unione Siciliano ?
Mr. Pkendergast. It seems to me I have. I heard it in some con-
nection.
Mr. Robinson. Do you loiow who he is ?
Mr. Pkendergast, I can find out.
Mr. Robinson. It is B-u-1-g-e-r.
Mr. Pkendergast. That is not his right name.
Mr. Kerner. It is Joseph Imburgio.
Mr. Prendergast. It wouldn't be Bulger.
Mr. Robinson. Do you know Phil D'Andrea ?
Mr. Prendergast. Just by reputation.
Mr. Robinson. Did you ever know his father?
Mr. Prendergast. No.
The Chairman. Commissioner, here is what Mr. DeLucia said
about it :
Did you ever hear of the Unione Siciliano?
Yes, but that has been changed to either the Italian-American Union —
Then he goes on to say that the Unione Siciliano was a society,
that when he was in it Joe Bulger was the president, Ferreta was the
secretary, and Cocia was something else; that he thinks the address
was 111 Washington Street. He said they had a number of lodges in
Chicago. He said it is still operating on Washington Street. Before
that they were on State Street.
ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 151
We would appreciate it if you can get any information on that.
Mr Prendergast. You want a check made on the Unione bicihano i
' The Chairman. Yes, sir. Or its name may be changed to this
Mr' Halley. My guess, Conmiissioner, would be that any files on
your old Black Hand squad would be the place where we might find
the most interesting information. n , i t
Mr. Prendergast. The old Black Hand squad was broken up. i
would say, maybe in 1923. ' « • , -o, i
Mr. Halley. That is all right. Any arrests, for instance, Black
Hand arrests, that you can show us, for instance a group of people
arrested in a batch for Black Hand, would provide names that I
think would be of great interest to the committee today.
Mr. Prendergast. All right.
Mr. Halley. Going back even to 1910.
Mr. Prendergast. You would have to go back to 1910.
Mr Halley. It proved verv helpful in Kansas City.
Mr Prendergast. I would say about 1917 or 1918 is when I was
assigned to that district over there. It was my thought I would love
to clean up a Black Hand case, but I was never successful. I think I
cleared up every other case on the books, but not a Black Hand case.
I came close to 'it several times.
Jklr. Robinson. I think we would be interested m whether or not
Phil b'Andrea's father appeared at that time to be involved m any
way. . , . . ,.
The Chairman. Any more questions now of the commissioner ?
Commissioner, we appreciate your willingness to get all of this in-
formation for us and your apeparance here. We will be in touch with
you from time to time. If there are any other matters that you think
of that will be of help to us, we will welcome your assistance and your
suggestions. .
]Mr. Prendergast. I want vou to know that any assistance i can give
you will be forthcoming. It won't be necessary to ask a second time.
Mr. Halley. I want to say for the record I understand from George
Robinson that the commissioner has been most helpful at all times.
]Mr. Robinson. We have received fine cooperation from him.
The Chairman. We appreciate your help to Mr. Robinson and this
committee. . , , ,
Mr. Robinson. I think as our investigation gets on we will probably
be seeing more and more of you. .
The Chairman. Thank you. Commissioner. We will be m touch
with you from time to time.
Mr.' Prendergast. Thank you, sir.
Tlie Chairman. All right, gentlemen. We have to move on here.
Mr. Boyle, my associates here say I am always rushing them. Mr.
Robinson?
FURTHER TESTIMONY OF JOHN S. BOYLE. STATE'S ATTORNEY,
COOK COUNTY, ILL.
Mr. Robinson. Mr. Bovle. I think probably it would be informative
if you would discuss briefly to the committee what the functions of
your office are and how it is organized. i . , -r i i
Mr. Boyle. We operate under the 1870 constitution which I told
you about before. The State's attorney of this county handles all
152 ORGANIZED CRIME' IN INTERSTATE COAIMERCE
criminal eases ,all misdemeanors. We also have a civil branch in which
we handle all tax cases in the county. That is, real-estate taxes and
personal proj^erty taxes. Under this consitution we represent every
elected county otlicial, the sheriiT. county commissioners, the county
treasurer, and I am the attorney for all these elected officials. In ad-
dition to that, of course we have the juvenile court where we have
assistant attorneys. We have 1121 South State Street Police Building
where we have seven assistants. We have the criminal building at
Twenty-sixth and California.
As I said before, this county has a poi)ulati(Mi of about 4,700.000
people. In order to give you a picture of the county, if you will for-
give me for just a moment, if you can visualize this table as being
the city of Chicago within the center of the county, outside in the
county, in what we call the country towns, live 1,000,000 people. We
have Villages of 70,000 population. Each one of those villages has
its own police department. They have their own village govern-
ments or citv governments. The city of Evanston has 70,000 ; Cicero
has 67,000. ^ The village I live in, Oak Park, has about 66,000 people.
Then we have Berwin with about 55,000 people. They are really
cities outside of Chicago within the county area. We prosecute all
cases within the corporate limits of the county. The county has 800
square miles. It is the largest county in the United States. I be-
lieve we have the biggest law office in the United States. We have
99 assistant State's attornej^s. 21 assigned to civil work, and those
civil cases involve cases sometimes as much as $1,000,000 or $2,000,000,
which go to the United States Supreme Court, We file claims in the
Federal court over here on receiverships and bankruptcies, and in-
volving the Chicago Transit Authority. We have had several cases
of that type.
Each year our grand jury returns 3,000 indictments on felonies
and a few misdemeanors M'hicli come from country towns. As I told
you, we have a oO-day grand jury. We have a law in this State,
under a case which I tried, People v. Umhle^ii, which holds that any
man charged with a crime must be tried within 4 months from the
date of arrest. If he is in jail, he doesn't have to make a demand
for trial, but if he is out on bond he must make a demand in writing
within that period of time. If you don't try him within 4 months
from the date of arrest, not the date of indictment but the date of
arrest, then he goes free. We haven't had anybody discharged under
that 4-month term. At the beginning of this court term we had 400
indictments pending, which is a little over a month's work. Our
conviction rate for the calendar year September 1949 to S?ptember
1950 was 92 percent. We got convictions in 92 percent of our cases.
That average holds true in the criminal counts.
Under the statute and under the law, the State's attorney of this
county is merely supposed to present evidence to a grand jury or he
is supposed to present cases to a court or to a jury.
Mr. Robinson. In other words, you do no investigative work until
a charge has been made.
Mr. Boyle. That is what the duty of the State's attorney is, but
we have gone beyond that. Approximately 40 percent of our crimes
arraigned before the chief justice of the criminal court are people who
have lived here less than 90 days. Chicago is the greatest railroad
center in the country, and the same trains which bring people in for
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 153
conventions and business meetings are the same trains that bring you.
When Jndae Harrington was our chief justice 3 years ago it ran 44
percent. He kept a complete record of that. They had been here
for less than 90 days. The police in Chicago don't know who they
are or their records until they make an arrest, of course. Then, of
course, we have 48 percent of our crime committed by colored people.
We have a tremendous colored population here.
Mr. Robinson. Does your office make any investigation on its own
initiative!'
Mr. Boyle. Yes; we do at times.
Mr. KoBiNSON. Is that infrequent?
Mr. Boyle. We liave assigned to our office about 76 police officers
of the city of Cliicago to do investigative work. Of course when we
(ret a case we must investigate it in order to get all the witnesses avail-
able for the trial.
Mr. E.0BINS0N. How many officers in the police department?
Mr. BoY-LE. Seventy-six.
Mr. Robinson. Under whom do they operate ?
Mr. BoYLE. They operate under Captain Gilbert, who is our chief
investigator.
^Ir. Robinson. He is under your direction ?
Mr. Boyle. Under my direction; yes.
Mr. Robinson. He doesn't come under the direction of the com-
missioner?
Mr. Boyle. No ; he does not. He is loaned to the State's attorney s
office and his salarv is set up in the county budget. His pay as a
police captain is turned back to the city of Chicago. He gets paid
by the county.
Mr. Robinson. That is appointive office?
Mr. Boyle. That is an appointive office ; yes.
Mr. Robinson. By the mayor ?
Mr. Boyle. No ; by the State's attorney.
Mr. Robinson. How does your office operate vis-a-vis the attorney
general's office?
Mr. Boyle. The attorney general's office handles all appeals with
our office. In other words, all appeals of criminal cases where we.
get a conviction, the attorney general joins in with us, and those cases
go directly to our supreme' court. Our police department handles
that. ^ ^ ... ,
:Mr. Robinson. Can the attorney general suspend the activities of a
State's attorney so far as any particular investigation is concerned
and operate on his own ?
Mr. Boyle. I suppose he has that power. He never has that I know
of, not here at least.
Mr. Robinson. Do you know whether he has in other areas where
there are State's attorneys ^
Mr. Boyle. He has not.
Mr. Robinson. In other words, he has no supervisory power over
you ?
Mr. Boyle. No; none at all. We take it upon ourselves to send
police out when there are an;^ labor troubles of any kind. I think we
liave the best labor relations in the country in this area. We recently
68958— 51— pt. 5 11
154 ORGANIZED CRIMD IN INiTERSTATE COMMERCE
had a case where some fellows from the United Eleccrical Workers
started a riot and beat up some men. We indicted and tried them
and convicted them.
In addition to the duties of tryin^r these criminal cases which come
into our office, we started November 1, lO-tO, on our own, to go out
and make raids on places that had slot machines. Since November of
1949 we have confiscated and destroyed 564 slot machines.
Mr. Halley. Would that be a duty that you would take on because
other law enforcement agencies failed to do it ?
Mr. Boyle. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Wliat agencies would have the first responsibility ?
Mr. Boyle. The sheriff of Cook County is supposed to do that. It
wasn't being done and we knew there were slot machines out in the
county, so we sent our men out night after night and made these raids
and confiscated 564 slot machines. In those cases every time we made a
raid the man was fined $100, and the slot machine was confiscated. We
felt a syndicate was operating with these slot machines, at a cost to them
of about $350,000 or $400,000 during that period of time.
Mr. Robinson. Did you find in the course of those raids that the per-
son from whom the slot machine was confiscated was the OAvner of the
machine ?
Mr. Boyle. In many instances we found that was not true. They
at least said they didn't own them and they were forced upon them.
They won't tell us who brought them in or who serviced them. They
walk into court and take their $100 fine and plea of guilty. They plead
guilty.
The Chairman. Is that the maximum fine ?
Mr. Boyle. That is the maxinunn fine on first offense. On the
second offense you can fine them up to $500.
Mr. Robinson. Is mere possession of the machine illegal ?
Mr. Boyle. Yes. In our opinion, it is ; yes.
Mr. Halley. Mr. Boyle, after the man has taken liis conviction and
his fine, and therefore is no longer in jeopardy, would it be legally pos-
sible to take him before a grand jury and just make him tell who put
the machine in ?
Mr. Boyle. Then he would refuse to testify on the ground he would
incriminate himself.
Mr. Halley. How could he after he had paid the fine ?
Mr. Boyle. I think maybe we should do that.
Mr. Robinson. Would you furnish us with the names of all these
men from whom machines were confiiscated and who would not tell
where they got them?
Mr. Boyle. Oh, yes. We have their names and the places.
The Chairman. Give us 8 or 10 of the most notorious ones, maybe
second offenders or what not.
Mr. Boyle. I will give you that list.
The Chairman. We would like the entire list of course.
Mr. Boyle. We will give you the entire list. We will furnish you
with the entire list.
Mr. Boyle. In addition to that where gambling was operating in
country towns and we would warn them over a period of time to
cease gambling, we would also send a letter to the sheriff of Cook
County that gambling was operating, and if it didn't stop we indicted
ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE OOMMEBCE 155
the chief of police. We indicted the chief of police of Calumet City.
He was tried by a jury in the criminal court. To give you an idea how
jurors react sometimes, he admitted that gambling wiis going was
going on in the city. He said he had a small police force and he had
to police the school crossings. Because of the taverns — I think there
were 200 in a village of 20,000 people, which paid a license fee of $4:00
apiece — because of this income he said they had the lowest tax rate
in our county. The people wanted that sort of thing out there and
the jury found him not guilty.
Mr. Robinson. When was that ?
Mr. Boyle. I can get you the exact date. I dont have it.
Mr. Robinson. xVpproximately.
Mr. Boyle. Several months ago. We also tried the chief of po-
lice
Mr. Robinson. What was his name?
Mr. Boyle. I don't know whether I have it or not. It is a long-
Polish name. I think I have it here. Just a minute. I will get that
in just a second. We also tried the chief of police of Melrose Park
and indicted him. His name was Wigglesorth. That is where this
famous Lumber Gardens was supposed to be operating, owned by the
DeGrazia brothers. After several warnings he was indicated and
tried in criminal court and he was found not guilty. AVe moved heaven:
and earth to get conviction in both of these cases. In Cicero we had
the chief of police of Cicero before the grand jury, named Martin
Wojiahowski. The grand jury told them they were given 10 days
in which to clean up Cicero and in the meantime he resigned and
another police chief took his place, Christopher Rooney, who is a very
good police officer, according to reports. He had been to the FBI
school. He was veiy good, according to reports.
On labor relations out at Cicero, where they had several uprisings,
he handled it very well. We sent for him because he didn't suppress
gambling in Cicero, and he resigned. We now have a third chief of
police in the village of Cicero.
We apprise every chief of police of countr}' towns as to where gam-
bling places are located. My fellows go out, these investigators, and
check, and find gambling. It is easy to find it. What they do is ride
around and see a bunch of cars parked in front of some tavern in
the afternoon. So they pull in and that is where it is. That is where
they are getting bets. It is that simple.
Mr. Robinson. Isn't it true, Mr. Boyle, that most of the slot ma-
chines are manufactured in Chicago ?
Mr, Boyle. That is true ; yes.
Mr. Robinson, Do you find in the course of j'our raids any bills of
sale from these manufacturers to the place where you raid ?
]\Ir, Boyle. No.
Mr. Robinson. Is it your opinion that these are contraband
machines ?
Mr. Boyle. They are contraband ; jes.
Mr, Robinson. In other words, are they brought from some plac^
outside the State?
Mr. Boyle, Oh, I don't know about that; no. There is Mills
Novelty. Most of them are Mills. Mr. Halley looked at some of them.
We had some Jennings. Then we have these great big consoles. They
156 ORGATS'IZED CRIMEi IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE
are probably Avorth a thousand dollars apiece. We have any number
of those.
Mr. Halley. Before we pass the slot machines, would you very
briefly, because it is a very involved matter, tell the committee about
the problem you had in getting testimony from the members of the
Tam OVShanter Golf (^lub?
Mr, Boyle. Tam O'Shanter Country Club was su])posed to be a
{)rivate club operated by a maiTi by the name of George S. May. We
lad rumors that there were slot machines there and there was
gambling. So on July 4 we made a raid, and we arrested May and
we got 27 slot machines in that place. Then the grand jury sent
for the books and records. They refused to bring the books and
records. They defied the grand jury. Judge Miner held a fellow by
the name of Ryan in contempt of court. He admitted he had the
books, but he wouldn't bring them in. He lield him in contempt of
court and sentenced him to 6 months in jail. In addition to that,
he held in abeyance and continued the other cases until next February,
with the understanding that whatever outcome this case had in our
supreme court he would decide the other cases. Some of those other
men were businessmen of high caliber and high standing in the com-
munity. They were officers of this club. We know that May owns
the golf grounds, the grounds on which the club is located. That is
one corporation. Another corporation operates the golf club. They
pay him $75,000 a year for the use of the grounds. He is supposed to
have amassed a fortune. During the course of our investigation we
also discovered that many years ago he was convicted and sent to the
penitentiary for embezzlement. He is supposed to be an industrial
engineer and to have a Nation-wide business and to be a very re-
spectable member of the community.
Mr. Halley. Is that the May Col ?
Mr. Boyle. George S. May."
Mr. Halley. Is that the George S. May that was convicted?
Mr. Boyle. Many years ago.
Mr. Halley. He was convicted in the Tam O'Shanter case ?
Mr. Boyle. No, no. He is in the Tam O'Shanter case.
The Chairman. He was convicted of embezzlement some years ago.
Mr. Boyle. Some years ago ; yes. It is something nobody knows
anything about.
Mr. Halley. Was there any evidence that, while slot machines were
not available to the operators of other clubs, the Tam O'Shanter Club
was apparently being able to get and keep its slot machines?
]Mr. Boyle. There are a lot of clubs around Chicago, privately
owned golf clubs, wdio own their own slot machines, or did. We felt
there was no connection with any syndicate or anything of that kind.
They owned the slot machines and they had them in their clubs for
their use of their members. I sent letters to all of the clubs and told
them it was illegal to have a slot machine and to take them down,
^riiat was after there were some hold-ups. Several of them were held
up. The pressure was on them so bad when we were taking all these
hundreds of machines that they had to get them someplace. So they
went out and held up these clubs and took the machines away from
them. We tried to trace numbers, but the numbers of all of them had
Leen cMaeled off. We keep a record in J. P. courts of the iiumbers of
ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 157
all slot machines confiscated by the sheriff as well as our office. He
hasn't had many since November, since we started to do this work
I don't know of any that he has had. The numbers have been chipped
off of everv one of the slot machines.
]SIr. RoBixsoN. Do you have any suspicious as to who was concluct-
ing those hokl-ups ^ . ,
Mr Boyle. No; we haven't. We have worked on it for months.
There are certain license numbers that we have traced and they are
faulty license numbers. _
Mi\ Robinson. Have you any indication at all, however tlimsy, tliat
Vogel was in back of it %
]\[r. Boyle. Who^
Mr. RoBiNSOx. Vogel. t ^ p
Mr B')YLF It is mv humble opinion that some syndicate of some
sort was in back of it'because they wouldn't touch the persons in the
place They wouldn't touch their money or their pocket books, i liey
would say, Ve are not bothering vou. We want those slot machines
and that is all we want. That is all they took. I guess the theory was
that that wasn't robbery.
Mx. Robinson. These were the clubs that were owners and opera-
tors of the machines? T 1 1 AT
I^lr. Boyle. Where a group of board of directors ran the club. Wo
individual ran it.
JSIr. Robinson. The club owned the machines.
Mr Boyle. Tbev owned the machines ; that is right.
^Ir. Robinson, that is not the usual practice here ; is it, where they
own the machines \
Mr. Boyle. Yes, private clubs.
Mr. Robinson. I was under the impression that the usual practice
w^as that outside people took a certain percentage of the operations.
Mr Boyle. Nothing like that at all. Wlien they startecl to move
in to take the percentage and also started to take slot machines, then
we knocked them down all over the county. All clubs went down.
Mr. Robinson. Wasn't it true in the Tarn O'Shanter case
Mr. Boyle. They didn't go down.
Mr Robinson, that outside people were taking a percentage {
Mr Boyle. Yes ; it is our opinion that a syndicate or an outht was
operatino- through Tam O'Shanter Country Club. This fellow Ryan
is suijposed to be Vogel's fellow. That is why he couldn t bring m the
books and records. He had to take a 6 months' sentence instead. He
was there to protect the moneys that came in through the slot machines
in the Tam O'Shanter Club. ^ ^-i n
Mr Robinson. Have you ever found anything to support the allega-
tion that an effort was being made to force the sale of that club to
^^Mr^^BoYLE. No. I heard those stories. They started afterward.
There were a lot of stories that started afterward, but that is not tTue.
Mr. Robinson. Have you had any indication that machines have
been run in from outside the State ?
INIv. Boyle. No. j? , i m
J^Ir. Robinson. Mr. Boyle, do you have any knowledge of the irans-
Aiiipricnn CyO. .
Mr. Boyle." You mean did I ever represent them ? Is that what
you mean?
158 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. EoBiNsoN. Either represent them or
Mr. RoYLE. Do you mean you want me to answer questions about
vvliat I did in the private practice of law before I became State's attor-
ney on December 6, 1948 ?
Mr. Robinson. If you care to give any information.
Mr. Boyle. Sure, I will tell you. I sent for those records today.
From October 8, 1946, to June 9, 1947, 1 represented the Trans- Ameri-
can Co. on civil matters only ; that is, corporation records in Delaware,
corporation records that they had to make returns on in Sprino-field'
111., and also the drawing of some contracts that they had. The only
]-)erson I talked to as I recall it was a young fellow by the name of
Burns.
Mr. Robinson. Is that an Andrew Burns?
Mr.^ Boyle. I think that is his name. I haven't cot my file. I
haven't been able to get it. I went out of the law business a month
before I took office. I have had no law practice of any kind since.
The Chairman. When did you take office ?
Mr. Boyle. December 6, 1948.
Mr. Robinson. Did you ever at any time have the records of that
company ?
Mr. Boyle. No ; I never did.
Mr. Robinson. Do you know who had custody of the records ?
Mr. Boyle. I imagine their auditor or their office. I never went to
their office. The only time they ever wanted anything they came to
my office. This fellow Burns would come to my office and bring papers
over, the necessary papers to fill out.
Mr. Robinson. Did you ever have any discussions with O'Hara ?
Mr. Boyle. I talked to O'Hara ; yes.
Mr. Robinson. The secretary of the company.
Mr. Boyle. Yes.
Mr. Robinson. You don't know whether he still has the records or
not?
Mr. Boyle. I don't know anything about them. They went out of
business and I never heard any more, never saw them since that day.
Mr. Robinson. Did you have anything to do with the dissolution
of the company ?
Mr. Boyle. No ; I did not. I think I was through as their lawyer
before that ever happened.
The Chairman. Tell us anything about it. We are very, very much
interested in that and anything that you can tell us about the company.
Mr. Boyle. I will. First of all, there was a contract drawn which
said if they did business with any person or persons or any corpora-
tion that was illegal or broke the laws of any State, any county, or any
citl, they would immediately cancel the contract. It is my under-
standing of this company that they did business with certain publi-
cations, who in turn sold to other persons, ostensibly bookmakers, but
the company itself never sold to any bookmakers that I know of. I
have sme records here, just a minute.
Mr. Halley. Can we get to the nub of the matter ?
Mr. Boyle. I can get the file and bring it in. I haven't much on it.
Mr. Halley. Here is the thing
Mr. Boyle. That is the only person or persons that I ever repre-
sented in my life that had any connection with anything illegal or
any connection with any of these so-called syndicates or persons.
ORGANIZED CRIM& IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 159
Mr. Halley. Mr. Boyle, in dealing with Burns, either Andrew or
Pof Bnrns
Mr. Boyle. I never met Pat Burns in my life.
Mr. Halley. You never met Pat ? . , • t i
Mr Boyle I met Andrew Burns, and he showed me his discharge
from'the Marine Corps. He said, "They are saying a lot of things
about me Here is my honorable discharge from the Marine Corps.
Mr. Halley. You know, of course, the, shall we say rumor, about
Trans-American.
Mr. Boyle. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Did you learn anything in the course ot your repre-
sentation which would help this committee
Mr. Boyle. If I did, I would tell you.
Mr. Halley. In separating the rumor from the truth, as to who
actually owned Trans-American and what transpired behind the
scenes
Mr. Boyle. I M'ill bring in niA^ file.
Mr. Halley, I didn't know who owned Trans-American, frankly.
I only knew the names of the officers who were listed.
Mi'. Halley. Did you have reason to believe, which a lawyer might
well have and properly have, that there were other people m interest
whose name were no divulged to you.
Mr. Boyle. They never talked to me about it. I never talked to
them. They never came to my office.
Mr. Halley. Did Andrew Burns act like the fellow who owned
the show 'I
Mr. Boyle. Yes; he did. I will be very frank with you. He was
aboveboard about it. He said he worked— I think he told me he
worked for some other racing service.
Mr. Halley. Continental, Ragen's crowd ?
Mr. Boyle. Yes. He later went out in the business for himself and
this was his business and he was handling it. I asked him about any
hoodlums or any members of the syndicate involved, and he said there
wasn't any. That is what he told me at that time and there was no
reason why he should lie to me.
Mr. Halley. Did you represent them at the time Ragen was killed?
Mr. Boyle. No ; I did not.
Mr. Halley. Did you represent them after or before ?
Mr. Boyle. Yes; starting on October 8. I understand Ragen was
killed in August of 1948.
Mr. Halley. Wasn't there considerable investigation by the police
department of Trans-American growing out of the Ragen killing?
Mr. Boyle. They never came to me about it.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever see
Mr. Boyle. I didn't represent them on any case in which the police
were involved. I did not represent them in any courtroom proceeding
of any kind. It was merely the making out of these various papers
that were necessary, the same as I would with any other corporation.
At that time I represented 175 corporations.
Mr. Halley. What I have in mind, Mr. Boyle, is whether some-
where some of the things that at that time might have seemed insignifi-
cant to you, in the light of what you now know, might acquire signifi-
cance and that you might by searching your memory think of some of
these facts that would help this committee.
160 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Boyle. I would be glad to.
Mr. Hallky. Have you ever seen the statement Ragen made to the
police department here about 2 weeks before he was murdered I
Mr. Boyle. I have a statement found in the vault the othei- day. It
is on my desk and I think that is the statement but I l)aven"t seen it.
I haven't read it. I was not in the State attorney's office at that time.
I was in the private practice of law.
Mr. Halley. You see, in that statement Ragen told the police
department he expected to be murdered as a result of transactions
growing out of rivalry between Trans-American and Continental. In
fact, his position was that an effort had been made to purchase Con-
tinental from him, and that he was going to be killed because he
resisted them. He named certain members of the Capone syndicate,
I believe, the Fischettis, Accardo, and Guzik, as people who had
approached him.
Mr. Boyle. I never met those men. I never met Accardo, Guzik,
or, who else, Fischetti. I never met them in my life.
Mr. Halley. Of course this committee's problem is to ascertain
whether or not those people were active behind the scenes in the
Trans- American picture.
Mr. Boyle. They never appeared in my office, never talked to me
on the telephone. I never had anything to do with them.
Mr. Halley. There is nothing you know that would help us in
any way ?
Mr. Boyle. Unless they were trying to conceal from me the fact
that they were interested. I don't know why they would.
Mr. Halley. It may be that you just wouldn't have represented
them if they did.
Mr. Boyle. I probably w^ould not.
Mr. Halley. For instance, you didn't know the connection Trans-
American with the murder investigation of Ragen, I presume?
Mr. Boyle. I read it in the paper; yes. A man comes into my
office to have me represent him on civil matters. I am in the private
practice of law and I represented him for a period of about 9
months. The total fees I received for representing them over that
period of time w^as $2,500. In that year I have a record of what I
made. I think I made about forty thousand-some-odd dollars in my
law business. By the time I got through paying my tax on this I
probably made about 5 or 6 hundred dollars. It was just another
corporation so far as I was concerned.
Mr. Robinson. What w'as the date ?
Mr. Boyle. According to my records, which I sent for this noon —
a couple of fellow^s asked me about it out there, and I said I would
get my records — October 8, 1946.
Mr. Robinson. Did that go back to 1945 ?
Mr. Boyle. No, no. 1946. Someone else had represented them.
I understand some big law firm in New York represented them in
New York.
Mr. Robinson. Did you help them incorporate ?
Mr. Boyle. No; I did not. This was after they were incorporated.
June 9, 1947, is the last time I ever saw any of these fellows or
had anything to do with tliem.
Mr. Halley. Do you have your file here ?
ORGANIZED CRIME: IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 161
Mr. Boyle. No; I have not. My files are at my house and I will
get my files for the committeee ; yes, sir.
Mr. KoBiNSON. Yon never saw their records at all?
Mr. Boyle. No ; I did not.
Mr. Robinson. You didn't know whether they kept any records?
Mr. Boyle. I assumed that they did. I didn't see them. I never
filed any income-tax returns for them or anything at all. I under-
stood they had an auditor who did that. As a matter of fact, I never
appeared in court for them.
Mr. Robinson. Do you know who their auditor was?
Mr. Boyle. No; but my record might show it. I suppose he wrote
letters giving me a breakdown for the filing of the papers in Delaware.
It was a Delaware corporation.
]\Ir. Robinson. That is right.
Mr. Boyle. Yes. Every so often under those rules of the Delaware
law you must file certain statements as to each corporation, and that
was done. Also the secretary of state of Illinois insists that you file
for a foreign corporation, which this was.
Mr. Robinson. Do you know whether :Mr. Bernstein represented
them ?
Mr. Boyle. Bernstein ?
Mr. Robinson. In any capacity.
Mr. Boyle. No; not at that time. If he did, he never told me
about it.
Mr. Robinson. Do you recall the name of Mr. Samelson?
Mr. Boyle. No. But I will check and let you know. The name
meant nothing to me if it wasn't in a letter. I didn't talk to any man
by that name in my life.
Mr. Halley. Do you know where we could find Burns ?
Mr. Boyle. No; I don't. I have never seen him since the last day
I came down. I have never seen him since. I probably wouldn't even
know him if I saw him.
Mr. Halley. What sort of services did they need at that time?
Mr. Boyle. Assistance in filing corporation papers, drawing of
contracts. I will have to get the file. As I say, I had other business
at that time. In fact, I had a pretty fair law practice, and probably
should have stayed in it. So far as the committee is concerned, let me
say that since I'have been State's attorney for the county I sold a six-
fiat building that I had a half interest in, and I got $11,000 for it.
There was no mortgage. In addition to that I had an interest in a
subdivision that I acquired before I became State's attorney and I
sold my interest in that, and after paying the loan to the bank I got
about $8,000. That in addition to my salary has been spent, and, if
the committee is interested, they can have any books or records I have.
You can have my check book. You can have the key to my safety de-
posit box and I will give you a note to go and look in it. That is the
way I feel about this affair. I never took a nickel in my life. I want
to "make this statement under oath. I have never taken a nickel in
my life. I never allowed these fellows to contribute to my campaign.
I didn't take any campaign contributions from any persons that I
thought had any touch or any connection with any syndicate of any
kind or any gamblers or any lawbreakers. Of course, at that^ time
maybe it was because I was a five-to-one shot and they weren't too
interested. The Friday before election a couple of those lawyers called
162 ORGANIZED CRIMD I:N' INTERSTATE COMOVIERCE
me up and ^Yanted to see me and I said ''No,'' I didn't wish to see them.
That was Brodkin and Bieber, wlio represent these fellows. I said
I wasn't interested and didn't want to see them, that I would rather
be defeated than to have help from certain types of peo])le. I am just
sayinir that because this thing- may be distorted. Frankly, it was
just another law suit, another corporation.
jNIr. Robinson. My. Boyle, this is a question I believe I asked the
mayor. Do you think that a person can do a very proper and good
investigatiA-e job so far as suppressing gambling who engages in
gambling himself?
Mr. BoYLE. How do you mean that ? If he goes to the track and
makes a bet or if he bets on a handbook ?
Mr. Robinson. Let's take either one.
]Mr. BoTLE. Do you want my personal opinion?
Mr. Robinson. Yes.
Mr. Boyle. No ; he cannot. As State's attorney, I will not go to a
race track and I will not make bets on a handbook, and I have never bet
on a horse since I have been State's attorney. I will be very frank
with you.
Mr. Robinson. Do you think that anyone who is in investigative
work, whether connected with the police department or with your
office, could do a good job if he was engaging in gambling or wagering
himself ?
Mr. Boyle. You mean wagering on horses ?
]Mr. Robinson. Yes.
Mr. Boyle. He would be suspect, yes, because frankly of these 76
policemen that I have in my office, about 65 of them are young GI's
who came out of the last war. Most of them have had training in the
Army, and they are doing a pretty good job. If you don't think it is
tough to cret out and get these slot machines without having these
fellows ofler by means of bribes, believe me it is tough, because they
know every time 3'OU take a slot machine it is going to cost them about
$500 including the loss of the slot machines. I know I have honest
men who go out on these jobs or I never would have gotten this many
machines. I trust them and I know that they are honest and capable.
These are policemen I am talking about. (Df course we have other
investigators at work with them who go along with them.
Mr. Robinson. Has this group of policemen who are assigned to
your office been equally as energetic in suppressing the bookmaking
establishments?
Mr. Boyle. They have not been, no, because I didn't feel that that
was my job. I moved over the line on the slot machines and have
taken that upon myself. I write letters to the sheriff on handbooks.
Wherever my fellows see a handbook operating, they make a report.
I have men working in the county. They work every afternoon. No
one knows who the}' are, but they send me written reports of hand-
books operating. 1 have sent thousands of letters to the sheriff of
Cock County telling him about these handbooks operating. I have
sent letters to every chief of police. If they don't do anything about it
and they are still running, we indict the chief of police. The sheriff
at least sends the report back.
Mr. Robinson. Is it your feeling that nothing has been done about
it?
ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMEUCE 163
Mr. Boyle. Insofar as the sheriff is concerned ?
Mr. Robinson. Yes.
Mr. Boyle. I am afraid that is true. He has done some things;
yes.
Mr. Robinson. Is there any explanation in vour mind as to why he
hasn't?
Mr. Boyle. It could be only a suspicion and I don't want to give you
that.
The Chaieman. You mean, Mr. Boyle, that handbooks are operating
out in the county promiscuously?
Mr. Boyle. Xot any more. We put that Lumber Gardens out of
business. Wherever we put pressure on. like in Cicero, they close
down. They move around. If I start policing the county and start
policing the city of Chicago, I wont be able to try the criminal cases
that I have pending in the State's attorney's office, those that come in
day after day. We have about 280 murder cases. I think we tried
188 murder cases last year, and they are important cases to this com-
munity. We have sex cases, we have vicious rape cases, burglaries,
and robberies, and other types of cases.
The Chairman. Mr. Boyle. I want to ask you just one or two ques-
tions. There has been some talk in the paper about Mr. Gilbert.
What is he?
Mr. Boyle. Chief investigator of the State's attorney's office.
The Chairman. Did you appoint him ?
Mr. Boyle. Yes ; I did.
The Chairman. There has been some criticism of him having so
much money or something. I have an open mind on the matter. I
don't Imow about it one way or the other.
Mr. Boyle. He appeared before the Chicago Crime Connnission
and offered to bring in his income-tax returns for 10 years and show
them where he got his money. He admits he has some money and says
that he made it through some public service company of northern In-
diana. I am not sure of all the facts connected with it. He is also
a great friend of Dan Rice, the grain broker. He has made money
with him. He used to live at the Blackstone Hotel.
The Chairman. What is your opinion about Mr. Gilbert ?
Mr. Boyle. I think he is one of the finest policemen I have ever
known in my life.
The Chairman. Do you have any reason to doubt his integrity or
honesty ?
Mr. Boyle. Not since I have been State's attorney. That is what
3^ou want to know.
The Chairman. Yes. sir.
Mr. Boyle. I told him to go out and get these slot machines and he
hasn't fumbled once. There haven't been any tip-offs, and that is im-
portant on these gambling raids.
The Chairman. You said you didn't have any question to doubt
him since you had been State's attorney.
Mr. Boyle. That is all I can go by.
The Chairman. You had no contact with him prior to that?
Mr. Boyle. Yes: I did as assistant State's attorney. I was there
from 1033 to 1939 as assistant State's attorney for Cook County and
I tried a lot of murder cases. He is a verv efficient man.
164 ORGANIZED CRIME: IN INiTERSTATE COMMERCE
The Chairman. Did you have any reason to question him prior to
tlie time you became State's attorney ?
Mr. Boyle. No. First of all, let's understand each other. He is
probably the most efficient police officer and one of the hardest- working
police officers I have ever known. When he gets on a case he works
day and night. He works on nearly every murder case we have in the
office. He works all night and never stops. He is a terrific worker.
He has cracked several cases for us which were supposed to be impos-
sible in these country towns. In one case where two police officers were
shot and one was killed, he went out ihere and took over and solved
the case and a man was sentenced to death.
The Chairman. I have seen it charged — I don't know whether in
the paper or in one of these articles that have been written — that since
Mr. Gilbert has been in there, there had been no charge made against
any of these racketeers like the Fischettis and what not ; that none of
them had been brought in.
Mr. Boyle. Not by our office.
The Chairman. I mean is there any explanation ?
Mr. Boyle. I assume the police department of Chicago would make
an arrest first of all.
The Chairman. You mean you don't operate in the city at all ?
Mr. Boyle. No ; I do not because I have confidence in the mayor of
Chicago. I have confidence in somebody along the line.
The Chairman. I just wanted to see the jurisdiction. Your people
police all these towns and suburbs out in the county outside the city.
Mr. Boyle. We do police them.
The Chairman. It would be your opinion, then, that it would be just
because they weren't operating in the county outside the city if none
of them had been arrested.
Mr. Boyle. That is right. They haven't committed any crimes that
have come to our knowledge. If they had, of course, we would arrest
them and have writs sworn out and have them released afterward.
The Chairman. Mr, Boyle, how much does your position pay you ?
Mr. Boyle. $15,000 a year.
The Chairman. You are elected for how long a term ?
Mr. Boyle. Four years. One thousand two hundred dollars of that
is paid by the State of Illinois. Every State's attorney in Illinois gets
$1,200 from the State.
The Chairman. That is a 4-year term.
Mr. Boyle. Yes. Then I get $13,800 a year from the county of
Cook. Of course, they take deductions before they give me my check.
The Chair^ian. When you ran, did you run with the blessing of the
organization here or did you buck them ?
Mr. Boyle. No, I ran with their blessing for the first time in my
life.
The Chairman. We were talking some time back that you had run
two or three times, something once before. What was that?
Mr. Boyle. Well, that goes away back. In 1028 I ran for State
representative as an indejiendent and I was defeated. In 1939 I ran for
alderman of the sixteenth w^ard in Chicago against the organization.
The regular organization man was ward committeeman and Demo-
cratic alderman, had been there for 21 years, and I defeated him. In
1940 I ran against him for committeeman and I was defeated by about
600 votes out of 26,000. In 1942 I handled Paul Douglas' campaign
ORGANIZED CRIME. IN INTERSTATE COiVIMEECE 165
as an independent candidate for the United States Senate. I was still
in the city council at that time. After 1U43 1 dropped completely out
of politics and went into the practice of the law and stayed there until
out of a clear sky they asked me to run for State's attorney ot Cook
County. I say I was surprised and that is the truth.
The Chaikmax. In the private practice were you with a firm?
Mr. BoTLE. No, I was by myself. I had other lawyers working for
me. I had a list of my earnings here for those years. I ran over $40,000
each year prior to mV taking^the othce of State's attorney.
The CiiAraMAN. During tliose last few days in your race for State's
attorney there were some people who called you representing these
gang elements ^
Mr. Boyle. I assume they represented them because they do repre-
sent them in court and have for many years.
The Chau^man. They called you on the telephone ?
Mr. Boyle. Yes, and wanted to come over to see me and I said I didn't
want to see them.
The Chairman. Did you know what they wanted to see you about ^
]\lr. Boyle. They wanted to make a donation to my campaign. I
said "No," I wasn't interested.
The Chairman. Did you state their names?
Mr. Boyle. Lawyers by the name of Brodkin & Bieber.
The Chairman. "Who did they represent?
Mr. Boyle. They represented for sometime the so-called syndicate
fellows in the courts and gambling cases.
The Chairman. You mean Capone and (luzik and Fischettis and
that outfit ?
Mr. Boyle. That is right.
The Chairman. I know we all get a lot of anonymous letters. I got
one here and I don't know what to do with it. I thought I would read
it for the record and turn it over to you or somebody if it would be of
any help to you. I think it came in this envelope, October 2, which is
here.
Jack (Jake) Guzik and Charles Fischetti ordered Lt. Bill Drury killed. Giizik
sent word to his North Side triggermen Dominic Nnccio and two other Dominies
(called the three Doms) and Nuccio supplied three shotguns and .45 caliber pistol
for job. After killing, killers returned to Nuccio's saloon and hid guns. Every-
one knows the Doms' last names. Now go and get them lined up for electric
chair. They have good, crooked lawyers known as BB boys.
That has been handled around here. .1 don't know whether there
are any fingerprints on it or not.
I wanted to ask you about the Drury murders. I don't suppose
there is anything we can do, but if you have any suggestions about
anything that we can do to help we would be very glad to have it.
Mr. Boyle. We have been working on the thing, as you probably
know. I talked to Ricca, Campagna, and Gioe and we did get some
answers from them because they had to answer us. Of course, they
have airtight alibis for the night of the killing.
Mr. Kerxer. I think the committee should probably know that I
wrote a letter to Mr. Boyle
Mr. BoYLE. Yes.
Mr. Kerner. Informing him if he did find anything in the nature
of a Federal violation in either of these two killings, if he would in-
form our office we would try to get the officers of the Federal Govern-
166 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IX IX^TERSTATE COMIIVEERCE
ment in the matter to assist in findincr tlie killers. That was with the
wish of the Attorney General of the United States.
The Chairman. I might say that I called and then sent a telegram
and a letter to the Attorney General also. I got a letter back from
Howard McGrath that if we found any connection at all, they would
be glad to have our report and would take the matter up for appropri-
ate action. fLL
Mr. Halley. Mr. Boyle, did you take a statement from an accoimt-
ant named Brantman ?
Mr. Boyle. I did.
Mr. Halley. Did that relate to a certain alleged activity of an
attorney representing Drury^
Mr. Boyle. That is right. Do you want me to tell you about it?
Mr. Halley. What was his name first.
Mr. Boyle. His name was Louis Kutner.
Mr Halley. Will you tell the committee about the statement you
took from Brantman?
Mr. BoYM. Do you want to tell me fii-st of all that I got some in-
formation that Kutner knew something about Drury's case« He
was Drury's and Connelly's lawyer. So I called him up and told
him I wanted to talk to him. I said I want to talk to you. He came
out to my office and told me a story that he represented a fellow by the
naine of Russell and that Russell later denied that he represented him.
So 1 asked him if Mr. Drui-y was working with him on the Russell
matter and he said no, he was not. He told about having contacted
Mr. Halley and he was supposed to surrender to Mr. Halley and he
got a subpena from you. I asked him how he came to represent Rus-
sell, and it was rather a vague story. He finally gave me the name of
Brantman, an auditor. I got hold of Brantman and had him come
out to my office and I took a statement from Brantman. Brantman's
story was that he represented Russell as an accountant. He also rep-
resented Ralph Capone. The other day I asked Ricca and Campagna
it they knew him, and Campagna said he did some work for him and
also did some work for Gioe. I asked Gioe., and he admitted some
years ago he did some income-tax work for him. Brantman said that
Kutner called him and told him he could lielp his client, Russell
Mr. Halley. Would you give the full details ?
. ^'^y- ^OYLE- Then Brantman said he would like to meet with Kutner
in his office and would bring Russell with him. So Russell went over
there and met with Kutner and Brantman. I asked Brantman what
the conversation was about and he said Kutner told him he could help
him that innocuous questions would be asked and he would be let go
Mr. Halley. Where did this conversation occur «
^.^nnf??^^'"' P' ^'^J^^^:'^ 0^^^- Brantman said Kutner wanted a
Sn Ann "^ addition to that he wanted between $25,000 and
<pO0,00U.
When Kutner did come to my office he wanted police protection He
said he wanted police protection. We have six of our policemen, who
could be doing other work, guarding him.
Mr. Halley Did Brantman tell you any more about Kutner's
relations with Russell ?
^^^^•.^OYLE. He said that Kutner— do you want me to tell you all
ORGANIZED CRIME IX IXTERSTATE COMMERCE 167
Mr. Halley. Absolutely. I xN-oiild like to have a copy of the state-
Mr. Boyle. I will give you a copy of both statements.^ He said that
Kiitner presumably was talking on the phone to the Senator m tlie
office putting on an act for Mr. Russell, that he would surrender Mr.
Russell and he wanted a subpena and the subpena would be sent to
the office ; that later on Russell refused to accept the subpena and said
he didn't want Kutner to represent him any longer, and about a month
later Brantman got a call from Russell and he said to Brantman,
"What is the idea of bringing me to Kutner \ He is heating me up
with the committee and all over the country and I never did any harai
to him. I never even hired him. He is not my lawyer and why is he
te]ling these stories about me, trying to put me in jail ?"
Brantman said at that time he was a little tough about it, that Rus-
sell was very put out about Kutner's activity against Russell, whom he
no longer represented.
That is the substance of the statement.
]\Ir. Halley. When the Drury killing came along, Kutner seemed to
feel that he also was in jeopardy. ,
Mr. BoYLE. Yes. He has six policemen assigiied to him from my
office now, on three shifts. He was very excited and he talked to some
+"riend of his and they said, "You had better be careful." He talks at
length, quite a gabby fellow. He goes into flights of fancy about how
wonderful he is. ■ i ■ • i i i x
Mr. Halley. Did he have any information about any individual tliat
Drury might have been ready to give evidence about or to bring in to
testify %
Mr. Boyle. No.
Mr. Halley. Any new name in the picture ?
Mr. Boyle. No. If he did, I will get the statement and give you the
statement. It is a complete question and answer statement of both of
them. It should help you. . . n ^, •
Mr. Halley. Where does the Drury investigation stand at this
time? „ , . , ,
Mr Boyle. Lt. Andrew Aiken, the chief of detectives, has been
working on it day and night, I know that. He has fifty-some police-
men assigned to the Drury killing. Our office has been working on it.
I have men assigned to the Drury case. There is an investigator out
here now down in Indiana about some fellow who was shot clown there,
a former inmate of Michigan State Penitentiary, who was a former
cellmate of Yaros or Petry when originally arrested. He went down
there to get some bullets and ballistics going back to the old Ragen case.
They think maybe some connection there is possible. I don t know
what Mr. Drury had been doing lately, except that Kutner did tell
me he had o-iven a lot of information down in Florida. I took a state-
ment from'^Connelly also. Connelly told me that Drury m Florida
would point out these hoodlums, these known gangsters, who woulcl
come down to Florida and was working with a man on the Miami
News, is it ?
The Chairman. A boy named Petit.
Mr. Boyle. Petit, that is right. He gave Petit a lot of information
about these fellows. He would go into night clubs and restaurants
and look around and find certain fellows and give that information to
Petit Connelly seemed to think that that might have had something
168 ORGANIZED CRIME; IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
to do with his killing. He mentioned some people in St. Paul. The
name was Terhune. I wnll give you that statement also. He also
mentioned a group in St. Louis called the Rocky Gang, some name
like that, and he gave me their names. He mentioned a group in
Cleveland. He gave me three names in Cleveland of fellows that
Drury had been exposing to this new^spaper. He said he also worked
with this fellow Velie on Collier's magazine.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever confront Kutner with Brantman's
charges?
Mr. BoYi.E. No ; I never had an opportunity, but I will.
Mr. Halley. Would it interfere with your investigation if he were
confronted with those charges here?
Mr. Boyle. No; not a bit. I think he should be confronted here.
I will liave those over today if you want them, those statements.
Mr. Halley. Thank you.
Mr. Boyle. Anything else?
The Chairman. I was just going to say in connection with this we
appreciate your telegram. We sent you a telegram, and I told Mr.
Robinson to write in more detail. The only thing we had on Drury
was that he had written us about employment, which had not worked
out. We had some exchange of letters.
Mr. Boyle. Most of this information that Bill Drury had, unless
it Avas something developed lately, liad been printed. This fellow
Connelly told me he worked with Leyton Mortimer and he was going
to work with him on a new book about Florida, something along those
lines.
The Chairman. As you found out, he furnished a good deal of in-
formation to the Cox Newspapers, and this chap F'etit — I don't know
whether Mr. Drury knew of it or not, but I assume he did — passed on to
us a memorandum that Di-ury had furnished to him. From time to
time a chap, Lowery, in Washington, would pass on to me informa-
tion, something that had come from Drury, about things in Florida
and otherwise. That is the whole connection with him.
Mr. Halley. As you know, about two or two and a half weeks before
the murder, Kutner wrote a letter to the committee, addressed I be-
lieve to me, saying that he wanted to bring Drury and Connelly l)efore •
the committee to testify, that they were his clients and he wanted to
produce them.
]\Ir. Boyle. He told me the reason he wanted a subpena was to pro-
tect Drury, not Connelly. He wanted a subpena to protect Drury
and he wanted a subpena for himself. Then they would be under
the protection of this committee. That is wdiat he told me. ,
Mr. Halley. I thought you had the full facts, but for your infor-
mation these are the facts as I understand them, and George Robinson
may have certain additional information. Kutner wrote such a let-
ter, but not asking for a subpena, simply saying, as I recall the letter,
that
The Chairman. Do we have the letter?
Mr. Robinson. I don't recall the letter.
Mr. Halley. The letter may be in Washington.
The Chairman. Let us get a copy of it and give it to Mr. Boyle.
Mr. Halley. Kutner will have it, offering to ]n'oduce two people to
testify. The letter was not acknowledged in writing for reasons con-
nected with the fact that certain intimations of the Brantman matter
ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 169
had come to my attention, but when I visited Chicago I asked Mr. Rob-
inson to get ill touch with Kutner. Kutner had been telephoning all
day to reach me in Chicago. I did not speak to him but asked ^Nlr. Rob-
inson on my departure to call Kutner. Mr. Robinson was in the
process of getting in touch with ]SIr. Kutner when the murder oc-
curred. Whether there is any connection between the desire of Kutner
to bring Drury and Connelly in as witnesses and the murder, I have
no way of knowing.
The" Chairman. I thought you called.
IVIr. Halley. George will bring it up to date now\
Mr. Robinson. I did call Kutner, the sole purpose being to tell
him that you had been unable to call him and that I would like to
talk to Drury. I told him that I would call Drury since I had
Drury 's numlWr. and arrange for some time to interview him.
jNIr. B0YT.E. You told me that.
Mr. Robinson. I called Drury's house. I didn't reach him but
reached his wife. He was to call back at 7 : 30. I think I passed on
that information to you. Kutner called me back later at night, and
that is the first time I heard about his asking for protection.
Mr. Halley. He hadn't asked for a subpena. He simply said he
wanted to arrange to bring them in to give their testimony to the
committee.
The Chairman. Did he ask you for a subpena for protection ?
I^Ir. Robinson. Xot until after the Drury killing.
The Chairman. He wanted one himself.
Mr. Robinson. He was talking mostly about Connelly. I didn't
get the indication that he wanted one for himself, although he was
a little concerned.
The Chairman. Yes; he did want one for himself. This happened
the following day. It adds to the mystery and what not. Lester
Velie called me from New York rather frantically saying that he had
been in touch with Kutner. and Kutner was in a terrible shape, locked
in his office and afraid to get out.
Mr. Boyle. I had to send a policeman down to take him out.
The Chairman. He asked if there was anything I can do. I said,
"I don't know a thing in the world I can do." He said, "I think he
was trying to help you fellows and you ought to do something to help
So Lester gave his telephone number, and said, "If you get a Federal
subpena served on him to appear before your committee, at least that
might scare somebody olf, that the Federal Government would have
iunsdiction. Would you call him up?" n n
I thought just to get what information he might have 1 would call
him up. ^So I called him on the telephone and he said he was scared
to death. He had been in his office and afraid to get out.
I said, "Well, I have a subpena written out right here, and I will
read it to you." .
He said, "Don't read it to me. I will accept it quick.
Mr. Boyle. I don't know whether he was frightened or was a
publicitv seeker. . ., i •. n ^
The Chairman. I said, "I must read it to you, so 1 read it all to
him and made a notation on the back, "Served by having read it.
Meantime somebody had been in touch with you, George, to go over
68958— 51— pt. 5 12
170 ORGANIZED CRIME. IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
and actually serve one on him, which I think was done. I asked him
as of that time what he could tell me about the matter and he couldn't
tell me anythino- on the telephone. I asked him to tell Mr. Kobinson
or you anythintj- he had to tell so we could help get the matter solved.
Air. Boyle. May I say something off the record.
The Chairman. Off the record.
(Off the record.)
Mr. White. I have one technical question, Mr. Boyle. I am told
that Drury was shot not only with a shotgun, but four .45 slugs pierced
his head in a row right across through his forehead; is that correct?
Mr. Boyle. That is not my understanding. He was shot witli a
shotgun, one .4.5 slug was in the ceiling of the garage, and the other
.45 slug went through the hood of the car. They cut that out and got
the smashed bullet. The things that actually killed him were these
three shotgun blasts, four blasts, right across the windshield.
Mr. White. You mean buckshot pellets that pierced the windshield
or four separate blasts ?
Mr. Boyle. Four separate blasts that made holes about this big
around, about an inch in diameter, right in a line, the four of them
right through a windshield one after the other. You know these leaden
pellets you have in the shotgun. The shotgun is what killed him, and
not the .45, as I understand it.
Mr. White. I may be incorrectly informed, but I suggest in case
this other story is correct that there were four .45 slugs in his forehead,
in a direct line and closely spaced, it would seem improbable that those
could have been made by someone firing an automatic pistol, but more
likely they would be made by someone firing a machine gun, which of
course first is the same as a .45 pistol. If it had been a machine gun
it w^ould be a very material point. The Federal Government would
have some jurisdiction because it would be assumed that the machine
gun was not a licensed one, and, secondly, it would show a greater
gang influence than perhaps a pistol would. People who carry ma-
chine guns are more closely connected with organized crime than
people who carry .45's.
Mr. BoYi.E. Shotguns can be a pretty good weapon too.
]Mr. White. Yes. I understand two weapons were used, in any case.
Mr. Boyle. The theory of the police, of Andy Aiken, from talking
to him, is that the shots from the .45's were used to keep him in the
car, in other words, to drive him in his corner where the fellow had
the shotgun. That is their theory.
Mr. White. I suggest if there were four .45 holes, it would merit
inquiry as to whether it was a machine gun or an automatic. If it was
a machine gun I think it would be worth inquiring into.
Mr. Boyle. The slugs could have been from a machine gun. They
were. 45 slugs.
Mr. White. No one saw the gun, of course. Since both guns used
the same cartridge
Mr. Boyle. Frankly I thought I got a break. A fellow called the
Tribune and said he wanted to talk to me about the killing, the vice
president of an insurance company. He was walking about a block
from the scene of the killing, and he heard the five explosions and
about 5 minutes to 7 a man got in a car at the curb and drove off north
on Lincoln Avenue, which is about a block away, and as he did a street-
car hit him and his car caught on the front step of the streetcar. The
ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN IMTERSTATE COMMERCE 171
thing that attracted this man's attention was that he tried to get away
by swinging the wheel and gunning the car and finally he broke the
step of the streetcar off and got away. The streetcar got the license
number and it developed he had been in a tavern at that point drinking
all afternoon and didn't even remember the accident. We thought
we had a red-hot lead and worked a couple of days on that. Of course
you run into a blind alley in all cases of tliis type, but we thought we
had something.
The Chair:man. Do you think the possibility of his appearance
before our committee or that he was going to talk before our committee
is any clue or is that just 1 of 15 or 20 ?
Mr. Boyle. That is one of many. The question is : Did he know
anything other than that which has been printed in the newspapers ?
The Chairman. Of course in' that connection they might have at-
tached a little more significance to his coming before a committee and
just telling the Herald American or the Cox newspapers or Lester
Velie or Lee Mortimer about something.
Mr. Boyle. That is true. Of course these names that Connelly
gave me are names that he had dug up, having records in connection
with these outfits. These men that Drury exposed in Cleveland, in
St. Paul, in St. Louis, and spots like that, so-called respectable citizens
up to that time, may have had something to do with it. That is a
theory, of course.
Mr. White. Does Connelly feel that this association with Drury in
any manner now puts him in a precarious position ?
Mr. Boyle. He has a police card. He hold me he didn't care wheth-
er he had it or not. They told me he sat in a tavern waiting for the
police car to come over and pick him up. Connelly said he didn't
know what Drury was doing in Florida except what Drury told him.
He didn't know anything about these other places except what Drury
told him. I don't know whether Connelly is telling the truth or not.
He said he didn't see Drury the afternoon of the killing. He talked
to him that night, and it developed he was in Kutner's office with him
that afternoon.
The Chairman. We are going to have Mr. Connelly up here. Are
there any particular questions that you would like to have us ask him,
or any other witness ?
Mr. Boyle. You might fiiid out what Mr. Connelly has been doing
for the last several months. I suppose you have read in the papers that
his income is $94 a month, a police pension. The day of the killing
he bought a new Oldsmobile car. He is paying $100 a month on the
car. His rent is $40 a month. He has to live, as well. When you ask
him, or try to pin him down as to where he is going to get the money
for all these things, he says, "Oh, well, I expect to get a job."
Mr. Halley. Drury was in about the same shape, wasn't he?
Mr. Boyle. At least Drury had some money in his box. He had
$G00 in his pocket, and $1,000 in a box, and he had some stocks and
some bonds.
Mr. Halley. Is there any truth to the story that a man walked
into the Cadillac Co. with him, and Drury turned in his old car and
the man paid $2,000 in cash for a new one for him ?
Mr. Boyle. That statement was supposed to have been obtained by
a Daily Xews reporter. They tell me at the Daily News that they
are willino^ to make an affidavit that he told him that, but now he has
172 ORGANIZED CRIME' IN mfTERSTATE COMMERCE
cliiin<>:ed liis story and it isn't true, that the fellow didn't come up
with $2,000. Of course, I asked him where he got his 1950 Cadillac,
and he said "Denemark."" This fellow Gioe bought his at Denemark's.
Cani})iigna for the first time in his life bought one at Joe Bergl's in-
stead of Denemark's, but he always did business with Denenuirk be-
fore, I don't know wliat significance that has in the case, but these
fellows evidently did business with Denemark when they purchased
their cars.
The Chairm x. Mr. Boyle, have any political elforts been atteaupted
to be used on you in connection with the prosecution or nonprosecu-
tion of any cases ^
Mr. Boyle. Never, believe me, never. It wouldn't make any diifer-
ence if they tried, but no one ever has tried.
The Chairman. That goes for the force that is working under you,
so far as you know '.
Mr. BoVle. Oh, yes. If I tell them to do something, I expect it to
be done. So far, those orders have been carried out.
The Chairman. Anything else, gentlemen '.
Mr. Robinson. I have about four questions I would like to ask.
How long has Mr. Gilbert been investigator for the State's attor-
ney's office ?
Mr. Boyle. Eighteen years.
Mr. Robinson. Do you know what he did ]3rior to that time?
Mr. Boyle. He was captain of police, supervising captain of police.
At that time they had districts where tliey had supervising captains.
They would have probably 10 police captains under them, a sort of
deputy commissioner.
Mr. Robinson. Do you know wliat he did prior to his position with
the police force?
Mr. Boyle. No, except what I have i-ead in the newspapers. He
worked for some union as a business agent, or something. That is(
what I heard.
Mr. Robinson. Do you know anything about where he got his
money 'l
Mr. Boyle. No ; I do not.
Mr. Robinson. Do you know whether or not he engages in any
gambling activities personally?
Mr. Boyle. No; I do not, except perhaps betting on elections.
Mr. Robinson. That is all.
Mr. Boyle. Do you mean does he bet the horses ? Is that what you
mean ?
Mr. Robinson. Yes.
Mr. Boyle. I never knew of him to bet the horses. He never told me
that, and I don't know of anybody who ever said so.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever hear of any testimony or allegation that
a Tubb was getting about $2,000 a month from racketeers?
Mr. Boyle. That was in the Tribune.
Mr. Halley. Was that supposed to be Tubby Joseph ?
Mr. Boyle. I asked him about that, and he denies that that ever
was him, that he ever got any money. He has been called Tubby.
Mr. Halley. Did he say he was going to sue the Tribune for libel,
or anything like that?
Mr. Boyle. No ; he did not. We don't have many libel suits in Chi-
cago.
ORGANIZED CRIM& IN INfTERSTATE COMMERCE 173
The Chairman. You have complete freedom of the press?
Mr. Boyi.E. Complete freedom of the press, believe me.
(Discussionoff the record.)
The Chairman. Mr. Boyle, we appreciate very much your coming.
Mr. Boyle. I would like to put this in the record ; and, if you have
anv objections, sav so, and I won't do it. I would like to put in mv
earnings as a lawyer prior to becoming State's attorney of Cook
County, if you don't mind. ^.^ ^. ,
1943, fees amounted to $40,629.01. 1944, $42,946.32. 1945, $44,-
981.19. 1946, $34,776.16.
]SIr. Halley. Is that gross fees ?
Mr. Boyle. Those are gross fees.
The Chairman. About how much did your expenses run i
Mr. Boyle. I don"t know. I suppose I cleared about $20,000 or
$25,000. ^ ^ ^
The Chairman. How old are you, Mr. Boyle i
Mr. Boyle. I am 48. ^ r^ ^ -, i ^ o
The Chairman. You are a Northwestern Law School graduate i
Mr. Boyle. No. De Paul University.
In 1947, $40,232.71; and in 1948, the least year, for 11 months,
$44,041.45. ' , . n .• .1 ^
The Chairman. I will tell you, that brings up the question that a
lot of people ask me, not bragging. I made a little more practicing
law back in the thirties than I make now in the Senate. They ask
me why I <Tave up law practice to get into politics. I am always hard
pressed ior an answer. So, might I ask you, what did you quit all this
°Mr Boyle. First of all, it is the ego of the man, perhaps. Perhaps,
another thing, I probably hoped to be State's attorney of Cook County
someday, but never thought that I ever would be. So, I am trying
to do a o-ood job, and I think we owe something to the community m
which we live', and we owe something to the people with whom we live.
Sure, you make a sacrifice when you take public office. Perhaps we
like tlie things that go with the office, recognition m the community
and all that sort of thing.
The Chairman. The nice part, the grandchildren have something
to talk about. , o , -i
Mr. Boyle. The grandchildren will talk about you, Senator, and
be very proud of you.
The' only reason I put this in was to show you that any moneys 1
received from the Trans-American outfit were very nominal, because
after I paid my taxes I had nothing left, frankly. That is the only
company that 1 have ever represented in my life, or any persons, that
ever had any tinge of any kind, believe me. , • . .i
The Chairman. Did they have another lawyer working lor them at
that time ?
Mr. Boyle. Not that I know. -pi
The Chairman. Somebody on taxes, or something ot that sort i
:Mr. Boyle. They may have. I didn't know anything about it.
The Chairman. * Did you get up their tax returns ?
Mr. Boyle. No ; I did not.
The Chairman. Do you know who did that ?
Mr. Boyle. No.
174 ORGANIZED CRIMEi EST ITS'iTE ESTATE COMMERCE
The Chairman. You just handled their corporate papers, and what
not?
Mr. Boyle. That is ri^ht; that is all it was, frankly, and contracts.
Mr. Halley. In writing: up these contracts, did you ever deal with
anybody on the other side, the people that they were contracting
with ?
Mr. Boyle. Yes ; several times they would come in and sign a con-
tract, persons who would have some publishing company.
Mr. Halley. Wliat -sort of people were they ?
Mr. Boyle. Pretty high-class-looking people.
Mr. Halley. Do you remember any of the names, or would your
records show you who they were ?
Mr. Boyle. I think so. Somebody from Kentucky and somebody
from some other places. This outfit folded up.
Mr. Halley. The basic problem is to find out who is behind it.
Everybody, I might say, including your police commissioner, seems
to feel that there was somebody behind that Trans- American.
Mr. Boyle. They never let me know about it, if there was.
Mr. Halley. And, when you go to investigate it, you hit a blank.
The Chairman. Mr. Boyle, it would be very useful, if you find the
file tomorrow, if sometime you could drop by and let Mr. Halley or
Mr. Robinson go over it with you.
Mr. BoYLE. I would be glad to cooperate.
The Chairman. We appreciate very much your appearance, and
we will be in touch with jou from time to time. Any suggestions
that come to you that may be helpful to us. we would appreciate your
passing on to us. I wish that you would do this, Mr. Boyle. After
thinking it over, give us any recommendations for Federal legislation
that might be effective without infringing on the rights of the State
and the local community, that might be helpful in the problem of law
enforcement. Do you think of some now ?
Mr. Boyle. As I understand now, the wire service is perfectly legiti-
mate and legal.
The Chairman. That is right.
Mr. Boyle. It was in 1946 and 1947. It was legitimate at that
time. I think if you pass a law preventing the passage of slot
machines across State lines it will be a tremendous thing for the local
law-enforcing officials.
The Chairman. It would not help you here in Illinois ?
Mr. Boyle. I think it would.
The Chairman. You think it would ?
Mr. Boyle. Yes ; I do.
The Chairman. I thought they were all made here.
Mr. Boyle. A lot of them are made here; most of them are made
here.
(Brief recess.)
TESTIMONY OF ELMER MICHAEL WALSH, SHEEIFF,
COOK COUNTY, ILL.
The Chairman. Sheriff, we are sorry to have detained you so long.
Sheriff Walsh. That is all right.
The Chairman. Have a seat, sir.
Mr. Halley, will you ask the sheriff any questions you have ?
ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 175
Mr. Halley. Will you state your jurisdiction?
Sheriff Wai.sh. :My jurisdiction is Cook County. The sheriff here
is still the highest law-enforcement officer in the count:y. However,
the sheriff does not exercise jurisdiction in the municipalities, par-
ticularly in Chicago. Cook County has some 91 incorporated towns.
There are about a total of 850 police in these incorporated towns, in
aggregate number. So the sheriff confines himself, so far as police
work is concerned, to the unincorporated areas in Cook County. There
are about 450 miles of unincorporated area in Cook County.
Mr. Halley. How many men do you have on your force, and how
are they distributed?
Sheriff Walsh. One hundred twenty-nine.
Mr. Halley. How do you use them ?
Sheriff Walsh*. Those men are divided into three districts : In the
north end of the county, we have a station in Homewood; in the mid-
dle of the county, Bedford Park ; and in the south end of the county
is Homewood, district No. 3.
Mr. Halley. How many are available for civil work and how many
for criminal work?
Sheriff Walsh. I have 772 employees in my office. Only about one-
sixth of the budget is provided for highway police. All the other
men are used for process servers, civil and criminal, all the bailiffs
in the courtrooms, civil courts and criminal courts. The sheriff is the
warden of the county jail. There are 13:2 men over there. I am also
the custodian of the County Building in Chicago, and also the Crimi-
nal Court Building on the West Side; and as custodian, I have a
large number of employees to do the window washing, floor mop-
ping, elevator operators, and all the work of keeping up those build-
ings. However, I have only 129 men in police work, and that is all
the budget provides for.
Mr. Halley. How much road do they have to patrol ?
Sheriff Walsh. There is about 450 square miles of unincorporated
territory in Cook County. In the last 10 years, I think I told you
when you were in my office, the population in Chicago has gone out to
live in rural areas, so much so that 60 percent, in the last 10 years,
of the population in the country towns has come into the country
towns away from Chicago. In other words, Chicago has increased
only 7 percent in population in 10 years, and in the rural areas it has
increased 40 percent in 10 years.
Mr. Halley. Do you use any of your staff for crnnmal nivestiga-
tion? . . TXT 1
Sheriff Walsh. Very little, because of my appropriation. AVe have
no investigators in the sheriff's office at all.
Mr. Halley. Would you say, as a practical matter, then, within the
municipalities, the municipal' officers take care of it, and outside of
at least the city of Chicago you have left investigative work to the
State's attorney's office ? . ^ ■, ,. xi
Sheriff Walsh. To the State's attorney s office and, of course, the
various towns and cities in Cook County that have their own police
forces.
Mr. Halley. You make no effort to do investigative work?
Sheriff Walsh. No; except that we help where we can and assist
these other chiefs of police in these towns where we can and when
we can.
176 ORGANIZED CRIME: IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Ml'. Haixey. You have mentioned that under the hiw the sheriff is
really the hio-hest law-enforcement officer in the county.
Sheriff Walsh. That is correct.
Mr. Halley. Has any step been taken or any recommendation
been made by you to cure what one might say is the state to which
the office lias come, with your force so taken up with civil duties,
process serving, and things like that ?
Sheriff Walsh. Yes ; there Jias. Each year before the budget is
passed upon, I have requested an addition 100 ]wlice officers which
I can put on investigative work and hel]) the general police work.
I have been turned down every year that I have gone in.
Mr. Halley. Under the budget, are you compelled to use your 600
men for civil work and process serving? Are you unable to take men
off that job and use them for police work?
Sheriff AValsii. I could take them off that work, but that load is
so heavy, because every lawsuit that is filed in Cook County has to
come through my office for service. We have to serve all those civil
courts. The lawsuits are piling up here and getting larger in volume
every year.
Mr.' Halley. For instance, when you have an important event like
the murder of Drury, an obvious gangster murder, would it be possible
for your office to take part in the investigation, since under the law
you are the highest law-enforcement officer?
Sheriff Walsh. We could. We don't have enough men to assign
to that work because, first of all, we feel that the Chicago police have
greater facilities than we have, and we never come into Chicago
unless they ask us to, and they have never asked us. So, we confine
ourselves to the county, the rural districts.
Mr. Halley. In the country, you do not do investigative work ; is
that correct?
Sheriff Walsh. Only when it pertains to something which w^e find
ourselves in an unincorporated territory.
Mr. Halley. Have you been, for instance, picking up slot machines?
Sheriff Walsh. Yes. Since I have been sheriff, we have seized,
confiscated, and destroyed approximately, at this date, about 1,450
slot machines.
Mr. Halley. As of what date is that, Sheriff?
Sheriff Walsh. I w-as installed as sheriff in December 1946, and my
term expires in about 2 months, December 1. I think my term
expires about 2 months from now\
Mr. Halley. Have those seizures resulted in prosecution?
Sheriff Walsh. Those seizures have resulted in prosecutions. _0n
probably 95 percent of them we got convictions, and the machines
wei-e destroyed.
Mr. Halley. They are prosecuted by the State's attorney's office?
Sheriff Walsh. By the State's attorney.
Mr. Halley. Have you been active in any other ty])e of gambling
investigation, bookmaking, and so on, gambling houses?
Sheriff Walsh. Yes. We have raided approximately 725 books
since I have been sheriff, in pretty nearly 4 years, now.
Mr. Halley. Do you find, after you raid them, you are able to get
convictions ?
Sheriff Walsh. Yes, we are able to get convictions on books, but
unfortunately, like the slot-machine convictions, all they get is a $100
ORGANIZED CRIME' IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 177
fine, and they just s[)iing up again. The books are the same way.
We are unable to get any results to have them prosecuted under the
repeater section of the statute. It is very difficult to find the same
person with the same book the second time, and the State's attorney
has trouble in prosecution and getting convictions.
Mr. Halley. You get cooperation from him, however, in attempting
to do so ?
Sheriff Walsh. Yes, we get cooperation from the State's attorney,
especially since State's Attorney Boyle got about 75 police from the
Chicago Police Department which he is now using in the county to
assist in gambling raids.
Mr. Halley. Is there still a serious gambling problem in the county ?
Sheriff Walsh. I would say not now, not for about a year, since
State's Attorney Boyle got these additional police who are assisting
now in the slot-machine raids.
Mr. Halley. How recently is that ?
Sheriff Walsh. How recently^ I would say it is over a year.
Mr. Halley. Since then, has'the gambling decreased considerably?
Sheriff Walsh. Yes. The slot machines now have. When I first
came in office, the machines were up on bars in taverns. We have
driven them to back rooms. We have driven them to putting them
in steel cases, hiding them away, putting them in rooms, rolhng them
out when they know everybody who is in the place, and rolhng them
back when they feel somebody"^comes in that they don't know.
Mr. Halley. What would be the situation on horse books at the
Sheriff Walsh. On horse books, they keep springing up. We will
make a raid at one location, and the follovdng week they will move
2 blocks away in some basement.
Mr. Halley. Where do they get their wire serviced Have you
made an effort to find out?
Sheriff Walsh. It is usually through their telephones.
Mr. Halley. Do you get cooperation from the telephone company (
Sheriff Walsh. Yes, we do. The telephone company has been
pretty good about removing phones.
Mr. Halley. But they are able to get new phones and spring up
again? , • ,^ ^ j.-
Sheriff Walsh. They are able to get new phones m other locations.
Mr H\lley. Sheriff, can you give the committee any information
on organized crime in Chicago? Have you seen any evidence or do
you have any information about the Capone group of gangsters and
their successors, in Cook County ?
Sheriff Walsh. In Cook County?
Mr. Halley. Yes. ^ , , i ^
Sheriff W\lsh. Of course, all that I know about the Capone
so-called syndicate, and that group, is what I read m the papers
and what I read about what the crime commission has done to reveal
their names. I have never come across any of them, myself, m my
work in the sheriff's office. You never find those people m these
books that we raid. You never find them m the taverns that we
raid these slots in. They are never there.
There is some evidence of organized gambling, I would say, because
some of these taverns we have raided as many as 9 and 10 times and
got convictions every time, and the slot machines keep coming back
178 ORGANIZED CRIME: IN INTEI^STATE COMMERCE
in again. It doesn't seem possible that these places would be able
to put those slots up each time unless they had some help from
someone else, unless some organization was behind it.
]\Ir. Halley. Have you had any informants or information that
the slot-machine business in the county is syndicate-controlled ?
Sheriff Walsh. Just by hearsay and general rumors that the slot
machines in many parts of the county were organized. We never
have been able to get any proof. The owners, when we raid these
slots, say they own the machines themselves. There is never any
evidence we can ever get, when we make one of these raids, that
ties in an organized group.
Mr. Halley. Do you make any effort in the county to keep track
of the people who are notorious as being the Capone syndicate gang-
sters, to find out what they are doing?
Sheriff Walsh. We have never made it a practice of doing that,
because of the multitudinous duties we have. We have the regular
police duties as well as making these raids. We have accidents on
our highways. We have burglaries. We have robberies; stolen-car
cases. We don't have any investigative staff, which that would
require.
Mr. Halley. I have no other questions.
The Chairman. Mr. Eobinson ?
Mr. Robinson. No, I don't think I have any.
The Chairman. Sheriff, there have been some rumors and state-
ments to the effect that gambling places run out in the county con-
siderably, and that you can drive along and see a place where a lot
of cars are, and you can go in and find that gambling is going on
in there. Do you have any information about that?
Sheriff Walsh. Would you be talking about a town that has
its own police force ?
The Chairman. No, I mean outside of the towns, apparently,
some of the taverns.
Sheriff Walsh. If there are any cars around there, our squads are
instructed to go in and check on it and see if there is any gambling
going on.
The Chairman. How many such squads do you have or how many
men do you have ?
Sheriff Walsh. I have Mr. Greene, the chief of my highway police,
here, in case jou want to ask him any questions. He has been in police
work about 16 years.
We have available in each station about three squads. You break
them down into shifts and take time off' for furloughs and absenteeism
and the like, and we have three squads for each station, approximately,
on each duty.
The Chairman. How many stations do you have ?
Sheriff Walsh. Three stations.
The Chairman. You do not undertake to do anything in the incor-
porated cities?
Sheriff Walsh. No ; we do not. I have written about 90 letters to
the mayors of towns and incorporated areas, calling their attention to
gambling violations which have been related to me, and in some cases
we have gone in ourselves and made many raids.
The Chairman. How about some of these towns ? They have had
pretty bad enforcement, have they not?
Sheri ff Walsh. Yes ; they have.
ORGANIZEiD CRIME IX rXTERSTATE COMMERCE 179
The Chairman. Do you not think you have a duty, where they have
bad enforcement, to go in there?
Sheriff Walsh. We have gone in there, Senator, many times. But
our primary obligation is in the unincorporated areas. We have gone
into many of those towns.
The Chairman. How about political pressure on your operations i
Do politicians try to get vou to lay-off?
Sheriff Walsh. Xo ; I would say I get very little or no pressure from
the politicians. I think that is accounted for because of the fact that
when I was elected I decided I would have World War II veterans in
the highwav police department. I was a veteran myself. I made a
pledge that I would have veterans in that office and I got veterans m
there. I would say that the largest percentage of them don't come
through ward committemen or are men who have an obligation to the
ward committeemen.
The Chairman. You say "the largest percentage." Do you have
quite a percent who come through ward committeemen?
Sheriff Walsh. Oh, yes, we do.
The Chairman. How do they come through ?
Sheriff Walsh. The ward committeeman will recommend John Doe
for a job as a highway policeman. He comes in the office and is inter-
viewed by my assistant. He is fingerprinted. If he meets our quali-
fications, and an FBI check is made on him and name checked, he is
put on the job and we give him some training.
The Chairman. Are those Democrat and Kepublican ward com-
mitteemen ?
Sheriff Walsh. I am a Republican. I am one of the few Repub-
licans in Chicago in law enforcement. I am encircled around with
Democrats, for the most part, here in Chicago.
The Chairman. Who are some of the Republican ward committee-
men we have been hearing about ?
JSIr. Cahn. Anybodv from the river wards ?
Sheriff Walsh. I could tell you about that. The river wards are
the wards over — some names were mentioned today — Adducci, and
Porcaro, and those fellows. They have a few jobs in my office, not
very many. I gave them a kind of rough time because of the fact that
they were not for me for sheriff. They were against me for sheriff.
I ran for county treasurer in the primary last spring, and they were
against me again, all that same group. So they didn't benefit by me
being in office very much, from the patronage standpoint.
The Chairman. You say "very much." How much did they benefit
by vour being in office ?
' Sheriff Walsh. They got about, I would say. about as much as the
other ward committeemen. In other words, they got maybe a third less
than the others did. Of course, an elected Republican committeeman
is entitled to some patronage, but they didn't get very much from me.
The Chairman. Is your office run on a patronage basis ?
Sheriff Walsh. Yes, it is. It is not civil service. It is on a patron-
age basis. And when my term expires in December and a new man
comes in, ostensibly there will be a complete turn-over of employees.
The Chairman. " You mean vou turned them all over when you got
in?
Sheriff Walsh. Yes. I took over from a Democrat. The previous
sheriff was a Democrat. When I came in office, I weeded out, I would
180 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
say, 90 percent of the men he had in his ojffice. I kept about 10 per-
cent of them, who were unusually good, I thoujiht.
The CiTAiKMAN. That is a pretty bad business, is it not?
Sherifl' Walsh. It is a bad business. It shouldn't be done. It
should be civil service. I am in favor of civil service
The Chairman. What would it take to make it civil service ?
Sheriff Walsh. It takes an amendment of our State constitution.
The Chairman. Can you not just pass a law in the legislature?
Sheriff Walsh. No, they can't do that here. They have to amend
the constitution.
The Chairman. Do you have civil service for the county ?
Sheriff Walsh. That is right. Because the sheriff's office is a fee
office. I got an opinion on that when I was first elected.
The Chairman. How are you paid, by salary or by fee ?
Sheriff Walsh. I am paid by salary.
The Chairman. How much do you make?
Sheriff Walsh. $9,941 a year.
The Chairman. Do yon get any fees in addition to that '.
Sheriff Walsh. No fees in addition to that.
The Chairman. How about your patrolmen, your deputies, are
they all paid by fees ?
Sheriff Walsh. They get $260 a month. They are paid the same
way I am. None of them are paid on a fee basis.
The Chairman. Where do the fees come in?
Sheriff Walsh. The fees come in because the lawyers pay fees for
the services of summons. It is called a fee office.
The Chairman. Oh, yes. If the fees make it, all right. If they
do not, you get your salary anyway ?
Sheriff Walsh. We get our salary anyway.
The Chairman. Is there any effort on the part of these racketeers
or gangster elements to prevent you from being a candidate again for
sheriff?
Sheriff Walsh. I couldn't succeed myself, Senator, in this job. You
cannot succeed yourself here anyhow for sheriff. I ran for county
treasurer here, and the so-called river wards. West Side wards, were
all against me when I ran for treasurer.
The Chairman. Did you get nominated ?
Sheriff Walsh. I was not nominated. I was defeated.
The Chairman. So the river wards seems to be pretty powerful.
Sheriff Walsh. They were against me. They were against me when
I was elected sheriff, too.
The Chairman. Mr. Boyle said he wrote a letter to you, and also to
the police departments of all of these cities in the county, about hand-
books, and that nothing much had been done about it.
Sheriff Walsh. I would say that seven -hundred-and-some handbook
raids is the best answer to that. Senator. That is what my record
shows, and Mr. Boyle prosecuted all those cases. He should know.
The Chairman. Maybe I did not state his testimony correctly. I do
not want to cause any misunderstanding between yon and Mr. Boyle.
How about Guzik and the Fischettis and these peopled Have you
gotten them on any charges ?
Sheriff Walsh. No; we never have. I don't even know them. I
wouldn't know them except by what I read in the papers about them.
I am new, of course, in public life and politics. I just came in when
ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 181
I <rot out of the service and was elected sheriff. Those names have
been names that I have heard for 15 or 20 years, 25 years.
The CiiAiKMAX. But you never came across them ?
Sheriff Walsh. I have never come across them.
The C'liAiKMAX. How about the Mafia or the Unione Siciliano i
Sheriff Walsh. I have never come across them at alh
The Chaikmax. Do you and the police department here m the city
lia\e liaison where yoi\ work together, or do you eacli go your own
^' ^Sheriff Walsh. We have liaison. Mayor Kennelly was kind enough
to assign one Chicago policeman to me, and that one Chicago police-
man is the liaison between my office and Commissioner Prendergast.
If we have anvthing, if I get complaints on anything m Chicago, I give
it to him and "he turns it over to Commissioner Prendergast.
The Chairmax. Do you have any method of working out or ex-
changing information and reports^ .
Sheriff Walsh. Yes. I have talked to Commissioner Prendergast
many times about complaints I have received.
Tiie Ghaiemax. I do not mean talking with him. I mean do you
send him information about reports^ . i ^^ t -ii
Sheriff W^^lsh. Xo. If I get a letter, if I were to get a letter, i will
send the letter to him, about some gambling in Chicago.
Tlie Chairmax. Then how about the State governments Do you
have any system of exchanging information with their State enforce-
ment agency? . 1 , , J. ^1 4.
Sheriff Walsh. We have nothing particularly set up, except that
the lieutenants and my chief are in touch with the State police, and
they cooperate with us very well. , , _, „ . ,
The Chah^max. But you do not send the State all your information,
and they do not send you all of theirs?
Sheriff Walsh. No. • ^ 4:
The Chairmax. Are there any efforts at paying oft you or any ot
your people, or trying to bribe you to cooperate ?
^ Sheriff Walsh. I have never been approached, nor do i know ot
any of my people who have been approached. I have let some people
out of my office because I suspected that they might be taking money,
shakino- down people and the like, but I have no information that any
of my police have ever taken any money, nor have I ever told any of
my police to let a place go. ... . w
Mr H\LLEY. Can you aet a high type of law-enforcement officer
for $260 a month without any tenure, and with the full expectation
of being turned out of office at the end of the term ? ^ ^ tt n
Shpi-Tff Walsh. I would say it is very difficult to do that, Mr. Halley,
very difficult. I think civil service, if it goes through here, and the
Gateway amendment is passed which will probably open the door tor
civil service it will do a whole lot for the police department. There
has been some talk here of consolidating all the police forces in the
county, which I think might have some merit. That means to have
all the police in all these towns, 850 in aggregate number m all the
various towns, and the sheriff's police and the State police, consoli-
dated in one group, where there would be no divided authority, iliat
has some possibility of being worked out, and the civic fecleration has
been talking about that for the last couple of years. That may be
the answer to it.
182 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
The Chairman. That sounds like something that is worth looking
into.
Sheriff Walsh. That is right, sir.
The CiiAiRMAN^. Any other questions, gentlemen?
Mr. Cahn, did you have some things written down there?
Mr. Cahn. No, thank you.
The Chairman. George?
Mr. White. No.
The Chairman. Mr. Kobinson?
Mr. Robinson. No.
The Chairman. Sheriff, we would be very glad to have you consider
the problem that we are looking into, and have you make any recom-
mendations that you think of where the Federal Government could be
of assistance, any laws that might be amended or passed that would
help with the local law enforcement problems. I think we sent you
a letter.
Sheriff Walsh. Yes ; I received it.
The Chairman. I do not know whether I got an answer from you,
or not.
Slieriff Walsh. Yes ; I wrote an answer.
The Chairman. If you think of anything else, you let us know.
Sheriff Walsh. I suggested in the letter about the telephones being
taken out of books and slot machines.
The Chairman. I think at this point we might make the sheriff's
reply to our letter a part of the record.
Sheriff Walsh. I think I sent in two letters.
The Chairman. Yes.
(The letters referred to are identified as exhibit No. 25, and appear
in the appendix on p. 1381.)
The Chairman. Thank you very much, Sheriff Walsh.
Sheriff Walsh. Let me know if I can be of any help later.
The Chairman. Thank you.
(Brief recess.)
TESTIMONY OF OTTO KERNER, JR., UNITED STATES ATTORNEY,
NORTHERN DISTRICT OF ILLINOIS
Mr. Halley. JNIr. Kerner, would you state to the committee, for the
committee's record, what you can add to the picture you have already
heard, of law enforcement in Cook County?
Mr. Kerner. In my 31/0 years as United States attorney in this
district, to my knoAvledge law enforcement locally has been as good
as the law allows it to be.
We in our office have worked with the State's attorney, and in the
many matters where there is concurrent jurisdiction we have worked
in cooperation.
In recent months, for example, is the Brinks murder case, in Avhich
the defendant, Jakalski, was tried twice for murder, and Tamborski
was tried once for murder in one of the cases against Tamjorski, but
they were not successful, and we returned an indictment here for ag-
gravated bank robbery. The State's attorney relinquished jurisdic-
tion of the case in order that the Federal jurisdiction may take over
under the Federal bankino; laws.
OEGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE OOMMEECE 183
There lias been a series of cases which either he has relinquished
jurisdiction or we have, where we thought that justice would be swifter
and the punishment more certain and probably more severe.
Mr. Halley. Is your cooperation with the State's attorney good?
Mr. Kerner. Yes, excellent, I would say ; excellent. I have never
received any harassment nor has any hurdle been placed in our way
in any case that we took over, and I think that Mr. Boyle would prob-
ably say the same about our office.
In the 3 years, I would estimate that in criminal matters the county
and the Federal Government have had approximately 500 or GOO cases
in which there was concurrent jurisdiction, such as stolen automobile
cases, robbery cases, cases generally of that nature. Whenever I have
requested any information of Mr. Boyle in the furtherance of any case
in which there was concurrent jurisdiction or in cases where we have
sole jurisdiction and we thought the State's attorney would have infor-
mation about it, they have willingly turned it over to us.
For instance, yesterday morning an assistant State's attorney called
me and stated that he had a couple of men in his office who knew the
whereabouts of Matt Capone. the alias he was using, that of Hunter,
where he was located. That information, I turned over to the United
States marshal, since I presumed he might have subpenas from this
committee ; and I read by this morning's papers that Matt Capone was
found, and I presume that it was based upon that information.
That, I say, is typical of the type of cooperation that I have had from
Mr. Boyle.
As to my experience with certain of these named individuals whose
names I have seen in the paper, such as Accardo, Bernstein, and certain
hoodlums located in other parts of the United States, my only contact
with them, of course, has been strictly a legal one. As you probably
know, and as the record will show, the parole warrants against three
of the parolees, Campagna. Gioe, and DeLucia, were issued out of this
district. Campagna and Gioe were sent off to the Atlanta Peniten-
tiary. DeLucia fought the Government on that matter through a
petition for a writ of habeas corpus, and was successful both in the
district court and in the Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit.
At the time we learned that there might possibly be grounds for a
parole revocation, a Federal grand jury was given all information
concerning the doings of these parolees ; and all of the parolees, Cam-
pagna, Gioe, DeLucia, and D'Andrea, were before the grand jury. We
sought information both as to the manner of obtaining their paroles
and also as to their conduct since the paroles were granted, and I was
impressed by the fact that names such as Vogel or Ricca from New
York showed up, names like Tony Gizzo from Kansas City, and there
w^as an admission, both by the parolees and by Gizzo, that they knew
each other, and apparent!}^ knew each other through attending race
tracks and various sporting events, betting, and things of that nature.
I also was impressed by the fact that members of the parolee'?
families, on visiting Kansas City, in their A'isits to Leavenworth t^
visit their husbands, were pretty much taken care of, their wants
taken care of, transportation, were taken care of by Tony Gizzo ot*
some employee of his.
The telephone company, of course, provided to us, on subpena, the
telephone reports or billings in the homes of these parolees, and that
184 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
is wliere I noticed t'liat t'liere were telephone calls to aiid from Vogel
to llicca in New York, which shows at least an ac(iuaintaiiceship or
friendship between these individuals. At that time I talked to Virgil
Peterson about it, and Mr. Peterson and I had severa^ conservations
^ind luncheons at which we discussed this apparent t,ie-up among the
hoodlums or the hoodlum element in the Chicago area with elements
throughout various parts of the country.
In that parole investigation, of course, )ye' had very many FBI
reports, and the names of many hoadlums throughout the country
showed up in those reports, and of course, the names of many inno-
cent people as well, who had nothing to do with it and who were per-
fectly good, reliable business people or professional people.
At that time, I concluded in my own mind, certainly, if there was
not a syndicate or Mafia or some organized group throug-'hout the
Nation, certainly they were on more than just friendly speaking terms
with one another, and the theory of Mr. Peterson that there was a
national group working together loomed in my mind as a good prob-
ability or possibility.
During the conduct of that grand jury investigation, I received no
direct evidence, that would stand up in a court of law, that there was
any such organization. Also, the records of this court will show
that an indictment was returned against Tony Accardo and Eugene
Bernstein for violation of old sections 80 and S8 of title 18. One,
title 80, of course, is the ol/:l section of title 18 before September 1,
1948, which made it a crime- to deprive a Government agency or official
of exercising its judgment. Title 88, of course, is a general conspiracy
clause. Under that indictment, Tony Accardo and Eugene Bern-
stein were tried in this court, and a jury found them not guilty of a
violation of either section, title 80 or 88.
Mr. Halley. To what do you attribute the acquittal ?
Mr. Keener. The jury — for what reason, I cannot answer, because
I don't know.
Mr. Halley. Was an FBI investigation made of the jury?
Mr. Kerner. No, an FBI investigation was not made of the jury,
because I was convinced that the jury, in my mind, were above suspi-
cion, and they in their own mind, I am certain, did a very conscientious
job. I remember particidarly the fact that that jury went out, I
believe, on a Friday, and stayed out overnight. They came back
and asked for reinstructions by the court, and then went back. I did
learn that several people, I don't recall the exact number, I think run-
ning three or four, wished to find the two defendants guilty. The
balance of the jury were voting for not guilty.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever find the reason? Did they feel that
there just wasn't a crime involved ?
Mr. Kerner. Several of the jurors told me that after the testimony of
Gordon Hunter, of Leavenworth Penitentiary, that he would have
allowed Accardo in the pi'ison even if he knew his real name, and that,
coupled with the instruction that was presented by the defendants'
counsel that if the jury believed that the warden would have let them
into the penitentiary regardless of what name they used, they should
find the defendants guilty, on that basis they said they changed
their A'ote and did not hold out for a guilty verdict, and voted with the
majority of the jurors under what we call the shotgun or the Adams
instruction.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INITERSTATE COMMERCE 185
Mr Halley. Did vou look into the counsel that they employed in
obttiininff their parole, and the fees paid for the parole^?
Mr Kerxpr. Yes. All of that Avas investigated. The only person
whom we did not have before the grand jury was the president or the
chairman of tne parole board, who died just about the time that we
were bt -'nnincr our grand- jurv investigation. I have forgotten his
name of hand, but h.e came from :Mississippi.; All the other parole
board members were "bt fore the grand jury. ;
We of course, asked the questions, and the grand ]urors were tree
to ask questions of them at anv time, which they did. As a matter of
fact Dr Killinger, who is now chairman of the parole board, wa&
appointed during the pendencv of that grand jury, which lasted ap-
proximately IT months intermittently, olf and on, and even Dr. Kil-
linger appeared before that grand jury and testified.
Mr. Halley. Did Hughes testify? , , . ,-n .
Mr. Kekxer. Yes; Maury Hughes was subpenaed and he testitiecl.
Mr H \LLEY. What was his story, in effect ?
Mr Kerxer. His story, in effect, was the same story that was given
bv him before the congressional committee in Washington, that some
chap came to his office, his law office in Texas, and said that he wanted
him to intervene in the matter and obtain a dismissal of another in-
dictment pending against these same defendants m the court m the
southern district of New York, and he asked the sum of $15,000 tor
those leo-al services. That he did proceed to New 1 ork, and that the
indictment was dismissed. He was not certain whether he caused it
or whether the policv of the Department of Justice caused the dismissal
of that indictment. " That he was paid originally the sum of $1,000 in
a hotel here in Chicago, in $100 bills, and that after the indictment was
dismissed he received the sum of $11,000 m cash m New York Uty,
which he then took to the Hibernia Bank— is there such a bank m xNew
York City?
]Mr. Halley. Yes. . i • , i i tt
Mr Kerxer And there changed the bills into a cashier s check. Me
could not identify the individual. He didn't have the individuaFs
address. The name that was given was an Irish name. I don t recall it
at the present moment.
Mr. Demsreux. Kyan. ^ t i ,. i i ii
Mr Kerxer. Ryan. He stated that the individual didn t look like an
individual who would naturally bear the name of Ryan; that he was
swarthy in color and looked to be of ]SIediterranean descent, but he
never received any telephone number from this man or any address.
This individual always contacted him. and he never contacted him,
nor would he ever be able to coiftact him. He was unable to give any
identification to the grand jury as to who this Ryan individual might
truly be.
Mr. Halley. Did Dillon testify ?
I^lr Kerxer. Dillon did testify. We had difficulty m ourainmg
service on Mr. Dillon. We had a subpena out for him. We were not
able to find him at Ins home or his office in St. Louis, and we received
various reports that he was traveling in and about the country. New
Mexico back to St. Louis and out East.
We finally did locate him in Brookline, Mass., a suburb to the west
of Boston. As soon as I found that out. I got in touch with the marshal
68958— 51— pt. 5 13
186 ORGANIZED CRIME; IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
in Boston, who served a subpena card upon Mv. Dillon, and Mr. Dillon
then reported here to Chicago. Mr. Dillon did appear before the
grand jury and testified.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever ascertain who made the contact for these
people with Dillon?
Mr. Kernek. Yes. Mrs. Campagna testified that she went to Dillon
through Wilhe Heeney, through Putty Nose Grady, and was sent to
Dillon through that means, that channel ; and that she employed Dillon
to intervene on behalf of her husband, I am not certain whether slie
said on behalf of DeLucia as well, but certainly on her husband's
•behalf before the parole board; and that he received the sum of
$10,000, which check we had in our possession, and as an exhibit be-
fore the grand jury, a $10,000 check made out by the First National
Bank of Cicero, I believe that is the bank. I believe it is located on
the northwest corner of Cicero and Cermak Koad in Cicero ; no Austin
and Cermak Road. '
Mr. Halley. Who brought Hughes into the case? Was Dillon the
counsel of record handling the matter ?
Mr. Kerner. Dillon was the counsel before the parole board
Hughes' name never came into any matter, so far as the parole was
concerned. Hughes" only appearance in the matter at all was his ap-
pearance m the southern district of New York to obtain the dis-
missal of the other pending indictment, which had not been tried and
was left pending after the extortion trial or the antiracketeerin*.- in-
dictment was tried successfully. '^
Mr. Halley. Where did Bernstein fit into the picture?
Mr. Kerner. Bernstein fitted into that picture in only one in-
stance—no, in several instances. Bernstein, from the testimonv of
Dei^ucia and Campagna, was their tax attorney, and he appeared" and
did visit Campagna and DeLucia while they were incarcerated at
Leavenworth, and I am not certain at this time whether he also made
a visit or two, I believe he did, while they were incarcerated at Atlanta
He made a number of visits to Leavenworth, and on one of these visits
to Leavenworth he was accompanied by Tony Accardo, who used the
name of Joseph Bulger, which is the same "name which was raised
earlier m the session. His name previouslv was Joseph Imburcrio
He at one time, I understand, was mayor of Melrose Park, an attorney,
and also the same Joseph Bulger who was mentioned by DeLucia I
believe, before your committee, as the president of tlie American-
Italian Society. Bulger— rather, Accardo, using the name of Bul^^cr
m signing the register of the visitors at Leavenworth Penitentiary,
entered Leavenwortli Penitentiary and visited with Campagna and
DeLucia at the same time they were ndsited by Bernstein.
I believe there were severalof those visits. 'l don't recall the exact
number. I would say my best recollection at the present time is not
more than four. There was more than one, but I don't believe more
than tour.
The grand jury indicted Accardo and Bernstein on those char^res,
and that is the indictment I spoke of before. ^
Mr. Halley. Did any of the lawyers figure in the parole picture?
Air. Kerner. To what lawyers do you have reference, Mr. Halley?
Mr. Halley. Representing Campagna, Ricca, and Gioe.
Mr. Kerner. No; the attorneys that represented Accardo and Bern-
stem m the trial of the indictment here were George Callaluvu and
ORGANIZED CRIME- IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 187
another lawyer whose name just temporarily slips my mind. I have
known him and met him when I was practicing law privately as a
foreclosure lawyer, a real-estate lawyer, a general civil lawyer m the
local courts. . -, ■, j^-, j-
Mr. H ALLEY. At the moment, I have m mind, rather, the proceedings
to obtain the parole. ^^ ^- u
My Kerxer. The onlv attorneys who came to our attention who
figTired in the parole at all were Dillon and another lawyer from North
Dakota, whose name I doirt presently have in my mind.
^Ir. RoBiNsox. A lawyer from North or South Dakota represented
Phil b'Andrea. ^ ^w -, i it,
Mr Kerner. He represented Phil D'Andrea alone, and he was
brou<rht into the matter, as I recall, by Phil D'Aiidrea's brother, who
interested this lawyer up in the Dakotas to intervene on Phil
D'Andrea's behalf . „-,..■, i •
Mr. Halley. Wasn't there any evidence of political pressure being
brought to bear to obtain the parole?
]\Ir. Kerner. No : not from any evidence or testimony that we had ;
absolutely not. . -, . , ^ ^^ t
Mr. Halley. Was the situation one m which, unless the parole
board" was misled, a parole would ordinarily be expected to be granted ?
:Mr. Kerner. Let me say that in my experience m the last 31/2 years,
normally— I am speaking only of my experience m these years-
parole is normally granted to Federal prisoners upon their completion
of a third of their sentence, if they have proved to the prison author-
ities that they are rehabilitated in their minds and have been good
prisoners. That, I say, is the normal procedure in my experience
The only prisoner sent away from this district who was not paroled
at the expiration of one-third of his sentence was William Johnson,
who was convicted in this court before I came in here, I believe m the
middle forties, for income-tax evasion. As I recall, the newspapers
wrote some matters about that. A third of his sentence expired at or
about the time this parole jury was in session. It is my personal
opinion that that had a great deal to do with his not being paroled
at that time. He has since been paroled, and only recently settled
with the Treasury Department on the taxes that they thought were
due on his income-tax return, which was not handled by my office.
Mr. Halley. Was the parole of these people recommended by the
iDi-osecuting attorney ? ,1^1
Mr Iverner. I do not know. You see, these defendants were in-
dicted and tried in the southern district of New York. I understand
that the judge at the time of the sentence advised by letter that these
men should not be considered for parole. I believe that the prosecu-
tor was Mr. Kostelanetz, and I don't recall whether he was even asked
for his recommendation. I don't know. , -r n -r, • 1
Mr. EoBiNSON. I believe he was, and both he and Judge Brighton
were rather violently opposed to it.
Mr Halley. Was the jurisdiction of your grand ]ury connected
Avith the parole, or with the visits to the prison under the assumed
name '
Mr.' Kerner. No; it was started to investigate the granting of the
paroles, but during the course of which we found out that Accardo and
Bernstein visited the penitentiary, and Accardo under the name of
Joseph Bulger.
188 ORGANIZED CRIME: IN INO-ERSTATE ClOMMERCE
Mr. Halley. Did your grand jury come after the congressional
investigation?
Mr. Kerner. As to jwint of time, I would say they were almost
simultaneous. I think the congressional liearings started maybe a few
days, maybe a week before, about that period of time.
Mr. Halley. Were you able to get statistics on whether the Parole
Board made a practice of granting paroles over the objection of the
trial judge and the prosecuting officer?
Mr. Keener. No. I have no experience in that whatsoever. I don't
know what tlieir practice is.
Mr. Halley. What did the two members of the Parole Board who
came before the grand jury have to say about it?
Mr. Kerner. One of them, Mr. Rogers, I think was the one who in-
terviewed these parolees. He had been assigned the circuit for that
parole hearing. He interviewed them and said he made his report
back. Mr. Monkiewicz, the other member of the Parole Board, did
not interview them, but sat in at the time the i)arole interviews were
considered by the three members of the Parole Board, Judge AVilson,
Mr. Rogers, and Mr. Monkiewicz. I believe he comes from Con-
necticut.
Mr. Halley. Did they conclude that the case for parole was suffi-
ciently strong that the decision of the judge and the district attorney
should be overlooked ? Is that what they testified ?
Mr. Kerner. I don't believe any such question was asked, in my
recollection. I did not sit in on all sessions of that grand jury, so
I can't be positive, but my recollection is that they were not asked^hat
question. But I did sit in while certain questions were asked as to
why the parole was granted; and a summary, just the sum and sub-
stance of their testimony, is that the interview, their prison record,
their parole programs were sufficiently good to merit their being
granted a parole.
Mr, Robinson. Weren't they interviewed by the Chairman of the
Board himself, Mr. Kerner?
Mr. Kerner. My recollection is not ; that Mr. Rogers interviewed
them. ■ I am not positive of that at this point, so much water has gone
over the dam since then, but my recollection is that Mr. Rogers inter-
viewed them.
Mr. Robinson. I think the Chairman interviewed them. There is a
transcript of his interview in the Holfman hearings.
Mr. Kerner. That may be so.
Mr. Halley. De Lucia testified, as I recall it, that Accardo visited
him about the tax case rather than about the parole. Does that jibe
v.ith the testimony before the grand jury?
Mr. Kerner. Yes. As I recall, De Lucia stated that Accardo knew
of certain of his lioldmgs, and was there to assist Mr. Bernstein and
De Lucia m the preparation of tax returns. I personally didn't believe
that, but I have nothing in my possession or reach to disprove it
Mr. Robinson. Didn't Mr. Bernstein testify that he had difficulty
in getting his questions across to De Lucia, and that Mr. Bulger rec-
ommended somebody to go down with him who could s])eak ftalian?
Mr. Kerner. Yes. During the trial of the case, Bernstein did
make the statement that he was unable to understand DeLucia's lan-
guage, his pronunciation, and that Mrs. Campagna got Mr. Accardo
to go down to act as an interpreter.
ORGANIZED CRIME. IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 189
But all the testimony of the guards in the trial of the case, and the
testimony of Bernstein himself, who took the stand in that case, was
that all tiie exchange of ideas or words was all in the English language ;
as a matter of fact, that while Mr. Bernstein was interviewing Mr.
DeLucia, Accardo was talking to Campagna; and when Bernstein
was interviewing Campagna, Accardo was conversing with DeLucia.
Mr. Halley. I wonder if probably the best thing to do would be for
the connnittee to apply for an order to get the grand jury minutes,
rather than putting you in the position of relying on your recollection.
Mr. Kerner. If you have any particular points, I see no reason why
I can't look at mj^' grand jury minutes to refresh my recollection so
that I can be certain of details. However, as to whether the grand
jury minutes can be released to the committee is a matter solely within
thediscretion of the Attorney General. By law, I cannot release them.
Mr. HALLEy . I believe even if he agrees, you must get a court order,
must you not ?
Mr. Kerner. There are decisions on that ; yes.
Mr. Hallet. Perhaps we can withhold judgment on that question
and work in cooperation on making a study of the grand jury minutes
ancl the record of the congressional investigation, and see if it opens
up any avenues which should be further pursued here.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. Halley. Getting back on the record, are there any other matters
pertaining to law enforcement that I think you would like to tell the
committee about at this time?
Mr. Kerner. The question of .narcotics is one which was raised
here todav. I have been informed unofficially by Mr. August, the
agent in charge of the Narcotic Bureau for the Midwest area, that the
use of heroin has increased 86 percent in the Chicago area. A year
ago last June— June of 1949— additional narcotics agents were brought
into this area and worked under cover June, July, and so forth, up
until December, the week end just before Christmas 1949, when the
zero hour was set and Sergeant Mangum of the narcotic detail, Chicago
Police Department, who works in close cooperation with the Narcotic
Bureau of the Treasury Department, with police officers went out
and made many arrests and pick-ups. That night, beginning on
Friday evening, by Saturday morning at around 8 or 9 or 10 o'clock,
we had picked up approximately 180 narcotic violators. The biggest
violator we picked up was a chap by the name of Filisho, who had
counterfeiting tie-ups as well as narcotic tie-ups. We are not naive
enough to believe that we are at the top in the narcotic situation, but
Filisho we believe is the biggest cog that we picked up in that raid.
There is no tie-up from our evidence with any of these hoodlums at
this point in the narcotic trade.
Mr. KoBiNSON. How did vou spell his name ?
Mr. Kerner. Filisho. He still has a case pending here in tins
court.
Mr. Robinson. AVHiat is the first name ?
Mr. Kerner. I don't recall his first name.
^.Iv. Robinson. Do you know him by Fogge or Ben ?
Mr. Kerner. I doii't know. These characters have so many names
and aliases that I would have to look in iny repoi-ts to detennine just
what familiar names are attributed to him.
Mr. Robinson. You don't know where he lives ?
190 ORGANIZED CRIME; IN INTERSTATE C03VIMERCE
]Mr. Kerner. Yes. He lived on the West Side in what was previ-
ously referred to as one of the river wai'ds on the West Side.
Mr. Robinson. Did the name of Isadore Levin come into that
narcotic situation?
Mr. Kerner. That sounds familiar. I have a complete list of them,
but I can look over it to determine it if you would like me to. because
we have them all listed, all those who were suspected and against
whom we had evidence and were trying to i)ick up. I have a complete
list on them, both by their true names and their familiar names and
their aliases. As a matter of fact, I see no reason why I can't get a
copy of that and just turn it over to you for whatever value it may be.
I prepared several such lists.
Mr. Halley. Where do you think we might find concrete activities
of this Capone syndicate today, bearing in mind of course that this
committee is not confined to law violations of either Federal or State
law. that this conunittee has the right to ask questions which a witness
might be entitled to refuse to answer at least before a State grand
jury, and that the committee has the right to jump over State lines
pretty broadly.
Mr. Kerner. After the little experience I have had with these
people I have certainly concluded in my own mind that, other than
these parolees who have of course a terrific lot hanging over their
heads if they refuse to answer your questions, that the only place you
might find evidence of it is among the hangers-on, the boys around
the fringe. It has been my experience that in the examination of
these people certain hangers-on who are not too smart give you pearls
that you can follow up. That is the way we found out the tie-up of,
for instance, Tony Gizzo in this picture.
Mr. Halley. Can you suggest any candidates? Or would you like
to look through j^our" files?
Mr. Iverner. No; I cannot. However, I can do this: There are
still several men in the office, several assistant United States attorneys
who were here at the time of the Johnson-Skidmore jury investiga-
tions and prosecutions. I will discuss it with them and see if they
have any certain names in mind. Of course in our grand jury hearing
we had people like Corngold, Heeney, who are practicallv passe. I
imagine, in this picture.
Mr. Halley. Isn't Heeney still running a joint?
Mr. Kerner. The last I knew of Heeney he was running a joint
with Corngold that previously had been run with Campagna on
Cermak Road out near Austin, I think 5800-something, I think a
bowling alley and a book. Heeney to me at the time appeared to be
a very sick man and fading away. As we saw him from month to
month we could practically see him fading away. I don't know what
his physical condition or mental condition is at the present time.
I haven't seen him since that time.
We also had Jones in before us, who had admittedly been a partner
of Hymie Levin and another name of a partner. Phil Katz, in a wire
service. They had their offices on State Street between Lake and
Randolph Streets somewhere.
Mr. Robinson. The R & H Publishing Co.
Mr. Kerner. That is right. And there is also an office on Lake
Street around the 600 block, where we traced certain telephone calls
ORGAKIZED CRIME. IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 191
tliat looked rather suspicious. These people were quite frank in
telling us what their business was, who their partners were, what
their wire business consisted of, where their wires went to, and what
they received in the way of rental for the service.
Mr. Halley. They didn't implicate, however, any of the Capone
syndicate members, did they?
Mr. Kerner. I am not quite certain exactly who you mean by tlie
Capone syndicate figures. If we are talking about the same thing,
the names that are mentioned in the newspapers, yes, Hymie Levin
is supposed to be in that crowd, Corngokl, Campagna, DeLucia, Gioe,
D'Andrea's name is listed among that group.
JNIr. Hallet. They say they have no business now at all, Gioe and
Campagna and Ricca. Are they supposed to be in this wire service?
Mr. Kerner. Xo. They w^ere never reputed to be in the wire
service. The only one who was tied up witli the wire service in any
way was at the end of a wire service, running a book in Cicero with
Heeney and Corngokl.
That was the end of the line so far as the wire service is concerned
because that was the place where they took bets and supposedly
paid off.
Mr. Hallet. Have you any questions?
Mr. RoBixsox. Along that line, Mr. Kerner, did you ever run into
anj'thing that indicated that instead of being interested solely in
Avhat came out the other end of the line, they were interested in con-
trolling the beginning of the line?
Mr. Keener. No; there was no indication from anything that we
found.
Campagna, of course, when he was in, freely admitted that he at one
time ran slot machines before he was tried and sentenced. As a mat-
ter of fact, investigations of his income-tax returns showed a return
of income from slot machines as well as the bookie establishment,
which is probably common knowledge to the committee by this time.
Mr. Robinson. Either on or off the record, would you care to com-
ment as to the extent of the cooperation or lack of cooperation be-
tween the local law-enforcement officials here, the sheriff's office, the
State's attorney's office, the commissioner of police's office ?
Mr. Keener. The only thing I know of, and this is on the record,
is of course what I read in the newspapers. I have no personal knowl-
edge whatsoever. I know at any time I have requested anything of
the Chicago Police Department, I have received their full coopera-
tion as well as from the State's attorney's office, as I say, the local
police. The only matter which I have had which directly affected the
sheriff was the turn-over of prisoners, which was a peculiar set of
circumstances in this Brinks murder case, and the sheriff was cooper-
ative with the Federal Government in that. But in any direct request
that I have had to any law-enforcing agenc}^ in this vicinity, we have
received their full cooperation, even to the degree of letting us have
records, confidential files, and things of that nature.
Mr. Robinson. I am not speaking so much of their cooperation with
you but of their cooperation among themselves.
Mr. Iverner. The only thing I know, as I said before, is what I
have read in the newspapers, which you have heard here today, of
the State's attorney writing letters to the sheriff and the sheriff writing
letters to the State's attorney. In my recollection, since I have been
192 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INiTERSTATE CiOMMERCE
an adult, I don't recall that there has been ever, shall I say, the fric-
tion between the sheriff's office and the State's office as there has
been in recent years, where the State's attorney has been required
to go out and actually do the sheriff's work.
Mr. Halley. Have you any views on the arithmetic of the situa-
tion which indicates that the sheriff did pick up something like 1,400
slot machines, and the State's attorney with the aid of 75 policemen
was able to pick up only 500 more, which of course is a substantial
number. The arithmetic doesn't seem to be too much of an indication
of the sheriff's falling down unless there are certain other factors.
Mr. Keener. Let me say this : It is my recollection that not many
slot machines were picked up by the sheriff's office until the newspaper?
began putting the heat on him, so to speak, and that the State's attor-
ney, of course, if we want to put it on an arithmetical basis, the State's
attorney has been doing it for a period, as I recall, of roughly a year
and a half. The sheriff has been in office for practically his full terra
of almost 4 years. Certainly in my time the State's attorney has not
been doing much of that. That always has been considered, in my
mind as a citizen and a lawyer, the sheriff's job rather than the State's
attorney's job. However, I am not familiar with the full details and
the full powers of each of the offices. I find that this office here rather
ties me up and keeps me busy.
Mr. Halley. I am sure it does.
Anything further? Mr. Cahn, do you have any questions?
Mr. Caiin. If I may, just a few brief questions following up Mr.
Robinson's.
Mr. Kerner, I am wondering — you heard the sheriff's comments to
the effect that there might be some merit in this idea of consolidation
of the forces, the sheriff's force, the State's attorney force, and so on.
Just speaking offhand, w^ould you say that there would also be merit
in that consolidation proposal ? Is there overlapping and duplication ?
Mr. Kerner. Yes; definitely. As a matter of fact, I am a member
of the criminal law committee of the Chicago Bar and Illinois Bar
Associations. That question has arisen there among us, but, of course,
we all feel rather helpless and hopeless until something is done about
our State constitution, because it wasn't until recently that within the
city of Chicago the parks were run by the State of Illinois. I have
forgotten how many different corporations there were wdthin the city
of Chicago ; in other words, a separate corporation for each park.
Those were consolidated only recently.
There is presently pending or will be pending before the voters of
the State of Illinois what is commonly called Gateway amendment,
which amended a law — by the way, I also am serving on that commit-
tee of the Chicago Bar Association, the constitutional amendment
committee, now called presently the Gateway committee — an amend-
ment to the Illinois Constitution which will allow three articles of
the constitution to be amended in any one legislative session. Under
our law here our legislature meets only in the odd years or once in 2
years, unless a special session is called, and, of course, there has to be
some crying, important, immediate need before a special session is
called by the Governor. You can appreciate that with Cook County
up here and even Lake County, north of us, considered in a down-
State bloc, there has been this friction in the State legislature that
prevents good legislation from being passed. I think just as soon as
ORGA^•IZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMJVIERCE 193
the voters agree that the Gateway amendment is a good thing and
then the voters join together to insist upon consolidation of forces, I
think law enforcement will be in a better state of repair than it is now.
There are too many overlapping jurisdictions and duties, m my
opinion.
Mr. Cahx. Would you also have some comments, Mr. Kerner, on
the subject of the patronage nature of the sheriff's office? Would you
concur in what the sheriff said about the importance of putting that
on a civil-service basis ?
Mv. Kerxer. I am not certain in my own mind that civil service is
the answer to all evil, frankly. I can see a lot of good in civil service.
I can see evil in it. I think it was demonstrated here today in the
police department. The mayor is frustrated in what he can do with
a captain he doesn't like or a captain in whom he does not have com-
plete confidence. I think that is one of the disadvantages of civil
service. However, I think a good public official is one who chooses
his personnel properly on the sole basis of "Is he the best person" or
"Is she the best woman to fill a vacancy in a certain job." I think
without civil service, you can get just as good if not better people in
the various jobs. Patronage, spoils of war, of course, has been one
of the costly items of our democracy, regardless of what party is m
power, and I think we all freely and honestly admit that. In my
office, for instance, approximately two-thirds of my staff is under
Federal civil service. All the attorneys in my office are appointees.
They are appointed by the Attorney General of the United States.
I think that the lawyers in my office are very able young men. They
are honest, thev are sincere, they are aggressive, and intelligent. I
have never heard any criticism against any of the people m my office.
They are not civil service. . tt • i
Of course, the reward for doing a good job as an assistant United
States attorney I admit is probablv greater than that of being a process
server in the sheriff's office, and I don't think you can compare one
against the other. But I can see advantages and disadvantages, and
I'^would say one of the major disadvantages is if an office is put under
civil service, I think you can bet your bottom dollar that all the people
who will qualify for civil service during that period of time will be
members of the party in power. I don't think any of us are naive
enough not to recognize that fact. . ■, -, ,
Mr. Cahn. Since your father is one of the distinguished members
of the bench of this area, I wonder if the judges of this area have
ever presented a formal recommendation for improving the admin-
istration of justice.
Mr. I^RNER. As a matter of fact, I think that is done constantly m
the Federal system because of the judicial conferences which are held
each year, and I think any of us who are familiar at all with the
Federal practice and the judiciary system knows that they constantly
are improving. I cite for example the improvement in the civil and
criminal rules, the passage of the new judiciary act, which was really
done in combination with lawyers who practice in the Federal juris-
diction, and the jndges. Yes; I think that conferences of that sort
always lend toward improvement and simplification.
Mr Caiin. Mr. Kerner, how does the Illinois area, the United
States attorney's office, differ from other areas? We presume of
course there is more crime, more violent crime, and so on, but I wonder
194 ORGANIZED CRIME; IN IXrTERSTATE COMMERCE
if you would state from your knowledge of the problems faced by
other United States attorneys, w^ierein your problems differ in degree
or in nature from theirs?
Mr. Kerner. Oh, I suppose if we were to make a comparison of
that— and this is just my opinion, and I have seen no figures and facts
on it. I draw my conclusion from conversations with other United
States attorneys visiting with tliem at the United States attorneys'
conference and the problems that thev raise at the conference. Our
problems are all relatively the same in the Federal jurisdiction. When
I say all I am speaking of course primarily of jurisdictions such as
New York, Philadelphia, San Francisco, Los Angeles, and large urban
areas. I thiiik our problems are rather similar. I realize, of course,
that in Texas they will probably have more immigration and naturali-
zation problems than we have here in Chicago. I realize that in San
Francisco or Los Angeles or New York they will have more immigra-
tion problems than 1 will. They will have^nore admiralty problems.
They may have smuggling problems, which of course don't confront
us here m the Chicago area, except on rare occasions. I don't believe
that they have any more or any less proportionately income taxes, mail
frauds, or other violations of Federal statutes.
Mr. Cahn. In connection with Mr. Robinson's comments on fric-
tions between the State's attorney's office and the sheriff's office, I
w^onder to what extent that might be due to the fact that the men are of
opposite political parties.
Mr. Keener. I don't know Sheriff Walsh very well. I have known
John Boyle, of course, since a young man. I would say I have known
John Boyle for 20 or 23 years. I have always had the highest regard
for Mr. Boyle, and I know little or nothing about Sheriff Walsh. I
don't know hoM^ much of this is a political fight, if at all. I don't
know how much is really based upon inefficiency, alleged inefficiency.
I don't know. I think if I make any comment it probably might be
an unfair comment to the sheriff.
Mr. Halley. Off the record.
(Off the record.)
Mr. Cahn. I have just one last question, and I want to thank Mr.
Ilalley for the opportunity of asking these questions in the first ]^lace
and thank you for your patience in answering them. You are a World
AVar II veteran with a very fine record. I was just wondering to what
extent members of the mob are of the newer generation, possibly World
War II veterans in some instances, or whether most of the strong-
arm men or the higher-ups don't perhaps represent the older genera-
tion, the between-wars men or immigrants, or just to what extent there
are young people today associated with the mob in high or low capaci-
ties. That is a general question that covers a lot of people, and the
mob IS a very general term. I was wondering if you might have some
comments on that.
Mr. Kerner. First, I might argue with you about my good war
record. I just happened to be in for a great many years. My per-
sonal experiences as United States attorney is that we find very little
difficulty with young men who have been in the services. The only
difficulty we have had with them in our office, I think, has been one
bank embezzlement case and the balance almost completely have been
fraud cases against the United States Government under the 52-20
ORGANIZED CROIE. IX INITERSTATE OOIVIMERCE 195
or the GI bill of rights, obtaining subsistence money and Avilfully
represented they weren't working.
As to the balance of your question, of course all these people we
haA-e been speaking of generally here are men who are in their late
forties, fifties, and sixties. They were young men during the prohi-
bition days Avhen the Capone group of course was very acti\'e. I
don't know the names of any relatively young men who you could
tie up in any way with these individuals about whom we have been
speaking. Surely I can go down the list of names and point out where
they have been in any out of trouble constantly, but I don't think
there is any tie-up whatsoever between those men and the men about
whom we are speaking. They are just young toughs, they are hold-up
men, they are strong-arm men, and I think perhaps on occasion they
brag they are a part of the Capone mob when as a matter of fact they
are too inexperienced, shall I say, and get into trouble so often that
I aan sure if there was a Capone mob they would have no part of
these individuals, because you take the people about whom we are
speaking, they live rather nice lives on the surface. Their homes are
well kept. Thev are quiet. They don't get into trouble.
In our invest"^ gation before the grand jury we obtained income-tax
returns of many of these people. We did not look at the income tax
of any person that we had before our grand jury who did not have
a very able auditor or certified public accountant to take care ot their
tax matters. Apparently they have learned the lesson of Al Capone
and are not going to get caught cheating Uncle Sam. In my own
mind I believe that perhaps they don't return all their income, but
I sav to you that I doubt that I can prove that they received any more
income than that that they returned on their income-tax return.
Otherwise, these people keep out of the way of the Federal Govern-
ment, generally speaking. . , ■ . i
JNIr. Cahn. Mr. Halley has been laying the historic basis for the
pvocont conditions of crime in the old prohibition days, and I think
that your answer serves to confirm the fact that the historic basis of
])resent crime is very important indeed, because we will find figures
who were small then who have since emerged. Fortunately, not too
many members, if any, of the younger generation have emerged thus
far in major positions in crime or for that matter, major positions.
^Ir Keener. I might say along that line, which may or may not be
of interest to the committee, that a year ago last month a crime pre-
vention council was formed here in the city of Chicago. The members
of that executive committee consist of the mayor, the law-enforcing
ao-ents in Cook County, and the Governor. It is surprising the eltect
and the progress it has made in 1 year's time. Of course it is an
ethereal type of thing. It is metaphysical. You cannot tell now nor
20 years from now will we be able to tell whether we did any good, it
any at all. But the purpose of that council is to go before young peo-
ple's o-roups such as we did last Friday at the Farragut School on the
Westl5ide, the area in which I was born and raised, and to point out to
these vonncr people the follv of thinking that because they are strong-
arm vouiK' kids getting into trouble, will lead them anywhere except to
a bad lot" That type of committee did not exist when I was a young
boy, and perhaps it is a step in the right direction, instead of just hav-
ing juvenile committees to chase boys and who after they get into
trSuble try to do something. The purpose of this group is to try to
196 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE ClOMMERCE
point out the way to these young people before they get into trouble.
In my experience in going around and watching these meetings, in
watching the young people, certainly at least for the time they are
m there they seem to be vitally interested and we do hope that we will
have some effect on the younger generation, and we hope we won't
have young people today who will be big mobsters and hoodlums 10,
15, 20, or 30 years from now.
Mr. Cahn. Thank you very much, Mr. Halley.
Mr. Halley. Anything else ?
Mr. KoBiNsoN. I have one final question, Mr. Kerner.
Would you care to make any observation to the stature or caliber
of the occupants of the local court, the local bench ?
Mr. Kerner. I think for the most part, most of the judges in our
local courts are good judges. There are some of course that I don't
think are very good and as a matter of fact I don't believe should be
sitting on the bench. But as long as you have elected judges and as
long as you have the swing from party to party, and you may have an
overwhelming victory, bad men are elected to the bench, yes. But
taking them as a whole, I would be willing to try a case before any
of them and I would have no question about their integrity what-
soever. I practiced in the local courts from 1934 until 1941 when I
went in the service and when I came back I again practiced before
them. For the most part I would say their integrity is above question.
Mr. Halley. Just two matters. Is there full cooperation between
the various Federal investigative agencies at this time?
]Mr. Kerner. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Could any further cooperation be implemented, or is
there real coordination at this stage ?
Mr. Kerner. There is real coordination. Any time we request any-
thing we get their full cooperation, I made it one of the precepts of the
operation of my office that all agency personnel will be treated with
respect and courtesy as soon as they come in the office.
Mr. Halley. Is there free exchange of information among the
various Federal agencies ?
Mr. Kerner. Yes, if requested. There can't be a free flow of infor-
mation every day, let me say, because that would probably so choke
us up that we couldn't take care of our primary dutv. As a matter
of fact, some time ago I think at the time of the organization of this
committee, we received a request from the Attorney General for the
United States attorneys to call in the various investigative agencies for
a conference. We had a list of names and asked whether they had any
information, factual or otherwise, in their files. That information was
turned over to us, which we then turned over to the Department of
Justice. As a matter of fact, they probably gave us more information
than could be useful to you. It perhaps becomes a burden. I find
them always free. The name Felisio came up. There is cooperation
between the Secret Service and the Narcotics Bureau as to Felisio. We
had another defendant here who was indicted under three different
sections of the law. One law was counterfeiting sugar stamps, coun-
terfeiting money, and what was the third one ? I have forgotten for
the moment. But they covered three different agencies, and there was
free interchange of information among them and in our office, also
in the preparation of the case and in the investigative reports.
Mr. Halley. Thank you.
(Discussion off the record.)
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 197
STATEMENT OF FREDERICK PRETZIE, JR., ADMINISTRATIVE
ASSISTANT, CHICAGO CRIME COMMISSION
Mr. Halley. Mr. Pretzie, you are associated Avith the Crime Com-
mission of Chicago ?
Mr. Pretzie. The Chicago Crime Commission, as achninistrative
assistant.
Mr. Halley. You had charge of the so-called crime commission bills
on criminal procedure?
j\Ir. Pretzie. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. During what session of the legislature of Illinois was
that ?
Mr. Pretzie. That was the last session in 1949. I wasn't too active
at the session before, in 1947.
JNIr. Halley. You have a file relating to your detailed observations
of the 1949 sessions ?
Mr. Pretzie. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. Did you complete this file contemporaneously with the
events? I have thumbed through the file and I note that you state
your specific reasons for believing that each specific member of both
the committee and the legislature voted as he did, is that correct ?
ISlr. Pretzie. Yes.
Mr. Halley. I note that you referred to certain offers of bribes to
you.
]Mr. Prktzie. No, they weren't made personally to me. The bribes
were made to members of the legislature.
Mr. Halley. Wasn't there at least a threat to you ?
Mr. Pretzie. Yes. I was threatened. It came about in this way.
I didn't consider that very seriously. During one of the recesses of
the legislature, as I was going up the aisle and Euzzino said, "How
much is the crime commission paying you to come down here to get
these bills passed ? "
I answered that the question was irrelevant, and put the question
as to why he inquired.
He said, "I just wonder if we can't pay you more than the crime
commission is paying you to keep you the hell away from here."
I said, "Any amount of money you fellows can offer me couldn't
keep me awav from here."
Then I had some other encounters ; one with a man who has since
withdrawn from the legislature. He was renominated and would have
been elected, but asked that his name be withdrawn, John D'Arco.
He said to me upon one occasion — and this was all designed to heckle,
rankle, and discredit me. I have been in the business a long time and
I am pretty thickskinned. He said, "I understand you are down here
offering the members of the house $500 to vote for these bills."
I told him of course that that was ridiculous, that we didn't operate
that way.
I said, "That is more than I can say for you when you call your
cohorts down here. We don't operate that way. You probably do."
Then on another occasion Mr. D'Arco encountered me as I was about
to enter the judiciary committee. Most of these fellows who sit in
the house who are under discussion now are huddled. Their seats
in the house are segregated more or less in a certain particular area
198 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
there. Here is Granata and here is Adducci, and Euzzino over here
Petrone is down oyer liere. D'Arco sits across the aisle, a short dis-
tance removed. Ihere is one other man wliose name I should recall—
Kmella— who sits along the same section of seats there
I had occasion to walk up the aisle during one of the recesses and
taJked to a certain man there, and some uncomplimentarv thiiio- was
said to me that I resented, and I replied in kind. We didn't acSiallv
come to blows at that time. It was a pretty heated discussion. I
said something to D'Arco that he didn't like, and a day or two later
as 1 was going into the judiciary committee he took occasion to collar
me and threatened to punch me in the nose. I told him I didn't think
that was the place to create a disturbance, that if we were down on the
street away from the committee hearings I might be able to give him
a contest but I didn't there, I didn't think that was the proper place
He said, ' You told me to do somethings" In other words, to put
It m the record, he said, "Ah, I ought to punch you in the nose."
I said, "What for ?"
He said, "You told me to kiss your ."
I said "You are mistaken. That wasn't the sentence I used I
told you to go jump in the lake."
So I said, "Just get your dago temper down. This is no place to
create a scene." And I pushed him awav and walked away from
him.
Mr. Halley. I gather there was a lot of acrimony.
Mr. Pretzie. I didn't know whether vou were'leading up to that
or not. '^
Mr. Halley. What I was leading up to was just this : In goino-
tiirough that written statement it appears to be in great detail and I
wondered whether you could state, in order to save time now, whether
the written statement is a record you made contemporaneou'slv of all
the events in detail.
Mr. Pretzie. That is right, that is right. Incidentally, as you will
observe by reading that, I dictated it. It was for the chairman of the
legislative committee, Mr. Thomas Mulroy, as a report to the commit-
tee, but it IS my report, my language, and I prepared it.
Mr. Halley. The facts' as stated in the report are true?
Mr. Pretzie. That is correct ; yes.
Mr. Hvlley. I think for the committee's record and for present
purposes the report will be accepted and speak for itself in view of
your testimony about it. So would vou therefore at this time state
the conclusions relating to the reasons why the bill was defeated oivino-
simply 111 conclusion form the blocs against it and their reasoris for
opposing it.
Mr. Pretzie. The reasons for opposing it is because they have a
close affinity I would say over the years, and association, some of these
members who constitute this West Side bloc, with members of the
Capone syndicate, many of whom I knew in my early days, havin,^
come from that particular area in which they were spawned. The
syndicate, it is my conclusion, had most to lose and probably would
be more amenable to these laws than the average individual," obscure
individual would, a minor offender, because the bills were designed
primarily of a nuclei of the representatives from the liver wardl^; is
for the extension of the grand jury and the immunity bill.
ORGANIZED CRIME. IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 199
Mr H\Li.r.Y. I leather that the bloc opposinoj the bill consisted
primarily of a nucfei of the representatives from the river wards ; is
that riaht?
:^Ir. Pketzu:. That is ri<j;ht. . , -. ,
JNlr. Hallfa'. They obtained the cooperation of a group of down-
State leoislators of both parties ; is that right ?
Mr Pretzie That is right, both Eepublicans and Democrats.
},Ii-.* IIalley. On V. Iiat basis was the trade made to get the support
of the down-State legislators? ., . . ^. ..-,
Mr Pretzie. There were several considerations m connection with
the trade For instance, there is a bloc of Negro legislators down
there The Negroes were interested in having enacted the fair-em-
ployment practices bill. So the Italian bloc, you must appreciate, m
their relationships and in their work, are bipartisan m this respex^t:
They don't respect anv party lines. I mean for the purpose of the
record one may be elected on the Democratic ticket and another may
be elected to the Republican ticket, but for their own selfish purposes
they combine and confederate and constitute a solid bloc. They will
make their deals and trades depending on what legislation they are
primarily interested in having enacted or what legislation they want
to have defeated. ,
]Mr H ALLEY I have noticed in your report you very carefully and
in oreat detail take it legislator by legislator and have given the rea-
soiS why he voted for or against the bill.
Mr. Pretzie. That is right. . . . , ,
Mv H\LLEY. So supplementing that, summarizing it, the only ques-
tion I am asking now is, in addition to the people who were willing to
trade in order to get suj^ix^rt for FEPC, which for one reason or an-
other they might have considered of more immediate importance, what
other support^'was marshaled and what trades were made to get it?
Mr. Pretzie. They made trades on the constitutional convention
bill tliat the administration, the Governor was very much interested in.
They held the balance of power in the house, this Italian bloc.
Mv Halley. The Governor didn't trade with him, did he?
I^Ir. Pretzie. No. He refused. They didn't approach him directly,
but indirectly he was approached in an attempt to make a deal with
him if he would sell himself out on the support of the crime commis-
sion bills they would sup])ort the constitutional convention resolution.
The Governor refused to become party to any such deal or overture.
Mr. Halley. Did members of the legislature make such a deal,
thou^^h, without the Governor's agreement? In other words, what I
am trying to find out is, how did they marshal enough votes to lick
this thing? . r. ^ i ^^^
Mr. Pretzie. You must appreciate this. Some of these men, like
Pete Granata, who has been down in the legislature for many years,
and Adduci, who has been down there several years, and Euzzmo who
has been down there several terms, have developed through the knack
of ingratiating themselves through the lavish expenditure of money
.and entertainment and favors that they are in a position to extend to
their colleagues in the legislature; and in connection with the trading
on certain bills with members of the legislature there are devious and
many ways in vdiich thev can gain support either for or against a
bill. " It has been said, and I think it is probably true, I would say, that
they control approximately 25 votes in that house.
200 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
]\Ir. Halley. Cun't you <;ive any more concrete statement of the
deals that were made to get the vote? It is detailed in the record
and if yon prefer to stand on your statement that is all right.
Mr. Pketzie. I am trying to refresh m^^ recollection now as I am
speaking. In many instances they ha\e api)roache(l membei-s of the
judiciary committee because it was quite apparent for the time that
there was a possibility we would be able to get these bills out of the
judiciary committee. One member of that committee who is now
dead, who was formerly chairman of the committee— and there is
another member of that committee who was the dean of the law
school here— told me that they know of members of the committee
who were actually threatened right in the judiciary committee by
these fellows,
I have gotten from other sources that I can't identify that they
had made oifers of money, and in cases— I know of one instance where
a threat was made, although this man was not a member of the judi-
ciary committee but was a member of the house. He had already
committed himself to support the crime commission bills, and when
he refused to yield— and I witnesses this myself in the lobby of the
hotel there. First they were in the cocktail lounge. The chairs were
pushed back and they almost came to blows. I was sitting at an-
other place in there M'ith some men. The words were loud and harsh
and the first thing I knew one of these men chased Adduci out in the
corridor and wanted to battle with him. The reason for that, I
learned from talking to this member of the legislature, was that they
threatened not only violence but that if he wouldn't change his mind
and vote against the crime commission bills, they were going to
defeat him up in his district ; if necessary they were going to spend
$25,000, and they did. He was candidate for reelection luid when
It came time for filing this last primary, petitions had to be filed with
the secretary of state, members of this bloc— I think Adduci was one
and there was a man who was spokesman for this grou]), Joe Porcaro
who IS a powerful west side politician. Republican incidentally, went
to the secretary of state's office and tried to get first billing" for an
op]3onent of this man. Fortunately he was there and he had a friend
111 the secretary's office and he got his rightful position on the ballot,
which was position No. 1.
There are other things which occurred in that particular district
which confirmed what this member had told me.
Mr. Halley. Perhaps we can helj) clarify the reasons by takino-
oiie vote that apparently occurred in the committee. You liad eio-lS
Democrats and seven Republicans voting in Avhat you characterize
as an attemjit to kill one of the bills. You say two were Cook Gountv
Democrats, Euzzino and Cronin.
Mr. Pretzie. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Why would Cronin vote wirh Euzzino?
Mr. Pretzie. Cronin felt in that case, with due res])ect to Mr.
Cronin, who afterward changed his vote — I am not sayino- this be-
cause he did— he felt at first that there was probably no^need for
Cronin had been assocnited here— incidentally he is" a member of
the license liquor appeal connnission. -He has been associated here
with a law firm, not recently but in years past and iDracticed almost
exclusively m the criminal courts, both State and Federal, and some
member of that firm had represpnted the Ca])onos iu some nf tlipir
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 201
conflicts with the law. He probably felt conscientiously — I am giv-
ing him the benefit of the doubt — but there was no need for extension
of the grand jur3^
Mr. Halley. Then yon have six down-State Democrats: Taylor
Boseman, Jeti'erson, Carver, and Shapiro. What would induce those
people to vote against the bills the Democrats introduced there ^
Mr. Pretzie. Shapiro afterwards changed and supported the bill.
Carver didn't. Taylor didn't. As a matter of fact, I could never
understand Taylor. He was cosponsor on two of the bills. He didn't
happen to be of this particular bill.
Mr. Halj^ey. This is the grand jury bill ; is that right?
Mr. Pretzie. That is right. Taylor is well reputed down in the
southern part of the State. He is an able lawyer. I don't know.
Mr. Halley. In all fairness could it be that perhaps a substantial
number of the people voting against the bills did it either quite sin-
cerely or for reasons that you just know nothing about ?
Mr. Pretzie. True. I would say that.
Mr. Halley. Is it your point, then, that the balance of power lay
in their bloc from the river wards and the people they were able to
nuike deals -with ?
Mr. Pretzie. That is right.
Mr. Halley. It wouldn't be jour point that they corrupted the en-
tire legislature?
Mr. Pretzie. Oh, none whatsoever. Xo; I wouldn't make that
statement.
Mr. Halley. Are there any other general conclusions you would
like to state for the record in addition to what is in your report, bear-
ing in mind that the report will be made a part of the committee's
record ?
Mr. Pretzie. Xo ; I think not, unless you want to go into the rea-
sons as to why the Italian bloc — I mean if you want me to chart their
early careers and associations with these men. On some of those
bills there possibly could have been some logical objections, but on
the two bills, with all the support that we received from the Governor,
the mayor, and the press and everything else, I can't conceive how
there could possibly be any logical argument or objection to those two
bills.
Mr. Halley. Despite the lateness of the hour I personally would
like to hear about the Italian bloc.
Mr. Robinson. That may be in some of the records.
Mr. Halley. Go right ahead.
Mr. Pretzie. In the Senate many of these men I have known for
many 3'cars
]N[r. Halley. Would you name them first, the men you are referring
to?
Mr. Pretzie. Senator Roland Libonate. who is a Democrat elected
from the seventeenth senatorial district which embraces the first ward.
He is a protege of Pete Fosco's. Roland Libonate in the last session
of the legislature was considered the Democratic whip. He spear-
headed the opposition to the crime commission bills. Three of these
bills passed the senate. Roland Libonate as you know — maybe you
don't know, and I had better tell you — formerly was elected as the
repi'esentative from that same district and was a member of one of
68958 — 51 --pt. 5 14
202 , ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
tlie most notorious ward oi-oanizations, tlien the twentieth ward, in
which JNIaury Eller was the committeeman.
Mr. KoKiNSON. What is that ward called?
Mr. Pketzie. It was called the "Bloody Twentieth.'' Some years
prior to that time — it has been redistricted over the years — it was
known as the "Bloody Twentieth." That ward gave us most of these
men that you referred to as members of the mob, except those who came
on here from the East and other points. That ward gave us men like
Antliony Volj)e, Mops Volpe, gave you Tony Accardo, gave you Jack
McGurn. It gives you this fellow Mooney Giancana. I would say
he is the j^oungest member of the mob. On the question propounded
to Otto Kerner, I was inclined to agree with him, but Mooney Gian-
cana is coming up and he is probably the youngest member of that
mob. He is the chauffeur and body guard for Tony Accardo. Frank
Rio, the late Frank Rio — he, incidentally, died a natural death — was
(me of the principal body guards of Al Capone at the time, with his
cousin Charlie Fichetti, Tony Accardo and some of these other fel-
lows who are now prominent, who are the big shots now in the mob
or syndicate. Some other notorious characters, such as Druggari and
Lake who are no longer active in mob circles, came out of that district.
I don't have all the names before me, I can probably identify some
others.
Libonate was a pretty close pal and associate of Al Capone. It is
a matter of public record that he fraternized with him and they were
seen together in public places. Libonate, I think, has never denied
the fact that he and Capone were bosom pals.
You had the spectacle of Jimmie Adduci, who before he was elected
to the legislature, coming from that same area just a short distance
away on the West Side, was an associate of Willie BiotT, Dago Law-
]'ence Mangano, who didn't meet a natural death but was machine-
gunned together with his bodyguard not too many years ago. Dago
Lawrence Mangano was considered the man in charge of vice for the
mob. In more recent years he went into the gambling business and had
a big gambling establishment up on the near North Side, around the
Bistro side, near Rush Street and Chicago Avenue.
Mr. Halley. Is he operating today?
Mr. Pretzie. No; he is dead and I don't think that spot is operat-
ing any more. But his activities are being carried on by members of
the mob. This man Mops Volpe, who doesn't figure so prominently
in the picture today, was one of the mob's principal lieutenants. He
was the overseer of the Cicero gambling operations not too many years
back and also the principal lieutenant in the conduct of dog tracks
when they had control of the Hawthorne Kennel Club and also the
Laramie Kennel Club.
I didn't come prepared for this. This is what occurs to me now.
I haven't given it too much thought.
Mr. Halley. That is all right. You go ahead. You can supple-
ment it and we hope you will.
Mr. Pretzie. You asked the question of Mr. Kerner, and you are
right, you have seen evidence down in Florida. The thing I can't
miderstand is why so many men in high places in public life refuse to
recognize that there is such a thing as a syndicate and a mob, that it
lives and that it breathes, and that it is here and is doing business here.
ORGAmZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 203
Unfortunately, the only time tliese men have been brought to justice
and paid the penalty is because Uncle Sam, through the medium ot the
income-tax law, was able to punish them where our local authorities
had always been ineffectiye. -n j;
It seems to me that over the years with the proper surveillance ot
any law-enforcement agency, with men of intelligence anc probably
not too much intelligence, they certainly could have established or
developed enough evidence to have made a case to bring these men to
the bar of justice in our State courts or in our criminal courts.
We as the crime commission, not too long ago when the county was
wide open, were able to find luxurious gambling emporiums of the type
they have down in Florida and the type that they operate in Las Vegas.
There were large gaming rooms with seven or eight roulette wheels,
half a dozen crap tables. ^ , c
^Ir. PIalley. Up to how long ago and where i ^^ ^ ^
Mr Pretzie Of course, we were responsible because we put the local
authorities on the spot. They couldn't help themselves. This one
address that Uv. Kerner referred to down there at Cicero and Austin
Avenue was Willie Heeney's and Corngold's. That was 591-i West
Cermak Road. 1 shouldn't be surprised but that they are still oper-
ating^ I haven't been up there. I haven't done anything on gambling
in recent years. Mr. Devereux has handled all that. They operated
a bio- spot and another place at 5937 Roosevelt Road, which was also
in dcero, that we know Corngold operated. We had those two places
after the local authorities either were unable or unwilling to take any
effective action. We had arranged to give the sheriff— it isn t this
present sheriff— an opportunity after apprising him ot the fact that
these places were in operation and going wide open with no pretense
of secrecy. The sheriff's lieutenant visited these two places and came
back with the report that they found a couple of scratch sheets and
made a vaid and booked a couple of men, the keepers of the handbook.
\s a matter of fact, it was a false and fraudulent report. We then
proceeded to enlist the aid of the State's attorney's police through the
State's attorney, who was then Courtney ; it wasn't Mr. Boyle. I was
on one raid and I directed the other raid, too. We knocked over both
of these places and confiscated considerable equipment, which ran into
roulette wheels which were then valued at about $1,200, and several
roulette wheels in both places and other gambling paraphernalia^
Shortly after that there was a place that we know that Rocco
Fischetti managed, whom we had identified through credible evi-
dence, witnesses, Rocco Fischetti was identified as the manager of The
Dome, which was out here on West Irving Park Road. We got the
same report from the sheriff in connection with that place, and we
went out there, and there must have been 350 people m the place,
elaborately furnished. We took seven or eight roulette wheels and
another batch of gambling paraphernalia out of there.
Mr. Halley. How recent was all of this?
Mr Prftzie. This was 1943 and 19-14. What I am leading up to is
this • It i« a result of that activity, to their amazement they couldn t
understand it. They felt secure in their belief. They had been going
along unmolested. "The men that we had stationed m the places at
the t'lme the raids were made had gotten comments from the various
l)atrons who said "This looks like the real McCoy. This has never
happened. There is something haywire here.''
204 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Because in times prior to that they were tipped off, the sheriff's
police are coming out or the State's attorney's police are coming out.
Give us two guys to make a pinch. Excuse the jargon. Maybe I
am getting a little off.
Mr. Halley. You are a little off track. We were talking about the
river ward bloc. You covered Libonate. You were going to tell us
who the rest of them were and their background.
Mr. Pretzit:. I think I gave you enough to show the connections of
Libonate.
Mr. Halley. I think so.
Mr. Pretzie. I think I gave you enough as far as Adducci was
concerned to show you the connections there. Incidentally, Libonate's
practice is practically all criminal.
Mr. Halley. Is he a lawyer?
Mr. Pretzie. Yes, he is a lawyer.
Mr. Robinson. Does he have a record, criminal record?
Mr. Pretzie. No, he doesn't have any criminal record. I think
he was arrested, as I recall, on the eve of election some 25 years ago
over on Halstead Street. I don't know whether the police booked him.
I doubt whether they booked him or not, but at that time there were
several characters who were members of the same organization.
Mr. Halley. What is Adducci 's politics?
Mr. Pretzie. He is a Republican.
Mr. Halley. What ward is he from?
Mr. Pretzie. He is from the twenty-seventh ward. He actually
runs that ward. While he is not the committeeman, he is the power-
house there. •
Mr. Halley. Who is the committeeman ?
Mr. Pretzie. I am not too sure. I think it is a fellow by the
name of Snyder. I can get it for you.
Mr. Halley. Who are some of the others in this river ward bloc?
Mr. Pretzie. Granata. Incidentally, Granata has a brother who
is an accountant. I can't recall his first name now. I think he has
done some work for some of these fellows.
Mr. Halley. What are Granata's politics ?
Mr. Pretzie. He is a Republican.
Mr. Halley. What ward is he from ?
Mr. Pretzie. He is from what would now be the first ward. It
was formerly the twentieth ward.
Mr. Halley. Have you any of the others in mind ?
Mr. Pretzie. Yes. Euzzino is a Democrat from the first ward.
Mr. Robinson. Porcaro?
Mr. Pretzie. Porcaro is committeeman from the twenty-sixth or
the twenty-eighth ward, I think possibly the twenty-sixth ward.
Porcaro is not a member of the legislature, but he was considered
the spokesman for this group. While he had no right to be upon
the floor, which will be reflected in the report, he was very active in
the sessions, while the house was in session, collaring the members.
As a matter of fact, the Daily News exposed his activities and he
was then holding a position in the county treasurer's office.
Mr. Halley. Who are the other members of this river ward bloc ?
Mr. Pretzie. James Rinella. He represents the first district. He
would also, since the redistricting, I think be part of the first ward
now.
O'RGAJSTIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 205
Mr. EoBiNSON. Did you cover Petrone?
Mr. Pretzie. No, I didivt. -
Mr. Halley. What is Rinella's politics ?
Mr. Pretzie. I think he is a Republican. I can give it to you. I
think he is a Republican, but I can check that.
Mr. Halley. Let's take Rinella, for instance. What are his con-
nections with the syndicate? Why did you consider that he votes
in a bloc ?
Mr. Pretzie. I will say because of his friendship. I don't say
that Pete Granata is definitely tied in with it. I know of no in-
stances where he was associated or fraternized personally with these
fellows, but because of the general atmosphere and the conditions
that prevailed over in that area for many, many years, he was re-
puted, and we have never been able to establish this, he was reputed
to be interested in the handbook not too many years ago over there,
but we weren't able to establish it.
Mr, Halley. This is Granata ?
Mr. Pretzie. G-r-a-n-a-t-a.
Mr. Halley. A^Hiat about Rinella ?
Mr. Pretzie. Rinella, so far as we know, has no criminal record.
Mr. Halley. Does he associate with mobsters ?
Mr. Pretzie. Yes, they are always associated together.
Mr. Halley. Who does he associate with, what individuals, do you
remember ?
Mr. Pretzie. I am speaking of his association — you mean the mem-
bers of the bloc, not the mob now.
Mr. Halley. How do you tie this bloc in with the mob? That is
what I don't understand. I thought that is what we were talking
about.
Mr. Pretzie. I have given you enough instances here already.
Mr. Halley. We know how they vote, but what do you know about
their associates? Do they visit at Fischetti's house? Do they eat
dinner with Accardo ?
Mr. Pretzie. I don't know that of my own knowledge ; no.
Mr. Halley. Have you any information about any of these so-
called river-ward blocs ?
Mr. Pretzie. No; I can't honestly say that I do. In recent years;
no, I can't.
Mr. Halley. How do we tie them in? You say that historically
they have always voted in a way that resulted in a criminaPs benefiting ;
is that right ?
]Mr. Pretzie. Yes ; that is correct.
Mr. Halley. Aside from that which of them can we say fraternized
and associated with known hoodlums (
Mr. Pretzie. If you ask me today I can only judge by this past
record. I can't say of my own knowledge toda3^
Mr. Halley. Which of them did in the past associate? How did
they come up in the world ?
Mr. Pretzie. Adducci, there isn't any secret about that. Adduce!
definitely was tied in with them.
Mr. Halley. How was he tied in.
Mr. Pretzie. Well, he was arresteU with some of these characters in
a gambling house, and he was arrested in connection with a vice in-
vestigation and if you check his arrest record, you will find that his
206 ORGANIZED CRIME' IN IN'TERSTATE COMMERCE
association goes back with these men over a period of years, maybe 20>
yeai'S.
Mr. Halley. So Adducci you can definitely say whether or not he
was convicted.
Mr, Pretzie. I don't think yon will find any conviction on him
either.
Mr. Halley. But at least he was found associating with the mobsters
in places that operated illegally 'i
Mr. Pretzie. That is right.
Mr. Hali^y. Can you say that about an}^ of the others ?
Mr. Pretzie. Libonate was seen with Al Capone.
Mr. Robinson. Isn't it true that Libonate has had his picture taken
with Al Capone ?
JNIr. Pretzie. He has had his picture taken. It is a matter of
public record. That is right. It is a matter of public record, too,
that Libonate was in the headquarters of this place on election night
wdien several of the members of the mob were there. I don't recall
their names now. I can refresh my recollection. But they were im-
portant. They were not too important. I think Murray Humphreys
may have been one of them in that particular raid. There were sev-
eral members of the mob. In connection with Petrone, that I spoke
of who was part of this Italian bloc, interceded for these men and
tried to get them released from the custody of the police.
Mr. Robinson. Does Libonate have a brother?
Mr. Pretzie. Yes; he has a brother, Eleodore, who is very active
in veterans' affairs. They are two different types of individuals en-
tirely. One fellow has never had any association or affiliation or any
business dealings or represented any of these fellows. Of course,
Libonate has represented a lot of them.
Mr. Halley, Would you say about Euzzino ?
Mr. Pretzie. Euzznino in connection with Tony Accardo's draft
status, I guess he was questioned, I don't know. Mr. Kerner m^iy have
overlooked that. He was questioned with reference to an affidavit
he acknowledged for Tony Accardo having to do with his draft
deferment,
Mr, Robinson. You say Libonate's brother has no connection.
There is no connection between the brothers ?
Mr. Pretzie. No; except that they are brothers; They are not
engaged in the law business together. They never did practice to-
gether. They travel in different circles, and they don't represent
the same type of clients.
Mr. Robinson. What does the brother do?
Mr. Pretzie. He is a lawyer, Eleodore,
Mr, Robinson. Is the brother employed in Washington?
Mr. Pretzie. You mean Libonate? I think there may be another
brother, but Eleodore is considered a pretty high-grade decent fellow.
Mr. Halley. What could you say about Porcaro ?
Mr. Pretzie. Porcaro always has been tied in. He has been a fixer
and front man for the hoodlum element. He has been tied in politics.
He got canned out of the State's attorney's office. I don't know how
he got in there at the time. I think Swanson was the State's at-
torney. I think he was responsible for those records. Our files,
I think, will show some other situations that don't speak very well of
Mr, Porcaro,
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 207
Mr. Hallet. Are there other members of this river ward bloc that
you haven't mentioned ^ . t ^.i • i
Mr Pketzie. This man D'Arco is out of the picture now. I think
we have established that at one time he was charged with robbery, al-
though he was acquitted.
Mr. Halley. Do you have anything else?
Mr. Pretzie. If I could refresh my recollection on some of these
thino^. I can go back. My assignment in recent years has been a little
different, but 1 could probably search my memory independent of any
records and maybe come up with something.
Mr. Robinson. Is this your own personal record ^
Mr. Pretzie. Yes.
Mr. Robinson. You have no duplicate of it ? ...
Mr. Pretzie. This is my personal record. There is an original of
that in the file. You are welcome to have that.
Mr. Caiin. I have a few brief questions. I will keep you just a
moment longer, if I may, Mr. Pretzie. I know you gentlemen have
been working hard and 'long into the night and have a full schedule
ahead, as I am sure you do.
For the sake of the record, Mr. Pretzie, since reference has been
made to an "Italian bloc," I am sure you would agree, as I am sure
the committee would, that these particular gentlemen, at least insofar
as their stand on these bills recommended by the crime commission and
by the bar association and so on, do not represent undoubtedly the posi-
tion of the Italian-American community of Chicago.
Mr. Pretzie. Not at all. I am Italian, incidentally. I may not
look it, out I am of Italian descent myself.
Mr. Caiin. I think that might be mentioned for the record m all
fairness to the patriotic Americans of Italian descent.
Mr. Pretzie. That is right.
Mr. Cahn. In the same way that we would do similarly for any
other group of whose members might inadvertently tarnish the name
of the over-all group.
I^Ir. Pretzie. As a matter of fact, I think these men are probably
a disgrace and maybe they would be disowned by the decent Italian-
Americans. Unfortunately they come from the type of wards where
you have a constituency that can*t be too independent and don't exer-
cise their franchise as freely as they do in other wards. In other
words, despite what newspapers and despite all propaganda, you can t
beat those fellows over in those wards. , , ■ j-
Mr. Cahn. I just wanted to bring that out because the chairman of
the committee aiid the chief counsel have been very, very fair m their
questioning. n ^i i
Mi: Pretzie. Some newspaper has used that phrase and they Have
carried it through, the "river blcc." It is referred to as the West Side
Italian bloc. It has stayed with them ever since.
Mr. Caiin. Of course you implied, as the committee implies, no in-
dication as to the patriotic and honest quality of the Italian-American
community of this area.
Mr. Pretzie. That is right.
Mr. Caiin. Just one other question then. Can you predict successor
for these more limited suggestions that the crime commission is going
to send up ? I think you said there are going to be two or three bills.
Mr. Pretzie. Two.
208 ORGANIZED CRIMEl IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Caiin". Have any conditions changed wliereby you would think
you might have improved chances in the forthcoming legislature as
against your previous results?
Mr. Pretzie. Yes. I feel that there is a better chance of passing
these two bills. We have introduced two instead of five, the two that
we think are of primary importance: the grand jury and innnunity
bills. I think it has been demonstrated by the vote of the electorate
in certain legislative districts. In other words, one member of the
house who undoubtedly was subjected and I am sure was subjected
to a lot of pressure on the part of the Italian bloc and voted with
them contrary to — incidentally this man that I had reference to
was a member of the house. He was mayor of Forest Park, a com-
munity in which there was considerable gambling, and in which there
were bad situations. It came to me, but I can't prove it. He was
just coerced. He got the support of this group in his reelection, and
the people in that particular area, it is not in the west side area, but
it takes in the entire county in which we have some very fine suburbs,
including bad towns like Cicero and Melrose Park, in which some of
these members of the mob live. He was opposed by a man who for-
merly sat in the legislature and made a good record, and he was
beaten solely, as we are able to determine, because of his alliance with
these men and his vote against the crime-commission bills. In certain
areas it has been reflected. We know that other members of the leg-
islature who voted for the crime-commission bills, there was a con-
certed attempt made to defeat them. There was some trading and
money, and gambling interests in certain areas have attempted to
defeat these men. That situation is true in, I would say, several
■districts.
Mr. Cahn. Thank you, Mr. Halley.
Mr. Halley. Thank you very much, Mr. Pretzie, for this very
valuable background information.
Mr. Pretzie. I will be glad to come back any time.
(Whereupon, at 8 p. m., the committee recessed until 9 a, m. the
iollowing day.)
INYESTIGATION OF ORGANIZED CEIME IN INTEESTATE
COMMEECE
FRIDAY, OCTOBER 6, 1950
United States Senate,
Special Committee To Investigate
Organized Crime in Interstate Commerce,
Chicago^ III.
EXECUTIVE session
The committee met, pursuant to recess, at 9 a. m., in room 267, United
States courthouse (Old Post Office Building), Chicago, 111., Senator
Estes Kefauver (chairman) presiding.
Present : Senator Kefauver.
Also present : Eudolph Halley, chief counsel ; George S. Kobinson^
associate counsel; George H. Wliite, Patrick M. Kiley, William C.
Garrett, and W. D. Amis, investigators ; and Julius Cahn, administra-
tive assistant to Senator Wiley. Otto Kerner, Jr., United States at-
torney. Northern District of Illinois ; Elmer Oltman, Intelligence Unit,
Bureau of Internal Revenue, Kansas City Division; and N. F. Oi*t-
werth, Internal Revenue agent, St. Louis Division. August S. Brown,
special agent. Treasury intelligence, Chicago, 111. Daniel P. Sullivan,
operating director, Crime Commission of Greater Miami ; and Walter
J. Devereux, chief investigator, Chicago Crime Commission, and con-
sultant to the committee.
The Chairman. The committee will come to order.
Governor Stevenson, will you hold up your hand. Do you solemnly
swear the testimony you will give this committee will be the whole
truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Governor Stevenson. I do.
TESTIMONY OF HON. ADLAI E. STEVENSON, GOVERNOE, STATE OF
ILLINOIS; ACCOMPANIED BY WILLIAM M. BLAIR, JR., ADMIN-
ISTRATIVE ASSISTANT, AND WILLIAM FLANAGAN, HEAD, DIVI-
SION OF REPORTS
The Chairman. I want the record to show that the committee is
delighted and honored to have with us the distinguished Governor of
the State of Illinois, Gov. Adlai E. Stevenson, who has shown great
energy and foresight in trying to get at and handle the problems of
crime, organized, and otherwise, in the State of Illinois. The com-
mittee has had an opportunity of examining and keeping in touch
with Governor Stevenson's work, and I can say without any equivo-
cation that he has shown the type of attitude and action toward getting.
209
210 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
at unlawful activities in the State of Illinois that should be very, very
encouraging to tlie good citizens of this State. In addition, the chair-
man had the opportunity of being with Governor Stevenson at the
criminal division of the American'Bar Association, where the Gover-
nor made an excellent speech which appeared in the Congressional
Record, which adds much dignity to your remarks. Governor.
We took the Governor somewhat by surprise. We invited the mayor
of Chicago and others to appear, and w^e were asked if we were going
to invite the Governor, and we said we would be delighted to have the
Governor come, and did invite him.
Governor Stevenson, would you tell us anything you think will
help the committee, both as to legislative masters and information
that you may have ?
Governor Stevenson. Mr. Chairman, I appreciate your kind I'e-
marks about what we have been doing in Illinois. I can briefly sum-
marize my experience with commercialized gambling, which is the
only direct experience I have had with organized crime in Illinois
since I have been Governor, somewhat as follows :
I took office in Januaiy 1949. At that time it was apparent from
general public information tliat the use of gambling devices such as
slot machines, roulette, craps, and things of that kind were com-
monplace in Illinois. There were also some large and notorious
handbooks operating. The distribution of the slot machine was very
extensive. By that, I don't mean to say that they operated only in
all of the counties, but in a good many.
Early in 1949 the situation in certain counties came forcibly to
our attention in Springfield due to delegations, usually from min-
isterial associations, who waited upon us or from com]>laints received
through the mails. After prolonged discussion of this matter and
what to do about it, we concluded — that is, the attorney general and I
concluded— that we should institute a rather consecutive and con-
tinuous series of interviews with local law^-enforcement officials —
I mean State's attorneys, sheriffs, and mayors — in communities where
gambling existed.
That process went on for quite some time. It still goes on. We
found it yielded some results, that in a good many counties, I would
say that demonstrably in 8 or 10, gambling which theretofore had
been prevalent was discontinued by local action following one or more
conferences in Springfield with local law-enforcement officials. We
were at great pains to make these conferences highly confidential so
that the local law-enforcement official would get the credit for having
discontinued gambling in his locality, which of course was the major
inducement for him to cooperate.
In many other counties, however, we found that gambling either
stopped temporarily and then was resumed after vaiying intervals
of anyw4iere fi*om 2 weeks to 2 months, or that in some places it never
stopped at all and that our importunities were unavailing.
During this interval I was in the process of reorganizing the Illinois
State police, which had theretofore been sponsored wholly politically,
and with thanks to the cooperation of the Illinois General Assembly
we got a bill enacted in June of 1949 that enabled us to put the Illinois
State police on a strictly merit basis. During the period of transition
from a political police force to a strictly professional police force
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 211
there were a great many discharges and replacements. The result is
that our police force was somewhat demoralized and was also very
undermanned. I didn't feel that during that interval it would be
proper or even wise to use the state police to supplement our moral
pressures on local law-enforcement officials to comply with the law.
However, by the winter of 1950 the police force had been virtually
reorganized, the work had been substantially completed, replacements
had been made. We recruited new men and had an opportunity to
give them 6 weeks of professional training in' our police schools, and
they had also had some opportunity to serve actually on the roads and
in the districts throughout the State.
So Ave concluded in the winter of this year that we were now m a
position to use the State police in those counties where the resistance
had been stubborn and where there had been no cooperation, where
law enforcement had broken down, if you please, and where the local
officials showed no disposition to do their duty. That we commenced
in May of 1950, first in Madison County on these two large notorious
handbooks, the Hyde Park and the 200 Club. Since then we have
been raiding continuously on the basis of preliminary investigations
in counties to determine the existence and the whereabouts of gam-
bling devices, with the result that I have some tabulations here.
Whether they are of any interest to the committee or not I don't know.
The Chairman. We would like very much to have them made a
part of the record, Governor, and you refer to any parts of it that you
wish.
Governor Stevenson. I will present this for the record, it merely
sets forth in detail what we have done through the use of the police.
This does not reflect what has been done in the way of direct nego-
tiation. . .
The Chairman. May I ask if it is a confidential matter or is it
public?
Governor STEVENSO^f. We will make it public. There is no reason
why it shouldn't be. It shows that we have raided 73 towns, 308
establishments, that we have seized and either destroyed or there are
currently pending applications for orders to destroy 700 gambling
devices, and 84 miscellaneous gambling devices. The total number
of police involved in these raids is 510. The total funds, money found
in them or seized in one way or another is $73,000.
(The documents referred to are identified as exhibit No. 26, and are
on file with the committee.)
Governor Stevenson. The result of all this, Mr. Chairman, is th'at
we think— I use the word "think" advisedly because I have no com-
parative statistics— that commercialized gambling in Illinois is at the
lowest ebb in many years. The collector of internal revenue for the
southern district of Illinois, which includes 73 counties, reports that
applications for Federal tax stamps for gambling devices has de-
clined more than 40 percent in 1 year, that is, August 1949 to August
1950. These machines, however, persist. Although, as I say, they
are rapidly disappearing in commercial establishments, they still per-
sist in clubs, service club posts, country clubs, private establishments
very generally. There has been a marked decline in those, but by no
means comparable to the decline in commercial establishments, tav-
erns, gambling joints.
212 ORGANIZED CRIME' IN "INTERSTATE COMMERCE
I don't have at hand the figures witli respect to applications for
Federal tax stamps in the northern collection district of Illinois, but
there I think the percentage is that the decline was roughly the same,
40 or 50 percent less in 1 year.
We think, in conclusion, Mr. Chairman, that these conferences
which as I say persist to this day' with local law-enforcement officials,
sometimes proffering them the assistance of local investigators to
help them to determine facts in their counties, and the use of this
instrumentality of the 'State police, has been exceedingly effective,
but I am talking wholly about commercialized gambling, no other
form of crime, and I am limiting what I have to say to the interval
in which we can demonstrably show what has been accomplished,
commencing in May 1950. As I say, before that period I think we
knocked out 8 or 10 counties which were bad ones, largely by the co-
operation of the local officials. This is expensive. It diverts a great
many men from other duties. We have in Illinois a State police au-
thorized by law of 500 people to patrol all the roads of the State, 400
miles long, from Cairo to Wisconsin. If you deduct administrative
personnel, radio operators, and so on, of 50, that gives 3^ou 450 men.
On an 8-hour-shift basis, that means that you haven't more than
about 17 working at any one time to patrol all the highways of the
largest primary highw^ays system in the United States, or 12,000 miles.
You can see that the diversion of this manpower from their statutory
duties to supplement local police enforcement is at the expense of a
proper highway patrol.
If I may say one more word. I am perfectly frank to say, as I have
publicly on several occasions, I don't like to see the State intervene in
matters of local law enforcement. I think it represents a breakdown,
not so much a crackdown as a breakdown of local law enforcement,
that it is wrong, that it is wrong in theory, and it is expensive and
inefficient in practice, but I see nothing ^Ise to do in circumstances such
as we have encountered, wdiere there has been a, prolonged breakdown
of local law enforcement. In that case I think people will dema,nd
and they will get the service of higher levels of government.
The CiiAiRMAisr. To what would you assign the reason for the break-
down of local law enforcement in the counties or communities where
you found that to exist ?
Governor Stevenson. One, the corruption of local law enforcement
officials, who profit from protection. Two, campaign contributions,
which is another form of corruption, I presume. Three, public indif-
ference, which I believe speaks for itself, the fact that the localities
themselves don't insist upon adequate performance of duty by local
officials. I think those in all their ramifications probably constitute
the principal explanation for it.
I must say that there are cases where local law enforcement officials
give evidence of sincerity and of confidence, but they are so inade-
quately staffed. States' attorneys who have no investigators in these
small towns, that I am somewhat sympathetic with the position that
they find themselves in.
The Chairman. Then in the final analysis your point 3 is really
the basic reason for most of the difficulty ; that is, public indifference,
or the lack of an aroused public.
Governor Stevenson. I think it is a very major contributing factor.
You will usually find in these communities where they have a long,
ORGAOTZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 213
persistent record of noneiiforcemeiit, that there is some public indica-
tion about it and some public concern about it, but it frequently repre-
sents the minority attitude. I don't want to be misunderstood there.
I think once the people fully appreciate what is going on m their
town, thev get aroused. For the most part, they are not fully appre-
ciative of what is going on in their counties. I can illustrate by
the case of Lake County, adjoining Chicago to the north, the county
in which I live. The eastern portion of that county along the shore
of Lake Michigan is inhabited by people who for the most part work
in Chicago and commute back and forth to Chicago. They have
little knowledge, awareness, or concern, apparently, as to conditions
that persist in the county to the west of them. It is that sort of
thing that I refer to. I don't say it in criticism. I say it more
in a^ense of frustration and disappointment of people who do not
have a proper interest in local government.
The Chairman. What part of gambling have your State enforce-
ment officers found to be syndicated or so-called big-time organized
activity? t • i t
Governor Stevenson. I wish I could answer that simply. 1 am
afraid I can't. Senator, for this reason: We are not equipped to
make elaborate investigations of personnel, individuals, connections,
and that sort of thing\ About all we can do is to go in and seize
the equipment and appear before the court and ask for an order of
destruction. Therefore, I don't think we can say with any cer-
tainty that we know too much about connection, syndicates, and so
on. I can- say, however, that I think we have some evidence, at least
by hearsay, of the existence of some— and don't hold me to this
figure— some 35 syndicates of various cities, whether it is, say, a local
dtstributor of slot machines or whether it is the local agency of a
much larger distributor. That material I don't have here, but I
would be^very glad to have the director of public safety or the
attorney general's office or someone appear again at your convenience
and o-ive you whatever we have or even preferably I would be delighted
to have a' representative of the committee come to Springfield and go
through our public safety department files.
The Chairman. That is very generous, but we would appreciate it
if you would have someone send us such information as you have on
that point. ^
( The information furnished is identified as exhibit No. 2i, and is on
file with the committee.)
The Chairman. Governor Stevenson, it is not our province to rec-
ommend for or against State or local legislation on its merits, but we
have been very much interested in the difficulty and I think perhaps
unsuccessful, although hardjight you made in the last legislature to
try to get some improvement in criminal procedure and grand- jury
proceedings and what not. In that connection would you describe
theoppositionandthe difficulty you had with it? .
Governor Stevenson. In anticipation of that question, Mr. Chair-
man, I have done no more than try to refresh my own recollection of
precisely what happened by reference to the legislative digest, which,
accounts for the fate of thebills sponsored by the Chicago Crime Com-
mission in the last session of the legislature. There were five of them
in all. Two of these bills never passed the Senate. They died m
214 ORGANIZED CRIME' IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
committee. Three of tliem passed the senate and went to the house.
In the case of two of them the house committee on the judiciary rec-
ommended that they do not pass and the bills were tabled in committee.
In the third, the grand jury bill, which was the one on which there
was a general concentration of effort to secure its passage, the house
judiciary committee recommended that the bill do not pass. On the
floor of the house there was a motion to nonconcur with the committee
report, and on the roll call in the house, June 1, 194:9, the bill was
tabled by a vote of 66 to 56.
I don't have tlie breakdown name by name of the vote in the liouse.
I can add only that this was a bitter contest. There were elements
in the legishiture which were opposed to these bills and have been
traditionally. I think you are all familiar with that. On the other
hand, there were many very conscientious people — perhaps I shouldn't
say man}'', but there were a number, and I recall talking to all of them
one by one personally — who voted against this grand jury bill, for rea-
sons that I cannot in any way associate with any desire to frustrate
criminal justice. They sprang from lawyers' convictions about proper
administration of justice. They sprang perhaps in part from a mis-
understanding of the use to which an extension of the term of the
grand jury in a county was put, the fears of political persecution and
things of that kind. There were many downstate members who voted
against this bill, people in no way connected with the Chicago crime
situation.
The Chairman. Is it fair to say, however, that there was srbstantial
opposition to the bill and to the other parts of the program flowing out
of what you believe to be a desire to protect certain criminal elements
or certain types of illegal activities?
Governor Stevenson. That is my surmise. Obviously I can't prove
that, but that is my surmise. I think that is generally conceded to
be true.
The Chairman. Was it the West Side senators from Chicago — is
that the section?
Mr. KoBiNsoN. The river wards.
Governor Stevenson. Both senators and members of the house who
were bitterly opposed to it. I must add there were others bitterly
opposed to it who were in no way identified with them.
The Chairman. Governor Stevenson, what province, if any, or what
additional activity do you think Congress might take on behalf of the
Federal (iovernment to supplement or to assist or in any way properly
to help State or local law-enforcement officers with their problem?
Governor Stevenson. Senator, in a preliminary way, because I
might have more considered views later on this, I think there are three
ways that occur to me, none of which isjny original thought. One is
of course to forbid the interstate shipment of gambling devices.
The Chairman. How would that help you here in Illinois ? Aren't
most of the coin machines made in the State of Illinois?
Governor Ste\tenson. They are. I think virtually all of them are
actually made in Chicago. It would help us in this respect, I thiidc
and hope : That if the business was confined wholly to the manufac-
ture of slot machines for Illinois, and if we had vigorous and con-
tinuous law enforcement in Illinois, you would dry up the market.
That is fairly obvious. I think it would help us in that respect.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 215
I also think that the interstate distribution by wire in any of its
forms of racing: news would tend to make opei'ation of horse parlors
and bookie joints less profitable and i^erhaps thus break the back of
that problem.
There is one other thing that I should like to add on which I don't
speak with any great degree of confidence. It has always seemed to
me anomolous and contradictory that tlie Federal Government should
issue tax stamps for oambling devices; in other words, that tlie Fed-
eral Government should tax Avhat the State of Illinois outlaws. I
believe I would recommend that the Federal Government repeal the
Federal tax on gambling devices on slot machines, et cetera, in States
where they are illegal. It makes for confusion, makes for a curious
moral confusion at the local level. People simply cannot understand
why the Federal Government licenses, as they put it — we know it isn't
a license, it is a tax — they call it a license, why it licenses a device and
we destroy it. That is a difficulty that I think could be remedied by
the repeal of the tax provision.
The Chairman. In States where they are illegal?
(xovernor Ste\-exson. Where they are illegal; yes. There is a cer-
tain inconsistency about that.
The Chairman. JNIayb? Mr. Kerner can help us out on this. Is there
a precedent for applying a tax provision to one State without applying
it to the Xation generally?
Mr. Kerner. I know of none.
The Chairman. Or some of your internal revenue people may help
us.
Mr. Kerner. As a matter of fact, a similar type of stamp tax is the
alcohol stamp, which is issuable of course in dry States as well as wet
States.
The Chairman. I think that is a problem that this committee should
cope with and go into. We have had that same complaint brought to
our attention many places, that it takes away the moral sting of having
these things if the Federal Government gives them some sanction by
taxing them.
Governor Stevenson. At least the people think it is a sanction,
whether it is or not.
Mr. Kerner. The advantage that I can see, Governor — it has been
used certainly extensively in the last few years, particularly in Cook
County and perhaps by the State — has been the publication of the
names of the individuals and the locations of the various slot ma-
chines, which has then been used as an address book, you might say,
for the local law enforcing authorities to investigate those locations
and find these slot machines and take them and destroy them.
Governor Stevenson. I would like to say there, in view of what the
United States attorney sa3^s, that we have had the utmost cooperation
from the collector of internal revenue in making available to us infor-
mation about tax stamp applications, which have given us the lead on
many locations ; and somewhat due to our initiative, I think, they have
started this practice of publication of these localities for the first time
in the history of Illinois in the last 6 months, continuous weekly publi-
cation of all applications for tax stamps. That has been a useful
thing which we would lose in the event you repealed the tax stamp.
The Chairman. I saw in some Chicajro paper some months ago
editorials indicating that the Internal Revenue Department ceased
216 ORGANIZED CRIME' IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
posting a list of slot macliine applications here in Cook County. I
spoke to Mr. Foley about it. I tliink that that decision was reversed,
wasn't it, Mr. Kerner?
Mr. Keener. I don't know exactly what took place, but I do recall
that I believe it was said that it would be withheld for a period of
time, his tabulation of those licenses, and he did later, I believe, around
the 1st of September or thereabouts, tabulate them for the newspapers.
In other words, there are not only gamblino; device licenses in that
section of the cashier's office, but apparently all other types of Federal
license stamps. It was just a temporary manpower shortage that
caused the refusal to give that information at that time.
Governor Stevenson. In the district situated in Springfield, Mr,
Chairman, they have issued the figures and the names from the start,
when we commenced this thing 6 months ago.
The Chairman. Do you have any difficulty. Governor Stevenson,
with the j^resent fugitive from justice law, that is, in certain types
of cases the Federal Government helps you get people back, in felonies,
I believe? Is there anything to the argument from your viewpoint
that the Fugitive From Justice Act should be extended and strength-
ened? Or has it worked to thwart an administration of justice in
Illinois?
Governor Stevenson. I am really not ]:>repared to connnent on
that. I just don't know. That has not been a problem that has come
to my attention.
The Chairman. Do you have any questions, Mr. Halley ?
Mr. Halley. No questions.
The Chairman. Mr. Robinson ?
Mr. Robinson. Yes, Mr. Chairman; I would like to ask the Gov-
ernor three or four questions.
Governor, did you experience any difficulty in connection with the
Hyde Park raid so far as the courts were concerned ?
Governor Ste\^nson. We are in the midst of a great deal of diffi-
culty I'ight now. It is important to distinguish between the two
establishments, the 200 Clul) and the Hyde Park Club. In one case
the operators plead guilty. There was no problem there, or relatively
little problem aside from delays and what not. In case of the other
one tliey didn't, and there we are now confronted with an opinion by
the count}^ court, the county judge of Madison County which finds
that the State of Illinois has no legal authority to use the State police
for gambling raids. He has construed very narrowly the statute
which recites the jurisdiction of the State jiolice, and he has refused
to order the destruction of the equipment seized in that raid or the
money. He has entered an order to the State to turn over the equip-
ment and the money to the operators. It presents us with some diffi-
culty because he doesn't define and doesn't indicate who the operators
are, so we don't know to whom to turn it over, just as an example of
what seems to me the incongruities in this decision.
In the second place, if he narrowly limits the jurisdiction of the
State police to crimes committed on the highways only, you can see
the implications. Does that mean that a State policeman can't pre-
vent a murder or a felony off the highway? It seems incredible.
In that case, however, we have already appeared before the judge
again to ask him to reconsider his order and to amplify it, and I have
ORGANIZED CRIME I^' INTERSTATE COMMERCE 217
no doubt that we will take an appeal from it and that ultimately we
\rill get a decision of the hijrhest tribunal in Illinois.
The details with respect to this tlnng are extensive, and I think it
you would like to have a more elaborate description of the legal pro-
ceedino-s down there I would have to provide it to you otherwise or ask
to be lieard again, or preferably I would suggest that those questions
be addressed to the attorney general.
Mr RoBixsoN. I was just interested m that one point, i had seen
some comment on it, that there had been some legal qiestion raised
about the authority of the State police under the law to do what they
did. , 11-
Governor Stevenson. You see, that was a bookie case.
The Chairman. Is that the case this fellow Moore ran, or is that
the Hyde Park Club? . „ , ..
Governor Ste%'enson. It was the Hyde Park, Moore s place.
Mr. Flanagan. Moore's was the Hyde Park.
Governor STE^-ENS0N. You see. Senator, if this opinion stands, we
can't even raid slot machines, let alone bookies, because the opinion
doesn't limit itself wholly to the type of devices seized pursuant to a
seai-ch warrant. In these two bookie cases it says categorically that
the State police have no right to interfere in matters of local law
enforcement.
The Chairman. Anvthing else. Mr. Robinson?
Mr. Robinson. I have one further question, Governor. You men-
tioned that there were perhaps a number of legislators who sincerely
voted against the grand jury bill. Do you know .whether or not those
same individuals voted against, I think you called it the provisions ot
the legislation seeking to change the constitution to provide a way for
amencling the constitution ?
Governor Stevenson. No. I am sure not all of them by any means.
There was a group of representatives from the city of Chicago who
were obviouslv more preoccupied with defeating the grand jury bill
than they were with the constitutional convention. I think that is
what vou are referring to.
Mr.*^ Robinson. That is true. , , i
Governor Stevenson. That was the trade that you have heard
mentioned from time to time?
What I was saying is that there were fellows who voted against
these bills in good conscience. I think thev were misguided and
wrono- but thev did. Thev were not people who by any remote chance
you TOukl identify with any syndicate representation or gambler
representation in the legislature.
Mr Robinson. Governor, has there come to your attention at all
any examples of influence of the so-called mob on State, county, or
local political organizations^ n. .1 . t i ^ .,.
Governor Stevenson. I can't say that myself, that I know ot any
connection between the mob and local political organizations.
Mr Robinson Bv wav of political contributions or otherwise.
Governor Stevenson. "I just don't know. It is entirely hearsay and
f suspicion on my part. I can't testify from any personal knowledge.
You do run into things that don't have perhaps any too much to with
bi- oro-anized syndicates in localities throughout Ilhnois where there
ha^. been a sort of bipai-tisan arrangement apparently tor years,
68958 — 51 — 1 c. '. 15
218 ORGANIZED CRIME' IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE
whereby one party elects the sheriff' and the other party the State's
attorney, and then when the people complain about non-law enforce-
ment they pass the buck back and forth and ])ut the people in a sort
of cross rut between the two parties, each on disclaiming any responsi-
bility for it and blaming the other. Then in the next election they
will reverse the tables, and a Democrat will become State's attorney
and a Republican sheriff', and vice versa. I don't identify that Avith
any major organization that may exist.
Mr. Robinson. It also has been indicated. Governor, that this
so-called syndicate through shady ward committeemen control several
thousand votes in Illinois. Do you have any comment to make on
tlnU ?
Governor Stevenson. None except the obvious one that if they are
as powerful as they appear to be, I would imagine they certainly did,
but I can't give you any information to prove anything of that kind.
It is just surmise. I would like to make it ]:)erfectly clear. Senator,
that in telling you what we have done I haven't gone into detail. We
have done a lot of things. We have been at pains to talk with the
telephone company and with the Western Union Co., to get their
cooperation. We have attempted to use the Liquor Control Act of
Illinois as device for enforcing the gambling laws. We have had
some bad luck on that. We are in court on that, as you can imagine.
We have attempted to withhold or to suspend the issuance of retail
liquor licenses in establishments which have condoned gambling, where
there have been actual raids, where it is demonstrable. The supreme
court has granted a writ of error, certiorari, or something or other,
and is going to review that matter.
The Chairman. We had some testimony that the matter of issuing
a liquor permit, either retail or wholesale, was purely a local matter
with the city police here in Chicago, for instance. I wondered if
the State did have some jurisdiction over these permits.
Governor Stevenson. The law in Illinois has been construed by the
lower court to be in effect that the State must issue a license to any
tavern that has been licensed by the city. We have taken the position
that, no; that would make the State's function meaningless and that
the State itself must review the qualifications of applicants. The ap-
pellate court reversed the lower court and now it is on appeal to the
State supreme court, but it won't be a satisfactory answer in that
particular case because it doesn't relate to gambling per se. We have
had a great many difficulties. We take the ])Osition that if we are
going to go into this thing, however reluctantly, we have to go in it
all the way. As I say, we have encountered this decision in Madison
County which challenges the whole problem of the State's constitu-
tional right to intervene, and we have also encountered this very
limited notion of what the powers of the State patrol are.
Mr. Robinson. In connection with activities to suppress slot ma-
chines, have you encountered any propaganda efforts on the part of
the manufacturers of slot machines or association of the manufac-
turers of slot machines to jilay up the fact that slot machines are used
by charitable organizations for charitable purposes and provide a
means for obtaining money for those purposes, and play down the
use of slot machines for outright gambling activities?
Governor Stevenson. No ; I haven't encountered that. I have had
no personal contact with the associations of the industry. I was under
ORGA^^IZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 219
the impression that they had been rather cooperative. I am afraid I
can't comment intelligently on that. It is a little vague to me. It is
just things I have heard.
Mr. Robinson. That is all.
The Chairman. Governor Stevenson, we are most grateful to you
for coming and giving us the benefit of your experienced recommenda-
tions. I know it has been quite a sacrifice.
(Off the record.)
FURTHER TESTIMONY OF PAUL DeLUCIA (PAUL RICCA), RIVER
FOREST. ILL.
The Chairman. Mr. DeLucia. you have been previously sworn in
this proceeding, and Mr. Robinson has some additional questions he
wants to ask you.
Mr. DeLucia. Before you start. Mr. Robinson, I received a letter
the other day about me bringing some more checks. I tried to see you
yesterday, and I want to explain. I haven't got them checks. That
was from away back.
Mr. Robinson. I see.
I think you previously testified regarding the fact that you had im.
cash the sum of $300,000 before you went into the penitentiary.
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Robinson. And that you had that sum, of course, when j'oii
came out.
Mr. DeLucia. That is right.
Mr. Robinson. Was that the total amount that you had?
Mr. DeLucia. I had about that much; yes. I give it the best I
could.
Mr. Robinson. What have you done with that $300,000 since you
came out of the penitentiary ?
]VIr. DeLucia. I used it on my farm, for living, and that is all.
Mr. Robinson. How much of it do you have left at the present time?
Mr. DeLucia. I told you I had about $40,000 left.
Mr. Robinson. $40,000 left out of the $300,000.
Mr. DeLucia. That is right.
Mr. Robinson. What is the purpose of putting that back into the
farm?
Mr. DeLucia. Well. I can't get in no business. When I come out
1 coidd do nothing. I had the farm, so I figured the farm was in-
terrible shape and I had to do all that building and all that.
]Mr. Robinson. Is there any other reason ?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Robinson. Did you make some saving on your income tax in
that respect, by putting your capital back into the farm?
Mr. DeLucia. I suppose the bookkeeper can tell you better that. It
is a capital investment.
j\Ir. Robinson. I believe you also testified previously, Mr. DeLucia^
that you had made several loans since you came out of the penitentiary-
Mr. DeLucia. Yes; two loans.
jVIr. Robinson. Do you remember when the first one was?
]Mr. DeLucia. I think the first one was around 1948. I am not sure
about 1048.
220 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Robinson. Did you receive a loan from Mr. Bennett?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes, sir.
Mr. Robinson. When, to the best of your recollection ?
Mr. DeLucia, To the best of my recollection it was around the
spring or a little later than the spring, something around that.
Mr. Robinson. Do you remember how long it was after you came
out of the penitentiary that you made that loan?
Mr. DeLucia. I would say about a year, anyway.
Mr. Robinson. A year after you came out ?
Mr. DeLucia. Something like that, maybe less or more.
Mr. Robinson. Will you tell what the circumstances were ?
Mr. DeLucia. I told you, Mr. Robinson, I figured I had to spend a
lot of money there. I made my plans to improve the farm to the best
I could do it, and I said with this money I got, I always try to keep
some cash on hand, and I tried to borrow some money on my house or
something so I have some money to play with.
Mr. Robinson. Why did you pick Mr. Bennett ?
Mr. DeLucia. Because Bennett — I couldn't go to no bank. Nobody
would borrow me any money on my reputation and all that, so I
scratched my head and said, "Oh, gee." I knew Bennett was working
at the track, and I said, "Maybe he can help me." I called him, and
that is all.
Mr. Robinson. Hadn't you got even loans from banks or insurance
companies ?
Mr. DeLucia. $11,000 worth. I went to the bank where I was deal-
ing, and I asked them if I could get more money, and I brought my
insurance policy, securities and this and that. I couldn't get a penny.
He said, "No, you have to bring collateral or else you get nothing."
So I had to get all my bonds, the bonds I had and put them in escrow
to them and I got dollar for dollar. That is the chance the bank took.
So that is all I got. I talked to Bennett and I explained my situation,
and lie said I will try to do the best I can.
Mr. Robinson. When did you first get in touch with Bennett ?
Mr. DeLucia. I don't remember. It was somewhere around that
time. I was looking out for myself ahead, Mr. Robinson. He said "I
will let you know." Then later on I called and he said, "Any time you
want it."
Mr. Robinson. Did you see him personally or call him by telephone
first?
Mr. DeLucia. I called him by phone first.
Mr. Robinson. You asked him then for the loan ?
Mr. DeLucia. I called him and wanted to see him. He came over
to the house and I talked to him,
Mr. Robinson. How long have you known Bennett ?
Mr. DeLucia. I have known Bennett for a long time. I laiew him
when he was a kid.
Mr. Robinson. How many times had you seen him while you were
in the penitentiaiy ?
Mr. DeLucia. I never saw him in the penitentiary.
Mr. Robinson. Did he ever write to you in the penitentiary ?
Mr. DeLucia. No, sir.
Mr. Robinson. How many times did you see him before you went
into the penitentiary ?
ORGA^^^ZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 221
Mr. DeLucia. I asked him about the track or something like that.
I used to see him sometime with the family or somethuig like that.
Mr. Robinson. How frequently would that be ?
:Mr. DeLucia. Oh, you have got me on something I wouldn't know,
not so much, but quite"^ a few times.
Mr. Robinson. Would it be four or five times a year '.
Mr. DeLucia. I would say so, yes.
Mr. Robinson. Not more than that ?
Mr. DeLucia. Well, maj'be more or less.
Mr. Robinson. Did you know Bennett's father?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes, very well. I know his brother.
Mr. Robinson. AAliat business is his father in ?
Mr. DeLucia. His father was a painter, as much as I know.
Mr. Robinson. By painter you mean
Mr. DeLucia. He was an amateur painter, or something, but here
is what it is : The real story is that he used to be, when I used to work
in the theater, when first I came over here, he used to take part m the
Italian show there. He used to play parts. He would take part m
the show. That is how I know him.
Mr. Hallet. ^Yhs^t is Bennett "s right name?
Mr. DeLucia. Benvenuti.
Mr. Robinson. How was the first loan made?
Mr. DeLucia. I don't remember, ]\Ir. Robinson. I think the first
one I got $10,000. Then I got the rest.
Mr. Robinson. How did you get the rest?
Mr. DeLucia. I don't remember if I got checks or cash.
Mr. Robinson. Do you recall whether or not you got a check first
from Bennett? ^ ^ ^ ^ ^..^n ^.^^
Mr. DeLucia. Yes, I got the first check and then I got $30,000
check, I think, all by check.
Mr. Robinson. You definitely remember whether you got the second
check of $30,000 from Bennett?
Mr. DeLucia. I am pretty sure. Don't hold me to that, lou
know, Mr. Robinson, I try to tell you the best of my recollection, and
1 think that is what it is. Don't hold me to it because lot of things
happen to me and my mind at times gets hazy on this stuff.
Mr. Robinson. You know how you would get a $30,000 loan.
Mr. DeLucia. I think I cot a check both times.
Mr. Robinson. Did you at any time get cash as part of that $30,000 i
Mr. DeLucia. No ; I don't think so.
Mr. Robinson. Would you say you didn't ?
Mr. DeLucia. I wouldn't say that, but I am pretty sure 1 got
checks. I deposited it in the bank. ■ x, i « i.
Mr. Robinson. Was there a mortgage that went with that nrst
$40,000 loan?
Mr. DeLucia. That is right.
Mr. Robinson. On what property.
Mr. DeLucia. On Long Beach. I told them, I said, "I am going
to sell this." I had a prospect for sale. They came around, t irst
they sav they do and then when we tried to close the deal they backed
down. "^ I have a few prospects now to sell. As soon as I sell I gave
him the money.
Mr. Robinson. Did you actually give a mortgage on that property i
Mr. DeLucia. Why certainly.
222 ORGANIZED CRIME' IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Robinson. Do you remember what the terms of the note were?
Mr. DeLucia. I think the mortgage was around 4 or 5 percent. I
don't know, 4 or 5 percent interest, something like that.
Mr. Robinson. Was there any due date on the mortgage?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes ; 5 years. I figured in 5 years I would sell.
Mr. Robinson. You have paid no interest on that mortgage?
Mr. DeLucia. No, sir.
Mr. Robinson. Was that part of the arrangement?
Mr. DeLucia. I don't know. ]\Iy understanding was that I was
going to pay the whole thing. You see, the idea was that I was going
to sell the house.
Mr. Robinson. How did you receive the second loan ?
Mr. DeLucia. The second loan I got a check — I met him at the
Cicero bank and I think the check was cashed over there.
Mr. Robinson. Was the check made out to you ?
Mr. DeLucia. To me; yes.
Mr. Robinson. And was cashed at the Cicero bank ?
Mr. DeLucia. I don't remember the name of the bank, a Cicero
bank.
Mr. Robinson. What did you do with that money?
Mr. DeLucia. I kept it myself and I used it.
Mr. Robinson. Diet you put any of that money in the bank ?
Mr. DeLucia. Why certainly, whatever money I had left. Until
I needed some money for the family I put it in the bank.
Mr. Robinson. Do you have any records to show that ?
Mr. DeLucia. You have the bank records.
Mr. Robinson. Do you know whether that $40,000 loan, the second
one, was entered in your books or not ?
Mr. DeLucia. I think so. I think it was entered in my books.
Mr. Robinson. Who keeps your books ?
Mr. DeLucia. Bernstein. You have the books there.
Mr. Robinson. Do you remember telling him to enter that in the
books?
Mr. DeLucia. Certainly he put it in the books ; yes.
Mr. H alley. While we are on that second loan, did you give a note
for it ? Did you sign a note ?
Mr. DeLucia. 1 gave him the deed to the farm and all that.
Mr. Halley. You didn't sign the deeds over, did you ?
Mr. DeLucia. No. This lawyer got all that stuff.
Mr. Halley. Wliat is the lawyer's name ?
Mr. DeLucia. Joe Butler.
The Chairman. Where is he ?
Mr. DeLucia. He is at 105 Adams Street.
Mr. Halley. Why did you need the second loan ?
Mr. DeLucia. Because I was getting pretty close. I needed some
more money. As I told you, I always like to keep some money on hand.
Mr. Halley. You made the first loan when, how soon after you came
out of prison ?
Mr. DeLucia. I think about a year or shortly after that.
Mr. Halley. How long after that did you make the second loan ?
Mr. DeLucia. This year, somewhere in the summer, the early part
of the summer.
INIr. Halley. Just a few months ago ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
ORGAMZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 223
Mr. Halley. You borrowed a second $40,000 ?
Mr. DeLucia. That is right.
Mr. Halley. You say the reason is that you were getting short
of cash ?
Mr DeLucia. Yes.
]\Ir. Halley. You received a check from Bennett?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes. I signed it at the bank and I got cash.
Mr. Halley. Did you go to the bank with Bennett?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Halley. His bank?
:Mr. DeLucia. Some bank in Cicero. I don't know if it was his bank
or not.
Mr. Halley. What bank?
Mr. DeLucia. I think it was the Cicero State Bank or something
like that.
Mr. Halley. You signed the back of the check ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes, that is right.
Mr. Halley. You testified some time ago that you still had $30,000
or $40,000 left of your own money.
Mr. DeLucia. Now, yes.
Mr. Halley. Is that in addition to the $40,000 ?
Mr. DeLucia. No, all included.
Mr. Halley. So that right now is it your testimony that you are
broke except for the money you borrowed from Bennett ?
Mr. DeLucia. No, I ain't broke. I got about $40,000.
Mr. Halley. You have about $40,000.
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Halley. But you say you got $40,000 from Bemiett a fevs
months ago?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Is the $40,000 you have in addition to what you got
from Bennett ?
Mr. DeLucia. No, I mixed all I had. When I got the money I
mixed it with some money I had in the bank.
Mr. Halley. So right now you have
Mr. DeLucia. $40,000. It would be a little less now.
Mr. Halley. That $40,000 is what you owe Bennett, is that right?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Also you owe him another $40,000 on the mortgage ?
Mr. DeLucia. That is right.
Mr. Halley. When are you supposed to pay the second $40,000
back ?
Mr. DeLucia. I think it is about 5 years.
Mr. Halley. In about 5 years ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Did you give him something in writing?
Mr. DeLucia. They got my deeds and all that stuff for the farm,
whatever it is.
Mr. Halley. Did you write something on the back of the deed ?
Mr. DeLucia. No', I don't remember writing anything.
Mr. Halley. You didn't write anything ?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Halley. Did you write anything on the front of the deed?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Halley. You just handed it to him ?
224 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. DeLucia. I just handed him the deed, that is all.
Mr. Halmy. You could ^et your deeds back. That doesn't mean
anything, does it, handin<r a man a deed.
Mr. DeLucia. I understand the lawyer to say it was all right.
Whatever kind of deal it was, I don't know. Those things are done
by a lawyer. I don't know about that.
Mr. Halley. You didn't even give Bennett a note?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Halley. How did you approach him for the second $40,000?
Will you tell the committee just what happened ?
Mr. DeLucia. I called him again and I said, 'T need a little more
money here. I tried to get money from the Metropolitan, I tried
to get money from the Oak Park and I tried to get money from the
Prudential because I figured maybe I could make a mortgage there,
and they all turned me clown."
I said, "Hugh, I am in the same predicament," and asked him if
he would help me out and he said he would.
Mr. Halley. Did you go to see him ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes. He came over to the house.
Mr. Halley. About when did he come, would you say ?
Mr. DeLucia. I don't remember that, Mr. Halley.
Mr. Halley. Was it summertime ?
Mr. DeLucia. How can you remember that ?
Mr. Halley. It is a very important thing to remember, so let's
try hard?
Mr. DeLucia. He come over to the house and I told him, see?
Mr. Halley. Was it in May, June
Mr. DeLucia. It was around there. It was shortly before I got the
mortgage.
Mr. Halley. Shortly before you got the mortgage.
Mr. DeLucia. Yes. He said give me the paper and I will have a
lawyer work on it.
Mr, Halley. We are not talking about the mortgage. We are
talking about the second loan.
JNIr. DeLucia. That is right, yes.
Mr. Halley. There was no mortgage on the second loan?
Mr. DeLucia. They have got it, the lawyer. I don't know. It is
at the bank or some place.
Mr. Halley. I thought 3^ou said that the mortgage was on the first
loan.
Mr. DeLucia. A mortgage on the farm, too, on the second loan.
Mr. Halley. You made out a second mortgage ?
Mr, DeLucia. That is right.
Mr. Halley. I thought you said you didn't sign any papers.
Mr. DeLucia. I didn't sign any papers. I don't remember signing
any papers. If I signed any I don't know.
Mr. Halley. How coulcl you give a mortgage without signing a
paper?
Mr. DeLucia. Because my property is in trust with the Oak Park
National Bank, and I told them that and they went over to the bank
there and they made it.
Mr. Halley. You mean they got a mortgage from the Oak Park
Bank?
Mr. DeLucia. I suppose ; yes. That is how they worked it.
O'RGAJ^IZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 225
^\r H\LLEY What lawyer represented you in the transaction?
Mr.' S.^uciA. I didn't have a' hxwyer. The Oak Park Bank is my
trustee, you see. • ., ^ o
Mr. Halley. What kind of trust is tliat ?
Mr. DeLucia. I put all my property in trust.
Mr. Halley. Wlien did you do that?
Mr DeLucia. I did that I think about a year or so after I came out.
Mr. Halley. Is it a trust of which you are the beneticiary i
Mr. DeLucia. No ; my kids and my wife. c • • 9
Mr. Halley. Your kids and your wife are the benehciaries i
Mr. DeLucia. That is right. . ^ , • ^^ ^ ^
Mr. Halley. The Oak Park National Bank is the trustee.
Mr. DeLucia. The trustee; yes. n . .i noV Pnr^V
Mr H\LLEY. With whom do you deal personally at the Oak rarK
Bank? AVlio is the man who takes care of your matters^
Mr DeLucia. I don't know who it is. I think the fellow who did
that for me was Joe Bulger. I think one of the fellows was Tomasco
and Spring.
Mr. Halley. Joe Bulger? -, ,, , ^ j-
Mr DeLucl\. Joe Bulger is the one that made the trust tor nie.
Mr. Halley. He made the trust for you. I thought you said he was
Bennett's lawyer. , . -n, ^.i.? i
Mr. DeLucia. No. That is Butler who is Bennett s lawyer.
Mr. Halley. And youi^ is Bulger?
Mr. DeLucia. Bulger, Joseph Bulger. You know him.
Mr. Halley. Is Bulger the man who used to be the head ot the
Italian- American League ?
Mr. DeLucl\. Yes, sir; in fact, he is now.
Mr. Halley. xind he is your lawyer? ' ,. xr ^ i
Mr. DeLucia. That is right. He was on that thing. He took care
of it.
Mr. Halley. He made the trust lor you.
Mr. DeLucia That is right. A^ a -^9
Mr H\LLEY. Wlio are the people at the bank who handled iti
Mr DeLucia. I think either Mr. Spring or Mr. Tomasco.
Mr. Hai^ey. Was the trust an irrevocable trust, do you know i
Mr! DeLucl\. I don't know that.
Mr. Halley. But it was a trust for your children and your wile i
Mr. DeLucia. That is right. ^ .1 i n ■ ■
Mr. Ha-lley. And not for you? Are you one of the beneficiaries,
^Mr. DeLucia. I don't know. My understanding is that it is me
and my wife and the kids.
Mr. 'Halley. This trust?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes, that is right.
Mr. Halley. Then you needed $40,000 yourself.
Mr. DeLucia. That is right.
Mr Halley. And your trustee borrowed $40,000 tor you.
Mr." DeLucl\. That is the way I understand, yes.
Mr. Halley. And the trustee agreed to give you a mortgage?
Mr DeLucia. I suppose. Don't hold me on that technicality, Mr.
Halley I am green on that. I told you what happened, and that is
all there is. If you go into those details, I will give you an answer,
I want to give you an answer that makes sense.
226 ORGANIZED CRIME' IX INiTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr Halijsy. The technicalities may prove to be important and we
have to get them.
Mr. DeLucia. I am sure I can't give yon a better answer than that.
Mr. Halley. Yon give the best answers you can.
Mr. DeLucia. That is the best I can give you.
Mr. Hali^ey. You needed $40,000 for yourself, is that right?
Mr. DeLucia. That is right.
Mr. Halley. For what purpose?
Mr. DeLucia. For the farm, for living.
Mr. Halley. For living.
Mr. DeLucia. Why, sure, for my farm and for my expenses on my
larm and for my living. -' i j
Mr. Halley. At that time how much money did you have left?
Mr. DeLucia. Jesus, I wouldn't know, Mr. Halley. I was gettino-
pretty low. & &
Mr. Halley. We can figure it out very easily. You testified—
Don t look troubled by this. This is very important and I would
like your cooperation.
Mr. DeLucia. I try to give you all I can. I don't know how much
money I had. I don't know how much I had left. I know it
was getting pretty low, you see, Mr. Halley, but I can't give you the
number, I can't.
Mr. Halley. You had a bank account, didn't you ?
Mr. DeLucia. That is right.
Mr. Halley. In what bank ?
Mr. DeLucia. Northern Trust.
Mr. Halley. In Chicago ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Halley. That is the bank account out of which vou handled
all the expenses for the farm ?
Mr. DeLucia. That is right.
Mr. Halley. And your living expenses ?
Mr. DeLucia. Well, some w\as cash, you see.
Mr. Halley. Some was cash. Do vou have any other bank ac-
count ?
Mr. DeLucia. No, sir.
f.n¥^^' ^f^^EY. Why is it that when yon get a sum as large as $40,-
000 you take that m cash and do not put it in the bank ?
Mr. DeLucia. That is a lot of monev to put in a bank, $40,000, all
at one time, Mr. Halley. . ' '
Mr. Halley. Don't you think it is a lot of money to keep in your
house m cash? i^ ^
Mr. DeLucia. Well, I needed some cash for the house. I needed
some cash, you know, you never can tell. So I figure I can keep the
money. I always like to keep money in my hands.
Mr. Halley. For what did yon need sums in money in cash?
Mr. DeLucia. I always like to keep money in cash 'on hand. I was
told when I was a boy to keep cash money on hand at all times.
Mr. Halley. That is very nice, Mv. Ki'cca, but we are serious about
that. I don't care about what yon were told since you were a boy.
What I want to know is this : We have seen your books. They were
kept for the benefit of the parole officer, and everything is paid by
check and kept in the books in great detail. Will you tell this com-
ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE' 227
]nittee what you needed large sums of money in cash for 3 or 4 months
ago?
Mr. DeLucia. I always have cash in my home.
The CiiAiRMAX. Mr. Ricca, that is not a very satisfactory answer.
You have a bank account and keep a lot of money there.
Mr. DeLucia. Senator, that is the best answer. Maybe you won't
believe it, but that is true.
The Chairman. There isn't anything about this security matter.
The money is more secure in a bank than it is in a box in your house.
Mr. DeLucia. That is right.
The Chairman. We want to know why you had to keej) such large
sums of monev in your house or on yourself.
Mr. DeLucia. I am sorry, Senator, I can't give a better answer than
that, and I mean it. I am sincere about it. I always like to keep
money in my hands.
Mr. Hallet. At the time you borrowed that money how much
money of your own did you have left ?
Mr. DeLucia. I don't' remember. If I say anything else, I tell you
a lie. I know I was getting pretty low.
Mr. Halley. It was getting pretty low.
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Did you have $10,000 left?
Mr. DeLucia. I don't know. I don't know-.
Mr. Halley. When did you make this loan ? You say in the sum-
mertime.
Mr. DeLucia. Two or three months ago, something like that, three
or four months ago.
]\Ir. Halley. How much money did you spend in the last 3 months ?
Mr, DeLucia. You have it there.
Mr. Halley. I have it where ?
Mr. DeLucia. In the reports and all that.
Mr. Halley. No ; I want you to tell me.
Mr. DeLucia. I don't remember, Mr. Halley.
Mr. Halley. Would you say under oath that it is your testimony
that everything you spent in the last 3 months is reflected in your
books ?
Mr. DeLucia. I would, yes.
Mr. Halley. Do you spend large sums in cash for any purpose
whatsoever ?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Halley. Do you use any money for gambling ?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Halley. Did you lend any of that money to anyone else
Mr. DeLucia. No, sir.
The Chairman. Wait and get the question now. Did you lend any
of that money to anyone else
Mr. DeLucia. No, sir ; no. Senator.
The Chairman. Or give it to them ?
Mr. DeLucia. No, no.
Mr. Halley. You are sure of that ?
Mr. DeLucia. Since I come out, Mr. Halley, I made a good start
to go straight. I have tried to straighten myself out as best I could.
I want you to believe me on that. I haven't done anything out of
the way at all.
228 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr, Halley. How did you expect to ffet tlie money to pay back
$40,000? ■ J I .r
Mr. DeLucia. I expected that in the next year or so the farm Avould
be producing some money for me. I have "a stock of steers there, I
have corn coming up, I have 420 acres of corn to sell, I have about
2 acres of soybeans to sell, I sold about $9,500 worth of wheat. I
tliink if I fix all those buildings, and I had to have a place to keep
the animals and all that, I think the steers and hogs and the corn
and all that — I think I can make a good living. It is a big farm,
and if the prices hold up I will make some money. If I don't make
any money, I have to sell the farm ; I have to come up to the authorities
and say, "I can do nothing, and there you are." I will go to the
parole people and tell them.
Mr. Halley. But you can't sell the farm. It belongs to the trustee.
Mr. DeLucia. What? That is my farm. What do you mean, it
belongs to the trustee ?
Mr. Halley. You gave it to the trustee to hold.
Mr. DeLucia. If I don't pay the mortgage, they are going to come
and take the farm away from me.
Mr. Halley. What is the point of the trust, Mr. Kicca? What did
you have a trust for ?
Mr. DeLucia. I figured in case I die or something, the kids have the
farm, they have the take. Suppose my wife gets married again or
something.
Mr. Halley. Did you form the trust to avoid the taxes in case you
died? -^
Mr. DeLucia. Do you save the tax if you die with a trust?
Mr. Halley. If you don't own it you don't pay a tax.
Mr. DeLucia. I don't Imow that.'
Mr. Halley. I am curious to find out why you formed the trust.
Mr. DeLucia. I have to leave it to somebody, and I figured, suppose
I die tomorrow, I don't know what my wife is going to do.
Mr. Halley. Can't you make a will ?
Mr. DeLucia. I suppose so, but
iVIr. Halley. Who advised you to make a trust?
Mr. DeLucia. I was talking to a few people and finally I talked to
Joe Bulger, and Joe Bulger said we will make a trust, and that is the
end of it.
Mr. Halley. What did you say was your purpose in making the
trust ? What did you tell him you wanted to accomplish ?
Mr. DeLucia. To take care of my family.
INIr. Hali^ey. To take care of your family.
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Halley. How many automobiles do you own ?
Mr. DeLucia. I own a Cadillac.
Mr. Halley. Nothing else ?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Halley. Do you have a station wagon on the farrn^
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Halley. Just the one Cadillac?
Mr. DeLucia. That is right.
Mr. Halley. You bought that in July ?
Mr. DeLucia. That is rijrht.
ORGANIZED CRIME m INTERSTATE COMMERCE 229
Mr. Hallfa'. Despite the fact that you had to borrow $40,000 to live
on? nr 11 1 4-'
Mr. DeLucia. I buv a car every 3 years. I tell you, do you want
to know why I bought it? The war came up, the war started anci
there was a panic about getting cars and I said I might as well get
myself a car in case trouble comes.
Mr. Halley. You say Bennett came to your farm to see you ?
Mr. DeLucia. He came over to see the farm before he made the
mortgage; yes.
Mr. Halley. Had he been to the farm before i
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Halley. How often?
Mr. DeLucia. One or two times, I don't remember.
Mr. Halley. Did he come alone?
]Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Did he say he would have any trouble raising the
$40,000? , ,
Mr. DeLucia. The second time I saw him he said "Yes, I think I
can do it," and that is all.
INIr. Halley. Is he a very wealthy man ?
Mr. DeLucia. I don't know, Mr. Halley. He has some money, I
don't know.
Mr. Halley. What made you think of Bennett as the man who
would lend you $80,000?
;Mr. DeLucia. I figured after I got through being turned down at
the bank, I went to him, and if he had turned me down I would have
looked for somebody else.
The Chairman. There is one thing I didn't understand. You said
after you got through with the banks you went to Mr. Bennett?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
The Chairmax. Did you make application to some banks?
Mr. DeLucia. Certainly.
The Chairman. What banks?
Mr. DeLucia. The Metropolitan, and they came out to investigate.
The Prudential came out and investigated.
The Chairman. You are talking about the Metropolitan and Pru-
dential insurance companies?
jSIr. DeLucia. Yes.
The Chairman. To what banks did you make application?
Mr. DeLucia. Huh ?
The Chairman. Those are insurance companies.
Mr. DeLucia. Prudential has my mortgage.
The Chairman. I know, but what banks?
Mr. DeLucia. Banks, the Oak Park Bank. They said "No. You
have a first mortgage and- it is against the law for us to give you money
on a second mortgage." I tried. Senator.
The Chairman. What banker did you see there at the Oak Park
Bank ? Who did you see to try to get a loan ?
Mr. DeLucia. Mr. Spring.
The Chairman. At the Oak Park National Bank?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Had you ever been in business with Bennett?
Mr. DeLucia. No, sir.
230 ORGANIZED CRIME) EST INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Halley. Do you know whether he is in the money-lending
business ?
Mr. DeLucia. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. How much interest did he ask on the second mortgage ?
Mr. DeLucia. I suppose the same thing, 4 or 5 percent, whatever
it is ; I don't know.
Mr. Halley. Don't you know how much interest it is ?
Mr. DeLucia. I don't know. I dicUi't pay any attention to it.
Mr. Halley. You paid no attention to it ?
Mr. DeLucia. I mean, I don't remember. It is something like
that. I have to pay anyway, so when the time comes to pay, I will
pay it. I was tickled to get the loan, and whatever the interest was,
I pay it. Those are small details that I don't pay attention to,
Mr. Halley. You made no arrangements as to how much interest?
Mr. DeLucia. Oh, yes ; there is interest there ; yes.
Mr. Halley. When is it to be paid, at the end ?
Mr. DeLucia. At the end of 5 years.
Mr. Halley. You don't pay anything until the 5 years are over?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Halley. There is nothing in writing about that, though?
Mr. DeLucia. Sure, that is in the papers. Mr. Halley, I haven't
seen no paper or anything. All I done I gave him the paper and
took that down to the Oak Park Bank and I got the money. That
is all.
Mr. Halley. You think your trustee signed an agreement?
Mr. DeLucia. I suppose ; yes. They couldn't do it any other way.
Mr. Halley. And it is for 5 years.
Mr. DeLucia. That is right.
Mr. Halley. Who is the trustee, exactly ?
Mr. DeLucia. The Oak Park Bank, the Oak Park National Bank.
Mr. Halley. Thank you.
Mr. Robinson. I show you exhibit No. 4 which you produced at the
first hearing and call your attention to the fact that on May 6 there is
an entry that you got a loan from Hugo Bennett for $10,000. That is
1948.
Mr. DeLucia. That is right.
Mr. Robinson. On June 24, 1948. vou received a loan from Hugo
Bennett for $30,000.
Mr. DeLucia. That is right.
Mr. Robinson. Do you remember how you got that loan of $30,000 ?
Mr. DeLucia. By check.
Mr. Robinson. You are sure of that ?
Mr. DeLucia. I am pretty sure.
Mr. Robinson. You did not get it by cash ?
Mr. DeLucia. No, no.
Mr. Robinson. Do you remember whether or not you got a firet
payment of $20,000 in cash from Mr. Bennett ?
Mr. DeLucia. I think I got $10,000 and then $30,000.
Mr. Robinson. I am not talking about the May 6 check, but let's
talk about the $30,000 that you got around June 24.
Mr. DeLucia. Mr. Robinson, you got me if I got $20,000.
Mr. Robinson. You don't know whether you got it by check or by
cash?
Mr. DeLucia. I don't know.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 231
Mr. KoBiNSOx. Mr. DeLucia, this is exhibit No. 4, which is the tritil
balance in your ledger account, July 31, 1950, in which there is re-
corded a loan payable, a mortgage on the Long Beach property of
$40,000.
Mr. DeLucia. That is right,
Mr. Robinson. Immediately above that is a mortgage payable of
$10,000. Do you recall what that $10,000 is 'I
Mv. DrXuciA. That is a mistake or else— that is a mistake. You
can ask Bernstein. I don't know anything about that.
Mr. Robinson. Why do you sav it is a mistake?
Mr. DeLucia. Because that is all I got. I got $40,000, and I got
$40,000.
Mr. Robinson. Your point is that that this $40,000 should be
$30,000?
Mr. DeLucia. That is right.
Mr. Robinson. And this $10,000 is the first loan you got from
Bennett ?
Mr. DeLucia. I am pretty sure ; yes.
The Chairman. People don't make $10,000 mistakes just by acci-
dent.
Mr. DeLucia. ^Nlr. Bernstein kept those books, sir.
The Chairman. But he got his information from you.
Mr. DeLucia. Yes : but I didn't write that up, you see.
Mr. Robinson. The second $40,000 you say you never put m any
Mr! DeLucia. No. I put some of that money in a bank later. You
know* what I mean. I put $5,000 in the bank, and all that.
Mr. Robinson. How long have you known Francis Curry ?
Mr. DeLucia. Francis Curry, I know around 1930 I suppose, the
late thirties, something like that.
Mr Robinson. How- did you happen to meet him ?
Mr. DeLucia. I don't know. I have met so many people. I know
I have been good friends with him.
Mr. Robinson. Was it in connection with gambling?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Robinson. Didn't he run a gambling establishment (
Mr. DeLucia. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Robinson. Did you bet with him?
Mr. DeLucia. No, sir. .
Mr. Robinson. How did you happen to meet him i , ^ ,
Mr DeLucia. I really don't remember, Mr. Robinson, but I know
I have been good friends with him. I know we have talked about
farms and all that. ,.■,-. £
Mr. Robinson. How did you happen to hire him to run your tarm
while you were in the penitentiary ?
Mr DeLucia. Because when I bought the farm he was instrumental
in setting me the farm. I told him there was a farm there and he
said he knew the fellow or something. He got a lawyer by the name
of Kusick to deal with the Prudential people and that is how I bought
the farm. , , ^ ^ , ,
Mr. Robinson. Did you check as to whether or not Curry had an;y
ability to run a farm ?
Mr. DeLucia. When I went away ?
Mr. Robinson. Yes.
232 ORGANIZED CRIME. IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. DeLtjcia. Yes ; he liad a farm liimself.
Mr, Robinson. What was the arrangement with Curry with respect
to running your farm?
Ml-. DeLucia. He was supposed to pay me $7 an acre or something
like tliat for a time I was away.
]\Ir. Robinson. Do you know whether or not Curry lost any money
operating the farm ?
Mr. DeLucia. I don't know. I know I got paid.
INIr. Robinson. Do you know whether or not he made any money?
Mr. DeLucia. I don't know. I suppose. I don't know. What the
hell. In those days they all made money on farms, didn't they. I
don't know if he made money or not.
Mr. Robinson. I am asking if you know whether or not he made
money.
Mr. DeLucia. No, I don't. I never asked him that.
Mr. Robinson. You never discussed that at all ?
Mr. DeLucia. He never said anything to me.
Mr. Robinson. Did you make any loans from Curry ?
Mr. DeLucia. No, sir.
Mr. Robinson. Mr. DeLucia, you stated, I believe, one of the reasons
why you wanted to be paroled was the fact that your farm operation
was at a standstill and it was necessary for you to get back.
Mr. DeLucia. That is right.
Mr. Robinson. Wasn't Curry operating the farm ?
Mr. DeLucia. Curry wasn't doing any improvement. Curry was
taking out of the ground, that is all. If he invested some money, he
didn't know if I was going to come out, if I was going to die in jail
or anything like that. How was he going to do anything ?
Mr. Robinson. Wasn't he making imjjrovements to the farm?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Robinson. Wasn't he buying machinery, equipment?
Mr. DeLucia. For his own good, to get the farm going he needed
machinery.
Mr. Robinson. Did he subsequently sell that to you ?
JNIr. DeLucia. Yes, sir.
Mr. Robinson. The point I don't get is why you were worried about
the farm.
Mr. DeLucia. I wanted to improve the fann, Mr. Robinson.
Mr. Robinson. You were worried about losing the farm?"
Mr. DeLucia. No ; I wasn't worried about losing the fann because
I knew that the mortgage was five or six thousand dollars a year, and
the money I got out of the rent he would pay it. That was enough
to pay it.
Mr. Robinson. Did you say you borrowed money from Curry?
Mr. DeLucia. No; I never borrowed money from Curry.
Mr. Robinson. You never borrowed anything from him?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Robinson. How much did you owe him after the deal was over?
Mr. DeLucia. What deal ?
Mr. Robinson. After the arrangements for the operation of the
farm. He was operating the farm while you were in prison.
Mr. DeLucia. That is right. Oh, there is a dispute there. He is
looking for about thirty or thirty-five thousand dollars. We think
we owe him about twenty thousand. So we let the thing lay. We
O'RGAMZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 233
didivt see each other any more. He didn't need the money any more
I suppose, and we didn't bother, and when the time come we lett
that open.' We didn't settle tliat. . ^ i. n
Mr. Robinson. Did you buy tractors and farm equipment tor the
farm after you got out '.
Mr. DeLucia. Sure.
Mr. Robinson. Do you recall whether or not you bought any i^orcl
tractors or Ford trucks for the farm %
Mr. DeLucia. I got Ford truck, yes. ,11,
Mr. Robinson. Do you recall from whom you bought them '.
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Robinson. Who? ^ ^ ^
Mr. DeLucia. The Ford Truck I bought from Babe Baran.
Mr. Robinson. How long have you known Mr. Baran?
Mr. DeLucia. Many years.
Mr. Robinson. When did you first meet him ?
Mr. DeLucia. A^Tien did I tirst meet him?
Mr. Robinson. Yes. , ^ , . i ^ - -.a
jNIr. DeLucia. I have known Babe, I would say around lo or 20
:Mr'. Robinson. What business was he in when you first met him ?
Mr' DeLucia. I don't remember, Mr. Robinson.
:Mr. Robinson. Do you laiow whether or not he was m any gambling
business at the time you met him ?
Mr. DeLucia. No ; not to my knowledge.
Mr. Robinson. What were your dealings with him at that time {
^h- DeLucia. You met the boy at some place. You met him any-
place, some cabaret or something like that. Then he went into the
Army He became a major or colonel. Then he came out. I w\as m
the penitentiary, I think, when I read that he had the Ford agency.
So I went to see him and I got a Ford from him.
Mr. Robinson. Have you made any other purchases from him {
Mr. DeLucia. No, sir.
Mr. Robinson. You say you don't know whether or not he was ever
m any gambling enterprise ?
Mr. DeLucia. No. . . , • • q
Mr. Robinson. Did Mr. Bennett's father visit with you m prison {
Mr. DeLucia. No, sir.
Mr. Robinson. Did he ever write to you?
Mr. DeLucia. No, sir. The man is 90 years old now, Mr. Robinson.
He is very old. . , tit -r^ t • ^i 4.
Mr. Robinson. I believe you testified previously, Mr. DeLucia, that
you know Ben Fillichio.
Mr. DeLucia. Yes, sir.
Mr. Robinson. Did you testify as to what business he was in {
Mr. DeLucia. Ben Fillichio to my knowledge has a chain of liquor
stores He is my next-door neighbor, and there is no other connection
except the good-neighbor policy. Outside of that there is nothing
connecting me with him at all or anything like that.
Mr. Robinson. Do you know his brother, Anthony ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Robinson. Do you know a James Nuzzo?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes. sir.
68958 — 51 — pt. 5 16
234 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Robinson. What business is lie in ?
Mr. DeLucia. He is in the fruit business.
Mr. Robinson. Any other business ?
Mr. DeLucia, No, sir ; not that I know of.
Mr. Robinson. How about James Narro ?
Mr. DeLucia. Who?
Mr. Robinson. James Narro.
Mr. DeLucia. Who is Narro ?
Mr. Robinson. I am asking you if you know him ?
Mr. DeLucia. Narro?
Mr. Robinson. Yes.
Mr. DeLucia. No ; I don't Iniow him.
Mr. Robinson. Do you know Louis Briatta ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Robinson. Do you know what business he is in ? Did you say
you know him?
Mr. DeLucia. I know of him, yes.
Mr. Robinson. What business is he in ?
Mr. DeLucia. I don't know. Mr. Robinson, who is James Narro?
Will you please explain that ?
Mr. Robinson. I am just asking you. You say you don't know him.
Mr. DeLucia. I don't know. The last name I don't recall at all.
Mr. Robinson. I believe you also testified that you knew John
Rosselli.
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Robinson. How long have you known him ?
Mr. DeLucia. John Rosselli, I know him for about 20 years ; better
than that.
Mr. Robinson. And you know what business he was in at that time ?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Robinson. Do you know what business he was in since that
time?
Mr. DeLucia. Since that time, no.
Mr. Robinson. You know nothing about his business whatsoever?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Robinson. Have you ever discussed it with him ?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Robinson. How frequently would you see him?
Mr. DeLucia. Oh, I saw Johnnie a few times. He used to come
around the restaurant there. He went to California and I haven't
seen him for quite some time. I haven't seen Johnnie now since he
left Atlanta. The first time I saw him was today — I mean yesterday.
Mr. Robinson. Mr. DeLucia, how many times did you see Mr. Ben-
nett between the time you made the first loan and the time you made
the second loan?
Mr. DeLucia. I saw him four or five times.
Mr. RoB'iNSON. Four or five times.
Mr. DeLucia. Four or five or six times.
Mr. Robinson. In two years ?
INIr. DeLucia. Well, maybe a little more. I don't remember.
Mr. Robinson. You testified you knew Tony Accardo.
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Robinson. Charles Fischetti.
ORGAN^IZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 235
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. KoBiNSON. Jake Guzik.
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. RoBiNSOx. Why is it you made no attempt to make a loan from
them ?
Mr. DeLucia. I go to jail tonight. They would send me back to the
penitentiary.
Mr. RoBiNSOx. Do you know William Johnston?
Mr. DeLucia. Who is William Johnston? Which Johnston?
Mr. RoBixsox. The race-track owner.
Mr. DeLucia. No, sir.
Mr. EoBixsox. You don't know him and never have met him ?
Mr. DeLucia. No, sir.
Mr. EoBixsox. Do you know John Patton ?
Mr. DeLucia. Patton, yes.
The Chairmax. Did you say Yes, you knew him?
Mr. DeLucia. Johnnie Patton, yes.
Mr. RoBixsox. You have known him for a number of years ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. RoBixsox. Wliy is it you didn't ask him for the loan ?
Mr. DeLucia. For the same reason. You have to consider my posi-
tion. I can't go no place, can't do nothing.
Mr. RoBixsox. Was Mr. Bennett the only one that you knew
Mr. DeLucia. He was the first one I run across. If it wasn't him,
I would have to get somebody else, Mr. Robinson. If he turned me
down I would get somebody else.
Mr. RoBixsox. Did Mr. Bennett ever say to you during the course
of the negotiations for the loan that he didn't know whether he could
get it himself ?
Mr. DeLucia. He said he would see. He said he would see. "I am
pretty sure I can do it."
The Chairmax. Anything else ?
Mr. Halley. Getting back to your personal finances, you say that
when you came out of prison you had $300,000 in cash.
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Halley. In addition to that, you borrowed $80,000 in all.
Mr. DeLucia. I borrowed $90,000, $91,000.
Mr. Halley. From Hugo Bennett only $80,000.
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Halley. And $11,000 from the bank.
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Halley. The mortgage on your property you had gotten pre-
vious to your going into prison ?
Mr. DeLucia. ^Vhat?
Mr. Halley. Wlien did you first get the mortgage?
Mr. DeLucia. What mortgage ?
Mr. Halley. The first mortgage on your property.
Mc. DeLucia. Wliat property ?
Mr. Halley. On the Long Beach property.
Mr. DeLucia. I don't have no first mortgage there. I paid that
mortgage. I didn't have no mortgage. You see, I bought that prop-
erty for $14,000 in 1934; $14,000 or $15,000, and I was paying so much
every year with Metropolitan. So the mortgage was paid.
236 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IJSI INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Halley. You testified just a little while as^o that the reason
you went to Bennett for the mortgage on the Long Beach property was
that you couldn't get a second mortgage from the bank.
Mr. DeLucia. That is on this one here.
Mr. Halley. On which one ?
Ml-. DeLucia. On the farm.
Mr. Halley. On the farm ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Why did you go to Bennett in 1948 on the Long Beach
property ?
Mr. DeLvtcia. Oh, that was easy to get, but no bank would give me
anything. Nobody wants to deal with me.
Mr. Halley. Who gave you the $11,000?
Mr. DeLucia. The bank.
Mr. Halley. Why do you say no bank wants to give you money?
Mr. DeLucia. I had to give them bonds, money, dollar for dollar.
Mr. Halley. The Long Beach property is real estate.
Mr. DeLucia. You try it.
Mv. Halley. That is good collateral.
:Mr. DeLucia. You try it.
Mr. Halley. This isn't funny. It is quite serious. You testified
a little while ago that the reason you went to Bennett was that you
couldn't get a second mortgage on the Long Beach property.
Mr. DeLucia. No, I didn't say that. If I said so, I was mistaken.
Mr. Halley. You also said so in Washington when I questioned
you, and that was your reason for going to Bennett.
Mr. DeLucia. I am sorry, Mr. Halley, I was mistaken.
Mr. Halley. That was wrong?
Mr. DeLucia. That is right.
Mr. Halley. What is correct ?
Mr. DeLucia. This is correct.
I\Ir. Halley. What?
Mv. DeLucia. The second mortgage was on the farm, but on the
Long Beach property there was no mortgage, and I think I told you
that.
Mr. Halley. You borrowed $11,000 from the bank, is that correct?
Mr. DeLucia. That is right.
Mr. Halley. Those two loans, according to your books, were made
in 1048, is that right?
Mr. DeLucia. That is right.
Mr. Halley. When did you get out of prison?
Mr. DeLucia. 1947.
Mr. Halley. When you got out of prison you had $300,000 in
cash.
Mr. DeLucia. That is right.
Mr. Halley. By 1948 you had to borrow $41,000— $51,000?
• Mr. DeLucia. Well, I told you what I did.
Mr. Halley. Had you spen"t your $300,000?
]\Ir, DeLucia. No, no ; I didn't spend it. I know to borrow money
for me it is hard to get, Mr. Halley, and I want you to believe me.
Mr. Halley. So you were borrowing it far in advance of your
need ?
Mr. DeLucia. Why, certainly.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 237
Mr. Halley. Mr, DeLucia, do you expect anybody to believe that
story? If we sent this record to the parole officer, would you expect
him to read it and believe you are telling this committee the truth?
Mr. DeLucia. I told the parole officer I borrowed the money.
Mr. Halley. Maybe he didn't cross-examine you about what you
had. Why did you borrow $51,000 in 1948 ?
Mr. DeLucia. I told you, Mr. Halley. '
Mr. Halley. You had $300,000 in cash, is that right, and you bor-
rowed $51,000 more to have more cash.
Mr. DeLucia. If I could borrow more I would borrow more.
Mr. PIalley. You would boirow more ?
Mr. DeLucia. Surely.
Mr. Halley. Then by May of this year — according to the books,
that is when you made the loan — you w^ere broke or almost broke.
Mr. DeLucia. No, I wasn't broke.
Mr. Halley. You say altogether now you have only about $-±0,000 ?
Mr. DeLucia. That is right.
Mr. Halley. There is no mistake there?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Halley. That $40,000 is the same amount you just borrowed
in May ? All you could have had in May is what you spent between
May and now, if you have $40,000 left now.
Mr. DeLucia. I had some money left, I told you. I had some
money left, and when I got the $40,000 I mixed it with what I had
left.
Mr. Halley. That is right, but now you have $40,000 you say.
Mr. DeLucia. Yes, maybe a little less or a little more.
Mr. Halley. Whatever you had left then is what you spent between
May and October.
Mr. DeLucia. I didn't get you there.
Mr. Halley. It is arithmetic. Look. You had a little money left,
ri^ht, in May when you made the loan ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Then you borrowed $40,000.
Mr. DeLucia. That is right, yes.
Mr. Halley. Now you have altogether $40,000.
Mr. DeLucia. Yes, something like that.
Mr. Halley. So whatever you spent between May and October must
be what you had left.
Mr. DeLucia. No ; you see what happened — let me explain this. I
had something to pay on the farm, around $6,000.
Mr. Halley. What was payable ?
Mr. DeLucia. Whatever it is. You have got it. Just a moment.
So I paid it out of the $40,000.
Mr. Halley. And you paid it in cash.
Mr. DeLucia. Just a minute.
Mr. Halley. How did you pay that $6,000 ?
Mr. DeLucia. Cash. I put it in the bank.
Mr. Halley. You put it in the bank ?
Mr. DeLucia. I put it in my check, whatever it was. Then I had
corn secured by a Government loan — No. That is right. Oh, no.
Then I sold my wheat. I got $9,000 — nine-thousand-three-hunclred-
something. What I did was to put the $6,000 cash back in pocket and
238 ORGANIZED CRIME' IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE
put $3,000 on the book. Yon see how I work. Yon see how I put some
cash money in there.
Mr. Halley. I don't see why you need cash at alL
Mr. DeLucia. You don't ?
Mr. Halley. I frankly don't.
Mr. DeLucia. I don't know what to answer you.
Mr. Halley. Explain this : You liave $40,000 left noAV, more or less?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Let's say not less than $35,000 and not more than
$45,000.
Mr. DeLucia. I am quite sure ; yes.
Mr. Halley. Not more than $45,000 ?
Mr. DeLucia. I am quite sure ; yes.
Mr. Halley. All right, not more than $45,000.
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Halley. Does "no" mean you agree with me ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes, I agree with you.
Mr. Halley. Between $35,000 and $40,000.
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Halley. You came out of prison in 1947.
Mr. DeLucia. That is right.
Mr. Halley. This is the middle of 1950.
Mr. DeLucia. That is right.
Mr. Halley. Three years.
Mr. DeLucia. That is right.
Mr. Halley. You have spent $351,000.
Mr. DeLucia. To improve my place, yes.
Mr. Hali^y. You put $351,000 into your place?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Your testimony didn't show that.
Mr. DeLucia. Not on my place; for living, too, and all that.
Mr. Halley. In 3 years ?
Mr. DeLucia. My living expense, too.
Mr. Halley. I think you testified that vou put something over
$100,000 into the place.
Mr. DeLucia. I don't know, whatever it was. It amounts to that
anyway. I don't know.
Mr. Halley. Let's say you put $200,000 into the place.
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Let's assume that.
Mr. DeLucia. And the rest for living.
Mr. Halley. $50,000 a year?
Mr. DeLucia. i\. year, Mr. Halley. ISIaybe more or less than that.
Mr. Halley. You didn't have to pay any income tax on that $350,-
000. It wasn't income obviously.
Mr. DeLucia. I didn't make anything.
Mr. Halley. So if you spent the $150,000 in 3 j^ears for living
expenses, you actually spent $50,000 a year.
Mr. DeLucia. $150,000 living expenses; no, no.
Mr. Halley. What did you spend it for, Mr. DeLucia ?
Mr. DeLucia. Roughly you figure I would say about $50,000 or
$60,000 for my living expenses, and the rest went into the farm.
Mr. Halley. But the books show w^hat went into the farm.
Mr. DeLucia. Whatever is there is there.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 239
Mr. Haixet. You testified last time that it was something over
$100,000,
Mr. DeLucia. Yes ; whatever it was.
Mr. Halley. Of course, if that is all you spent for living expenses,
there is $351,000 that has to be accounted for somewhere. If you
spent say $130,000
Mr. DeLucia. I spent more than that on the farm.
Mr. Halley. What did you spend?
Mr. Halley. Oh, I don't know^ You have the books. What have
you got the books for, Mr. Halley. How can I remember those things ?
Mr. Halley. You got the books for the parole officer.
Mr. DeLucia. For myself, too.
Mr. Halley. That is w^hat they told you when you were in prison, to
keep your money in casli and keep your accounts in your head.
Mr. DeLucia. Cash all the time. That is the best.
Mr. Halley. And your books in the head ?
Mr. DeLucia. You want me to tell you the truth, so I am telling
you.
Mr. Halley. Now, tell me what you did with all the cash.
Mr. DeLucia. There you are.
Mr. Halley. No ; there I ain't.
Mr. DeLucia. I spent the money for living.
Mr. Halkey. $130,000. Where 'is the other $230,000 in 3 years?
Mr. DeLucia. $230,000 ?
Mr. Halley. Take a piece of paper and a pencil and do your own
arithmetic. 1 will write it for you. It is very simple arithmetic.
$300,000 you had in the box in cash.
Mr. DeLucia. That is right.
Mr. Halley. $80,000 you got from Bennett.
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Halley. $11,000 you got from the bank.
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Halley. $391,000.
Mr. DeLucia. That is right.
Mr. Halley. $120,000 you spent on the farm; $271,000 you spent
some other place.
Mr. DeLucia. I spent more than that on the farm.
Mr. Halley. All right, you have $40,000 left.
Mr. DeLucia. No, I spent more than that on the farm.
Mr. Halley. So let's say you have $45,000 left.
Mr. DeLucia. I spent more than that on the farm.
The Chairmax. $130,000 is what the books show, as I remember.
Mr. DeLucia. I spent more than that.
The Chairman. You have to account for $271,000 less $45,000.
That means $225,000.
Mr. DeLucia. I spent more than that on the farm, Mr. Halley.
The Chairman. What did you spend on the farm then? Tell us.
Mr. DeLucia. I don't know. Senator. I was figuring as long as it
was on the books out there, I didn't have to explain anything.
The Chairman. The books show only $125,000 or $130,000 you
spent somewhere along there, don't they, Mr. Robinson ?
Mr. Halley. Wliat are vour living expenses? You say about
$60,000 for the 3 years.
240 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. DeLucia. I don't know. It might be something like $70,000
or $80,000 for the 3 years.
Mr. Halley. All right. Is it your testimony here under oath that
everything in excess of $80,000 went into the farm ?
Mr. DeLucia. Oh, I don't know that. I w^ouldn't say that.
Mr. Halley. You better say something. You have to give us your
best answer.
Mr. DeLucia. I don't know. You have the books there. Call my
bookkeeper..
Mr. Halley. Where did the money go?
Mr. DeLucia. That is all, the farm and the house.
Mr. Halley. You see there is one disadvantage about all these cash
deals that you like, and that is the books don't explain everything.
Cash is something that is in your pocket. You testified under oath
that you had over this period of 3 years in your pocket in cash money
$391,000, and this committee wants to find out where that money went.
You said about $80,000 went for living expenses.
Mr. DeLucia. About that.
Mr. Halley. Where did the rest go ? Let's say $90,000
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Would be a lot to spend. That is about $600 a week,
just to live. On the farm you grow- your own food, you have no rent,
you own your own car. I don't know what you spent $600 a week for
as a respectable farmer.
Mr. DeLucia. I don't know what to tell you, Mr. Halley.
Mr. Halley. Please tell me.
Mr. DeLucia. Please, I don't know what to tell you. I tried to
give the best explanation I could.
Mr. Halley. That is a very unsatisfactory answer.
Mr. DeLucia. I am sorry, Mr. Halley.
Mr. Halley. Have you no explanation for what became of the
$391,000?
Mr. DeLucia. Outside of what I have given you.
Mr. Halley. No other explanation ?
Mr. DeLucia. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. You do not now want to take the opportunity which
I am now offering you to explain what happened to $391,000?
Mr. DeLucia. It is all there.
Mr. Halley. It is all where ?
Mr. DeLucia. In the books and all.
Mr. Halley, You stand on whatever the books show?
Mr. DeLucia. The books show whatever my expense was,
Mr. Halley. And whatever your testimony is ?
Mr. DeLucia. That is right.
Mr. Halley. You have no further explanation?
Mr. DeLucia. No, sir.
INIr. Halley. Now. Mr. Ricca, when you arranged for your parole
who was your lawyer?
Mr. DeLucia. I didn't have no lawyer.
Mr. Halley. Who handled it ?
Mr. DeLucia. I found out that Mr. Dillon was the man on the
parole board. All I know is that when you go in the penitentiary the
warden calls you in. They have a board, they have an examining
board, they have so many. You go through for 30 days a lot of riga-
ORGANIZED CRIME I^^ INTERSTATE COMMERCE 241
marole there. Tlie warden tells you, "I don't care who you are or what
you have done or whatever race, you are only number so and so. 1
didn't put you in here. All I want you to do is not to cause me
trouble, if you don't cause me trouble and keep your nose clean" —
that is what they tell you— "at the time for parole I will put a good
word in for you'with the parole. I will recommend you for parole."
That I did, and when I got out I think I earned that, because I was
Paul DeLucia, I can get the right like anybody else did, can't I?
Mr. Hallet. Why did you have to hire Mr. Dillon ?
Mr. DeLucia. I did not. After I come out I find out that Mr.
Dillon was instrumental and went to see the parole board and all
that.
The Chairman. Did you see him before you got out ?
Mr. DeLucia. No, Senator.
The Chairman. Who acted for you in getting Mr. Dillon?
Mr. DeLucia. I understand Mr. Campugna was instrumental to
see Mr. Dillon in behalf of all of us.
The Chairman. How much did you pay Mr. Dillon ?
Mr. DeLucia. I paid $5,000.
The Chairman. Who else did you pay ?
Mr. DeLucia. That is all.
The Chairman. You didn't pay any other lawyer, no accountant,
nobody else at all for your parole ?
Mr. DeLucia. No, sir.
The Chairman. How did you pay Mr. Dillon, by check or cash?
Mr. DeLucia. No ; I sent the money to Louis Campagna.
The Chairman. You gave $5,000 in cash to Louis Campagna ?
:Mr. DeLucia. Yes. He sent a cashier's check. It all came out in
the congressional hearing.
The Chairman. Anything else?
Mr. Halley. Did you have Maury Hughes for a lawyer ?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Hallet. What did he have to do with your parole ?
Mr. DeLucia. He didn't have anything to do as far as I am con-
cerned. .
Mr. Halley. What did he have to do with having the indictment
dismissed in New York?
Mr. DeLucia. I don't know anything about that.
Mr. Halley. Who paid Maury Hughes ?
Mr. DeLucia. I don't know.
The CHAIR3IAN. Did you pay him anything?
Mr. DeLucia. No, sir.
The Chairman. Did you ever meet Dillon ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes ; I saw him over at the hearing.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever see him anywhere else ?
Mr. DeLucia. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever meet Maury Hughes?
Mr. DeLucia. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. You never saw Maury Hughes?
Mr. DeLucia. No, sir.
]Mr. Halley. You never saw him in your whole life?
Mr. DeLucia. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. No other questions.
242 ORGANIZED CRIME. IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Robinson. Mr. DeLiicia, did you ever do any favors for Mr.
Bennett?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Robinson. None at all ?
Mr. DeLucia. No.
Mr. Robinson. When you were visited by Mr. Bernstein and Ac-
cardo in prison, did you carry on a conversation in Italian with Mr.
Accardo ?
Mr. DeLucia. No, no.
Mr. Robinson. Was the entire conversation between the three of
you in Eno;lish ?
Mr. DeLucia. Tliere was a guard there at all times.
Mr. Robinson. You did not speak in Italian ?
Mr. DeLucia. No, Mr. Robinson.
Mr. Robinson. Wliat was the purpose of Mr. Accardo's coming
there ?
Mr. DeLucia. I told you, I wanted to talk to Bernstein about it, and
that is how Joe came over there.
Mr. Robinson. Was Mr. Accardo present all the time during the
conversation ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes ; he was there while "we were talking.
Mr. Robinson. Did he talk to Mr, Campagna ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes,
Mr. Robinson. During the time that he was visiting there?
Mr. DeLucia. That is right. They were both together.
The Chairman. Have you found out who put up that money to pay
your income tax liability ?
Mr. DeLucia. Not yet, Senator.
The Chairman, Are you making inquiry about it since we saw you?
Mr, DeLucia, I haven't made any inquiry, I figured they would
come over and tell me themselves.
The Chairman, Have you found out yet who killed Captain Drury ?
Mr, DeLucia, No, sir.
The Chairman. Where were you that night?
Mr. DeLucia. I was home.
The Chairman. Do you know Captain Drury ?
Mv. DeLucia. Yes.
The Chairman. Any other questions?
Mr. Robinson. You say you knew Fillichio, and he is a neighbor
of yours?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Robinson. You know him quite well ?
Mr. DeLucia. Yes.
Mr. Robinson. He is in the liquor business ?
Mr, DeLucia, Yes,
Mr, Robinson, Why didn't you ask him for the loan ?
Mr, DeLuci-a, Why should I ask him ?
Mr, Robinson, I am asking you. He is a good friend of yours.
Why didn't you ask him?
Mr, DeLucia, I figured he might need money himself. He has so
many stores, or something like that.
The Chairman, All right. Anything else? All right, Mr, De-
Lucia, if we want you again we will get in touch with you.
Mr, DeLucia, Yes. Senator.
ORGAI^IZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 243
rURTHEH TESTIMONY OF JOHN S. BOYLE, STATE'S ATTORNEY,
COOK COUNTY. ILL.
Mr. Halley. I would like to state for the record that Mr. Kerner
informed me— Mr. Boyle was modest about it— that it was Mr. Boyle
who gave him the information which he conveyed to us about the
whereabouts of Matt Capone who was discovered in San Diego under
the name of Hunter. Mr. Boyle's office got that information and
promptly conveyed it through Mr. Kerner to us.
The Chairman. We appreciate that very much, Mr. Boyle.
Mr. Boyle. You are entirely welcome, sir.
Yon asked me to bring in any records I had on this matter, and
I have them here.
Mr. Halley. The committee will take them, Mr. Boyle.
Mr. Boyle. Very well. ,
(The records were identified as exhibit No. 28, and were returned to
witness after analysis by the committee. )
The Chairman. Is there any information you want to ask about
the records ?
Mr. Halley. We will take a quick look.
Mr. Boyle. There isn't much in there, I will be frank with you.
Mr. Halley. I have just one question, Mr. Boyle. Did you work
up the printed material on this form contract or is that something
they had ?
Mr. Boyle. Thev had that ; yes.
Mr. Halley. You have here Trans-American Publishnig News
Service, application for special contract services, a printed form. Is
that something thev had when thev came to you or that you worked up?
Mr. Boyle. Thfit is what they had. Another thing I did in this
case, I wrote a brief for them on the legality of the wire service, but
I don't know where that brief is. I will have to dig it up. I noticed
that in one of my letters where they took out some phones. I wrote
Mr. Halley. Did you ever get a list of the complete shareholdei^s ?
Mr. Boyle. No ; l\lid not. They didn't give me any such thing.
The Chairman. The only person you did business with m this
thing was Mr. Burns ?
Mr. Boyle. No. I said yesterday Mr. O'Hara also came into my
office. As I recall now after looking at the files, he came in several times.
The Chairman. Mr. Burns was the president, and who was Mr.
O'Hara?
Mr. Boy-le. He was an officer. As I recall it to check, follow up on
this corporation form there. It has all the information.
The Chairman. i\Ir. O'Hara was the secretary.
Mr. Boyle. He was the secretary and Mr. Burns was the president.
Mr. Robinson. Pat Burns was the president first and then Andrew
succeeded him — the son succeeded him.
The Chair^ian. You did do an extensive brief on the legality of the
wire service?
Mr. Boyle. Yes ; I did. I notice in one of my letters I said I would
send a copy. I will have to check and find the brief.
The Chairman. That is all right. Who is O'Keefe and O'Brien?
Mr. Boyle. They evidently represented them before.
244 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Halley. I see also you have sent us tlie statement of William
Brantman and Thomas Connelly.
Mr. Boyle. Yesterday I told you I had a statement of Kutner and
I checked my office yesterday afternoon. I did not take a written
statement from Kutner. Ed Greene and I sat in and talked to him,
but I did take a written statement from Connelly and from Brantman.
I could check that corporation service there and find out all the other
information you might need if you want me to have that tile back. I
can follow it up for you.
The Chairman. The only thing I see in here of any importance is
the application for special contract service.
Mr. Boyle. You can find out who those people are by checking that.
The Chairman. Do you know how many people they did service f or
at that time?
Mr. Boyle. No. As I recall it now — I was a little hazy yesterday
because I was sort of hit w^ith this unexpectedly and I didn't have my
file with me — but I don't know more than one or two groups of persons
who came in ; and if they did, I have a copy of it there. I don't think
they had many customers. That is probably why they went out of
business. I brought the complete file. That is some sort of personal
matter of one of these fellows — whether it was O'Hara or whether it
was Burns, I don't know — about some petition they wanted in the sani-
tary district, about some nuisance. It applied to them personally,
but I took the file as it was and took nothing out of it. I didn't want
even to remove that. It has nothing to do with the service at all.
The Chairman. He is trying to abate a nuisance apparently.
Mr. Boyle. Adjoining his home.
The Chairman. A pig farm.
Mr. Boyle. Yes.
The Chairman. Were you still representing Trans-American wliea
it ceased to do business ?
Mr. Boyle. I think I was no longer representing them about 2
weeks before they ceased to do business. I did not close up the col'-
poration. I had nothing to do with that.
The Chairman. I mean, how did you happen to stop representing
them at the time you did ?
Mr. Boyle. As I recall it, they called me up and said they were
going broke and they were going to fold up. The next thing I saw
something in the newspaper where they had dissolved the corpora-
tion and that w^as the end of it.
The Chairman. But j^ou didn't dissolve the corporation ?
Mr. Boyle. No ; I did not.
The Chairman. Mr. Halley, I think that contract is the only thing
I see of any importance.
Mr. Boyle. Frankly, as I look back on it now I realize they didn't
give me much information as to the workings of the corporation and
who the officers were. They didn't give you the books and records.
Mr. Halley. They gave you a quick deal.
Mr. Boyle. What do you mean by quick deal ?
Mr. Halley. They sort of shuffled the cards \evy fast so you couldn't
get the facts.
Mr. Boyle. Clients frequently do that. They come in and gloss
over the facts, and unless there is some reason for suspicion you just
don't get the facts from them. It is quite prevalent.
OEGAA'IZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 245
The Chairman. You never did keep their corporate books or
records ?
Mr. Boyle. No. They had an auditor.
Mr. Robinson. I notice a letter here, Mr. Boyle, which you sent to
the Corporation Trust Co., April 11, 1947, asking that since you repre-
sented the company they send to you all communications regarding
the corporation.
Mr. Boyle. You see they were registered evidently as registered
agents in Delaware, which is where they operated, and then when they
got a notice I told tliem to send it to me, notice of time being due to
file papers. But that corporation organization can give you more
information I imagine because they must have received all the neces-
sary information.
The Chairman. Anything else i
Mr. Halley. No.
The Chairman. Mr. Boyle, what was the name of that chief of
police that you prosecuted out at Calumet City?
INlr. Boyle. I tliink it is Wolinski, or some sort of name like that.
I can get it for you.
The Chairman. We have it in the record.
Mr. B0YT.E. I don't think I gave you the correct name yesterday.
I gave you the name of the chief of police of Cicero.
The Chairman. What approximately is the man's name at Calumet
Citv (
Mr. Boyle. I think it is Wolinski. I could get it on the telephone.
The Chairman. Was he the one that was tried and the jury let
him off(
Mr. Boyle. That is right.
The Chairman. He is their chief of police out there now ?
Mr. Boyle. I understand he is. I think he is. I don't know.
The Chairman. Some fellows told some of our staff that a place
was operating wide open out there and they went out and saw for
themselves last night and found that it was. We are not trying to
raid or close up local places. It was just as a matter of information.
Mr. Boyle. Where was it ?
The Chairman. I don't know.
Mr. Boyle. What they call the strip ?
Mr. Halley'. The Show Bar.
Mr. Boyle. We have closed a lot of those places and have been
active out there. In fact, we had the mayor before our grand jury
also. The grand jury didn't indict the mayor. He was very stub-
born. He stood up there and said that he needed the money froni
these saloons at $400 a year that they paid, he needed that money in
order to operate the town, to pay the fire and police departments, to pay
their salaries. I don't know why they didn't indict him.
Mr. Halley'. I am curious: Were you going before the grand jury
on charges of gambling or just general violations ?
Mr. Boyle. Malfeasance in office. That is what we indicted them
for. for not suppressing gambling.
Mr. Halley-. Was it gambling or simply stripping?
Mr. Boyle. Gambling and strip-tease places and dice games and
everything else — an accumulation of evidence, you see.
Mr. Halley. You were able to get evidence of dice games running
wide open at that time?
246 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Boyle. Yes; from our investigators, and they testified.
Mr. Halley. There seems to be no trouble picking up that evidence
out there.
The Chairman. What does the sheriff do about it out tliere? Does
he ever close up any of those places?
Mr. Boyle. Not tliat I know of.
The Chairman. Is it his duty to do that?
Mr. Boyle. Yes; it is his duty to close them up.
The Chairman. This is true whether they are inside the city limits
or not ?
Mr. Boyle. It doesn't make any difference. He has adopted the
attitude that in an incorporated village he doesn't have jurisdiction,
but he is the main enforcing officer of our county, the main law-
enforcement officer. When I told you j^esterday about having 76
police officers in my office, I think you may have gotten an erroneous-
idea of what those police officers do. They work on criminal cases
that are pending in the criminal court after indictments are returned.
They go out and get evidence. They bring in witnesses and serve
subpenas. They are very busy out there. I don't want you to get
the impression that 76 men have nothing to do but run out into the
county.
Mr. White. Do you find anv evidence of prostitution in Calumet
City?
Mr. Boyle. It was a general picture of prostitution. We even had
evidence in the Calumet City case of crookedness. We figured the
jury might not wan.t to convict the man on gambling, but if we
proved crookedness they might get mad enough to indict him. Tli^y
were calibrated dice. Even despite that thev didn't indict him.
We had two of our top prosecutors on the case. The only defense
they offered was character witnesses, a bunch of character witnesses
anci the defendant's own testimony. I could get you a transcript of
that if you want it which shows the whole picture out there. If it is
enough I will give 3'ou the transcript on the Calumet City case.
The Chairman. That is all riglit. We just need the general out-
line. You charged this chief of ]:)olice with malfeasance in office.
Mr. Boyle. Nonfeasance under our statute. Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. What was the mayor charged with before the
grand jury.
Mr. Boyle. He was just brought in and questioned. He was sub-
penaed before the grand jury but the grand jury didn't indict him.
The grand jury has the power of indicting or not indicting. He
admitted there was gambling out there and he admitted there were
shows, and he admitted all these things.
The Chairman. But he said he needed the revenue ?
Mr. Boyle. Yes. He was cold about it, brought in the books of
the city and said, "This is my condition here. I need the $400 a
year from these taverns. Unless I get it the tax rates will treble."^
Mr. Halley. It is discouraging, I should think, to try to enforce
the law under such conditions.
The Chairman, What is the mayor's name?
Mr. Boyle. Kominski. Understand the geographical set-up there.
That is one street, the end street. On the east side of of the street
is Hammond, Ind., on the west side is Calumet City. 111. I under-
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 247
stand that most of their trade comes from tliese industrial towns like
Hammond, Indian Harbor, and places like that.
The Chairmax. How large a force does the sheriff have, do you
know ?
Mr. Boyle. It is over 100, and they are police officers in uniform.
They have cars and they patrol the county. The other day we had
to make an arrest up at a place called Ralph's Place, a notorious
place up north. I took their liquor license away from them through
the count}' board and also the State rescinded their liquor license.
Then the crime commission told us that they were still selling
liquor there. We went up and made an arrest and that case is com-
ing up next week, arrest for selling liquor without a liquor license.
Of course we understand there is a gambling place in the back,
but our fellows can't get in, and the crime commission men can't
get in, and the shferiff says he can't get in.
Mr. White. What is the address i
Mr. Boyle. I can give it to you. It is Ralph's Place.
Mr, Devereux. Waukegan Road and Northfield township.
The Chairman. We don't want you pushing any doors in.
Mr. Boyle. I would like to have him try some of these places
in this county. They really have tightened up and toughened up so
it is difficult for any stranger to get in. They are very careful. The
Lumber Gardens, we put them out of business. That was a notorious
])lace in Melrose Park.
Mr. Halley. Would you be willing to elaborate on whether the
sheriff has been doing his duty ?
Mr. Boyle. Why don't you ask him how many slot machines
he destroyed since we went out to get them, since November 1949.
I don't know of any.
The Chairman. He said he had gotten
Mr. Halley. Fourteen prior to that.
Mr. Boyle. Why did he quit ?
Mr. Halley. Did he just quit?
Mr. Boyle. It looks that way. I don't know of any machines
he picked up.
The Chairman. When did you start?
Mr. Boyle. November 1, 19-19. He got 500 — whatever the num-
ber was I told you yesterday — 560-some machines.
Mr. Halley. Have you any evidence whatsoever that his depu-
ties are being corrupted in any way ?
Mr. Boyle. There was a lieutenant by the name of Gleason up
on the North Side, I don't think he is with them any longer, but
he raised the devil with my fellows for coming out there and bothering
those gambling places and slot machines. We had quite an argument
about it when he was in the witness chair.
The Chairman. What is his name?
Mr. Boyle. I think his name is Lieutenant Gleason After all, let's
be practical about this thing. If you want to stop gambling in the
country towns or any other place, all you have to do is put a police-
man at the front door and that will stop them from coming or going
and they will be out of business in a week.
Mr. Halley. You know the practical situation here. He says his
force is 129 men, I think, mainly for road patrol, and that they don't
have time for investigative work.
24S ORGANIZED CRIME; IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Boyle. That is the same argument the chief of police of Cahi
met City gives, that he needs his })olice officers for school crossings.
They all need them for something except the suppression of gambling.
They all need them for something else.
Mr. Halley. For your information, we subpenaed an officer who
was sitting in the room about as far from the gambling table as you
are from me.
Mr. Boyle. We have evidence that the sheriff's police have been
parked in front of gambling places.
]Mr. Halley. This wasn't the sheriff's men.
Mr. Boyle. I am talking about the sheriff's men. We have evidence
that they have parked in front of places and we called that to his at-
tention, giving him the license number of the car, and the number of
the car, ])arked in front of gambling places. In fact we had one in-
stance where the sheriff's men were directing the persons into the
gambling place.
Mr. Robinson. Mr. Boyle, do you think the police officials in the
city of Chicago have been as efficient in that respect as the sheriff
may be ?
Mr. Boyle. That is a difficult (luestion to answer. As I told you,
I do not go into the city of Chicago because I have enough to do in
the country towns and I have faith in Mayov Kennelly nnd I am sure
you have too. He has suppressed a great deal of gambling. There
are no open rooms that I know of. By that I mean sheets and loud-
speakers and all that sort of thing. I think a lot of your gambling
is by telephone. I understand that it is one of those hit-and-run
ideas where yon walk in and make a bet or two and then you walk
out. You don't hang around tliere. There used to be big rooms. You
know, as background, there was a fellow here by the name of Skid-
more some years ago, and this is common knowledge, and each gam-
bling place would pay him so nuich a month to operate. This was
before Mayor Kennelly came in. He was sentenced to the peniten-
tiary on an income-tax violation. Kerner took care of him. But
tliat doesn't exist today. The ward committeemen have been stripped
of their power today, believe me. I don't know whether that ex-
plains it to you the way — frankly, he has been cursed and damned by
politicians around here, the old-line politicians, because they feel he
has taken their power away from them. They can't transfer police
captains, which is right, of course.
Mr. Halley. You mentioned one instance in wliich the sheriff's
deputies were found to be directing patrons to a gambling house.
Mr. Boy^le. I can get that information for yon. I gave him that
information. I w^rote him a letter to that effect and told him the
license number of the car and everything else.
The Chairman. Will you get that letter ?
Mr. Boyle. Yes. I had it here yesterday but I didn't think to turn
it over to you.
Mr. Halley. What reply did you get from the sheriff specifically
on the one ?
Mr. Boyle. Here I am being vague again. I don't like to be that
way. I would like to get all my records and bring them in here and
show you what we have done.
Mr. Halley. I am sorry to take so much of your time bringing you
back and forth.
O'RGAOTZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 249
Mr Boyle. There is nothing more important than this.
Mr. Halley. It is very helpful Thank you.
Mr Boyle. Of course, as the mayor said yesterday, it you didn t
have people who would bet, you wouldn't have any bookies, ihey
would starve to death. You have to bring the morals of the people
"^ThJ Chairman. Thank you very much, Mr. Boyle. If you would
get us that detailed information.
Mr. Boyle. I will get it all for you.
The Chairman. Thank you. .
Now Mrs. Fischetti, will you hold up your right hand, btand up,
please Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give this com-
mittee will be the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you
God?
TESTIMONY OF MRS. ANNE FISCHETTI, MIAMI BEACH, FLA.;
ACCOMPANIED BY CHARLES E. FORD, ATTORNEY, WASHING-
TON, D. C.
Mrs. Fischetti. I do. • • • i 9
The Chairman. Mr. Ford, what are you mitials ^ , ^ ^ ^. , , ^^ ,
Mr. Ford. Charles E. Ford, Columbian Building, 416 b itth street
NW., Washington, D. C. ^^^ ^ . ^ „
The Chairman. 416 Fifth Street NW., Washington, D. C.
All right, Mr. Robinson.
Mr. Robinson. Will you state your name, please.
Mrs. Fischetti. Mrs. Anne Fischetti.
Mr. Robinson. Where do you reside?
Mrs. Fischetti. At 6475 Allison Road m Miami Beach, J^ la.
Mr. Robinson. Is that your permanent residence?
Mrs. Fischetti. Yes.
Mr. Robinson. Is that your legal residence i
Mrs. Fischetti. Yes.
The Chairman. Let's all talk a little louder so we can hear.
Mr. Robinson. Do you have any other residence address?
Mrs. Fischetti. I do not. • m •
Mr. Robinson. Do you have any home or place ot residence m L.I11-
cago?
Mrs. Fischetti. I do not.
Mr. Robinson. What is your husband's name? 1 ou are married i
Mrs. Fischetti. Yes.
Mr. Robinson. What is your husband's name «
Mrs. Fischetti. Charles. . . tit t^- i 4.^- 9
Mr. Robinson. How long have you been married, Mrs. b ischetti i
Mrs. FiscHETTL December of 1931.
Mr. Robinson. How long have you been living m b lorida i
Mrs. Fischetti. Since 1939.
Mr. Robinson. When did you last see your husband?
Mrs Fischetti. I refuse to answ^er that because of my marital
status as the wife of Charles Fischetti and because the answer may
tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. What was the question ?
(The pending question and the answer were read by the reporter.)
68958 — 51— pt. 5 17
250 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Tlie Chairman. When did you last see your husband, Charles Fis-
chetti ? The chairman will restate the question : When did you last
see your husband, Charles Fischetti ?
What is your answer, Mrs. Fischetti ?
Mrs. Fischetti. I refuse to answer that because of my marital status
as the wife of Charles Fischetti and because the answer may tend to
incriminate me.
The Chairman. You are here represented by Mr. Ford?
Mrs. Fischetti. That is correct.
The Chairman. First, the chairman directs you to answer the ques-
tion. The chairman states to you that on the basis shown you have
no right not to answer the question. Do you refuse to answer the
question ?
Mrs. Fischetti. I believe I have the right.
The Chairman. I mean do you refuse to answer notwithstanding
the fact that the chairman orders you to answer?
Mrs. Fischetti. I do because I believe I have the right and the
privilege.
The Chairman. Now, Mr. Ford, at this point we ask you on what
ground or m wliat connection you feel that this Avould incriminate
Mrs. Fischetti.
Mr. Ford. I believe the answer may tend, first, on the ground of
privilege, which I believe is established both in the District of Co-
lumbia, m this State, by the Supreme Court of the United States, in
cases both civil and criminal. I have a couple of citations if you
wish me to cite them, in my pocket. One was a probate case in the
Supreme Court of the United States. It was the taking of a deposi-
tion. It wasn't a suit against anyone. That is, it was neither a suit
against a husband or wife. They were not parties to the litigation.
The Chairman. That is, giving any information even about when
you last saw your spouse, your husband ?
Mr. Ford. That is right.
The Chairman. Is that true ?
Mr. Ford. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Do you have some contention about what Federal
offense this answer would incriminate Mrs. Fischetti ?
Mr^FoRD. Many. First, the general conspiracy statute of our Fed-
eral Crovernment. Secondly, the fact that it may lead to raising the
question of whether or not a person has committed a State offeiSe as
soon as they cut across the State line. Of course they may become
guilty of a Federal offense by the mere leaving of the jurisdiction.
There are many, yes, sir. Those two I can recall offhand.
Mr. Halley. Mr. Chairman, may I ask a question.
The Chairman. We are going to have to continue this over until
after lunch. Unfortunately, I have an engagement to speak to the
Executives Club, so I think that during the recess you and the staff and
Mr. Ford might look at any citations that he has.
Mr. Halley. I would like a written list of tlie citations at this time.
,The Chaikman. We will recess until 1:45, at which time wte
will resume, and we will continue with your testimony, Mrs. Fischetti.
In the meantime, you will show Mr. Halley and ^Ir. Robinson your
brief. We will excuse you now, Mrs. Fischetti.
Mr. Ford. Until what time?
O'RGAN'IZEO CRIME VN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 251
The Chairman. Until 15 minutes of 2 ; 1 : 45.
Mr. Ford. May she sit here until I get through so I can accompany
her away from here? . • .i i i a/t
The Chairman. Yes, indeed. You may sit m the back, Mrs.
Fischetti. . , ^■^ ^ ak
(Whereupon, at 11 : 35 a. m. the committee recessed until 1 : 15 p. m.
the same day.)
AFTERNOON SESSION
The Chairman. The committee will be in order.
Mr. Halley. Mrs. Fischetti, will you come up, please i
FURTHEE TESTIMONY OF MES. ANNE FISCHETTI, MIAMI BEACH,
FLA.; ACCOMPANIED BY CHARLES E. FORD, ATTORNEY, WASH-
INGTON, D. C.
The Chairman. The committee will now come to order.
Will you read the last proceedings, Mr. Eeporter ?
Mrs. Fischetti and Mr. Ford, counsel for the committee will ask other
questions, and the chairman will rule out any question that he does not
think is proper. ,-.--, i ^ . n
Let the record show that any question that I do not rule out or tell
the witness not to answer, she is ordered to answer.
It is understood that you are ordered to answer any question that I
do not withdraw from the witness myself.
Mr. Ford. I think she understands that.
The Chairman. You understand?
Mr. Ford. Yes, I understand.
The Chairman. Very well, Mr. Eobinson and Mr. Halley.
Mr. Robinson. Mrs. Fischetti, do you have any children ?
Mrs. Fischetti. I do not. . .
Mr. Robinson. Does your liusband maintain an apartment m Chi-
cago ?
Mrs. Fischetti. I refuse to answer that, because of my marital
status as the wife of Charles Fischetti, and my knowledge that I may
have is confidential, and I may tend to incriminate myself.
Mr. Robinson. Mrs. Fischetti, do you make frequent trips between
Florida and Chicago?
Mrs. Fischetti. I do not.
Mr. Robinson. When was the last time you were in Chicago?
Mrs. Fischetti. In the spring of 1945.
Mr. Robinson. You have not been in Chicago since that time ?
Mrs. Fischetti. I have not. . ^.
Mr. Robinson. Does your husband maintain an apartment m Chi-
cago ?
Mrs. Fischetti. You asked me that, Mr. Robinson.
Mr. Robinson. You did not answer that question.
Mrs. Fischetti. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. May the record clearly show, Mrs. Fischetti, you un-
derstand that the chairman orders you to answer that question?
Mrs. Fischetti. Yes, I understand.
Mr. Halley. Mr. Ford, you understand that that couldn't possibly
be a confidential matter.
252 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN IXITERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Ford. No, I don't understand that.
Mr. Halley. The mere question as to whether Mr. Fischetti main-
tains an apartinent in Chicago, you would say is a confidential matter?
Mr.b ORD. That is correct, between her and him, yes. Of course, she
bases it on two grounds, as you recall.
The Chairman. Yes. She stated the grounds. There is no use
arguing with Mr. Ford back and forth. Let us make our record
Mrs. Fischetti. May I say something to Mr. Ford, please ?
The Chairman. Speak to him if you wish.
(Witness and Mr. Ford conferring.)
Mr. Robinson. How many brothers does your husband have, Mrs
Fischetti ?
Mrs. Fischetti. Two. I am sorry, three.
Mr. Robinson. What are their names?
Mrs. Fischetti. Rocco, Jose])h, and Nicholas.
Mr. Robinson. Where does Rocco live ?
Mrs. Fischetti. I believe he lives here in Chicago.
Mr. Robinson. At what address ?
Mrs. Fischetti. I think 3100 North Sheridan.
Mr. Robinson. Is that a home or an apartment house ?
Mrs. Fischetti. I don't know.
Mr. Robinson. You don't know whether Rocco lives in a residen-
tial home or in an apartment house ?
Mrs. Fischetti. I think I have heard it is an apartment house
JNIr. Robinson. Who told you that ?
Mrs. Fischetti. I refuse to answer that on the grounds previously
Mr. Robinson. What is the other brother's name ?
Mrs. Fischetti. Joseph.
Mr. Robinson. Where does he live ?
Mrs. FiscHEiTi. He stays part of the time at my home in Florida,
ihe rest of the time, I don't know.
Mr. Robinson. Does Rocco stay at your home at times, in Florida «
Mrs. Fischetti. He does not.
Mr. Robinson. Has he ever visited there ?
Mrs. Fischetti. Yes.
Mr. Robinson. How frequently does he visit there ?
Mrs. FiscHEiTi. I refuse to answer that.
Mr. Robinson. Does Joseph visit there? You say he stays there
at times with you ? ^ j
Mrs. Fischetti. Yes.
Mr. Robinson. What business is Rocco in ?
Mrs. Fischetti. I refuse to answer that on the grounds previously
The Chairman. We will let the record show again that the chair-
man orders you to answer, but you refuse to answer, is that correct?
Wait ]ust a minute. This question, and any others that are put to
the witness, which I allow to be put to the witness, she is ordered
to answer That is understood, is it not? You understand that, Mrs.
i^ ischetti ? '
Mrs. Fischetti. Yes. May I say something to Mr. Ford ?
ihe Chapman. You may consult with your attorney whenever
you wish. "^
ORGA^TIZEO CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 253
(Witness and counsel conferring.)
Mrs. FisCHETTi. I don't know.
The Chairman. You do not know what?
Mrs. FiscHETTi. What business Rocco is in.
Mr. Robinson. Wliat business is Joseph in?
ISIrs. FiscHETTi. I don't know.
Mr. Robinson. Is the home in Florida in your name ?
Mrs. FISCHETTI. Yes, it is. . i u i^ 9
Mr. Robinson. Solely in your name, not m your husband s name i
Mrs. FiscHETTi. No, my name.
Mr. Robinson. How long have you owned it?
]Mrs. FiscHETTi. Eleven years.
Mr. Robinson. What did you pay for it?
(Witness and counsel conferring.) ^ . ,
Mrs. FISCHETTI. I refuse to answer that on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Robinson. Do you employ any help at that home ?
Mrs. FiscHETiT. I do.
Mr. Robinson. How many do you employ?
Mrs FiscHETTi. Well, I employ a cook part of the year, and i
employ a— [witness and counsel conferring]— part-time laundress.
Mr. Robinson. What do you pay them? ,
Jklrs. FiscHETTi. I refuse to answer that on the grounds previously
stated
Mr. Robinson. What does it cost you, approximately, a year to
run your household ?
Mrs. FiscHETTi. I refuse to answer that.
Mr. Robinson. Are you employed ?
:Mrs. FiscHETTi. I am not. , . , , . ^ -, k 9
Mr. Robinson. Have you been employed m the past 10 or 15 years «
Mrs. FiscHETTi. I have not.
INIr. Robinson. You have no source of income that you earn Dy
reason of your own ability ?
Mrs. FiscHETTi. I refuse to answer that. • t-i -j 9
Mr Robinson. Whom do you entertain at your home in if lorida ?
Mrs. FiscHETiT. I refuse to answer that, on the grounds previously
stated,
Mr.RoBiNsoN. Do you know Anthony Accardo?
Mrs. FiscHETTi. I refuse to answer that.
Mr. Robinson. Do you know Virginia Hill?
Mrs. FiscHETTi. I do not. ,
Mr. Robinson. You have never met her at any time i
Mrs. FiscHETTi. Never.
Mr. Robinson. Do you make frequent telephone calls from youi
home to Chicago ?
:Mrs. FiscHETii. I refuse to answer that.
Mr. Robinson. Do you own a yacht ?
Mrs. FiscHETTi. I refuse to answer that. .
Mr. Robinson. Do you spend any time on a yacht m l^loriclaJ
Mrs. FiscHETTi. I refuse to answer that. 1 • 171 • i >
Mr Robinson. Have you ever been on any sailing vessel m 1^ londa «
^Irs. FISCHETTI. I refuse to answer that on the grounds previously
stated.
254 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Robinson. What do you pay by way of toll calls, approximately,
a year ?
Mrs. FiscHETTi. I refuse to answer that.
Mr. Robinson. Do you make any expenditures for the operation
of any yacht or sailing vessel or motorboat in Florida ?
Mrs. FiscHETTi. I deline to answer that.
Mr. Robinson. Do you know Louis Campagna or Mrs. Campagna ?
Mrs. FiscHETTi. I refuse to answer that, on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Robinson. Do you know whether or not your husband fre-
quently goes under a different name than Fischetti ?
Mrs. Fischetti. I refuse to answer that.
The Chairman. I did not understand.
Mrs. Fischetti. I decline to answer that. Senator, on the grounds
previously stated.
The Chairman. We will understand that all your refusals to answer
are on the grounds previously stated.
Mrs. Fischetti. Thank you.
Mr. Robinson. Do you own any personal property, Mrs. Fischetti ?
Mrs. Fischetti. I refuse to answer that.
Mr. Robinson. When did you last see Mr. Accardo ?
Mrs. Fischetti. I refuse to answer that.
The Chairman. Let us get on.
Mr. Robinson. That is all I have.
The Chairman. Mr. Halley, do you have any questions?
Mr. Halley. No questions.
The Chairman. I have just one or two, Mrs. Fischetti. Are you
in any business with your husband? That is, do you have any part
ownership of a business with your husband ?
Mrs. Fischetti. I refuse to answer that. Senator.
The Chairman. What businesses does your husband have?
Mrs. Fischetti. I refuse to answer any questions concerning my
husband, because I am his wife, and anything I may know is con-
fidential.
Mr. Halley. You understand that the committee has advised you
that that is not the law ?
Tlie Chairman. That is all right. They understand.
Mrs. Fischetti. Yes, but I believe '
The Chairman. That is all right. We have an understanding about
that.
Was the money for the purchase of the home given to you by Mr.
Fischetti, or did he purchase it for you ?
Mrs. FiscHETT'i. I refuse to answer that.
The Chairman. Do you know where Rocco Fischetti is?
Mrs. Fischetti. I do not.
The Chairman. Where Joseph Fischetti is ?
Mrs. FiscHE'TTi. No, sir.
The Chairman. Where Nicholas Fischetti is ?
Mrs. Fischetti." I refuse to answer that.
The Chairman. Is your husband in partnership with any of his
brothers in any business ?
Mrs. Fischetti. I refuse to answer that.
The Chairman. Do you know where the Vernon Country Club is ?
Mrs. Fischetti. I do not.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 255
The Chairman. The Vernon Club?
Mrs. FiscHETTi. I do not. , , -, - ,. t.
The Chairman. Do you know if your husband owns any interest
in the Vernon Club ?
Mrs. FiscHETTi. I don't.
The Chairman. You say you do not know i
Mrs. FISCHETTI. Well, 1 refuse to answer any questions concerning
mv husband, Senator.
The Chairman. Do you refuse to answer that question, whether
you know whether he owns any part of the Vernon Club ?
Mrs. FISCHETTI. Yes. ,r -r. l ^^ 9
The Chairman. Where did you first know ]Mr. Ford, your attorney?
Mrs. FISCHETTI. He is an old family friend of many years stand-
ing, of mv family. , , . ^ v i
The Chairman. Did your husband contact him for you, or did you
contact him ?
Mrs. FiscHETTi. I did.
The Chairman. He practices law in Washington?
Mrs. FiscHETTi. Yes. • ^, • o
The Chairman. Who is your husband s attorney here m Chicago i
Mrs. FiscHETTi. I don't know.
The Chairman. Who is your husband's attorney m Miami i
Mrs. Fischetti. I don't believe he has any.
The Chairman. Do you know whether he has one or not ?
Mrs. Fischetti. No, I don't. -, . , , ^ q
The Chairman. Where does your husband keep his bank account i
Mrs. Fischetti. I refuse to answer that.
The Chairman. Where do you keep your bank account?
Mrs. FiscHET-ri. I refuse to answer that.
The Chairman. Do you have a bank account ?
Mrs. Fischetti. I refuse to answer that.
The Chairman. Has your husband ever been arrested ?
Mrs. Fischetti. I refuse to answer any question concerning my hus-
band. ^ ^ , , . ,
The Chairman. Do you know whether there are any public records
as to whether your husband has ever been arrested and convicted ?
Mrs. FisciiiKTTi. I refuse to answer that.
The Chairman. :Mrs. Fischetti— I think I might say this to you,
too, Mr. Ford— the committee is only interested in trying to get the
facts which we feel, under our Senate resolution, we are entitled to
fret. From the testimonv here, in the opinion of the chairman, and
the refusal to answer, the complete unwillingness on the part of the
witness to give us information that we feel we are entitled to is quite
apparent. What will be done in this matter will be decided, of course,
by the whole committee. It may be there will be other matters tomor-
row that we will want to ask Mrs. Fischetti about ; so Mrs. Fischetti
will remain under subpena to report back to the committee on to-
morrow. , , , O 0
Mr. Ford. Shall we report back here at 10 o'clock. Senator i
The Chairman. I think if she got back by 11 o'clock, it would be
all right.
Mr. Ford. We shall be here.
The Chahiman. All right. I regi-et the attitude you have taken.
It is very uncooperative, and we will just have to see whose opinion is
correct.
256 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN IKrTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Ford. I want to say we have a lot of respect for your opinion,
Senator.
The Chairman. I appreciate that, Mr. Ford.
Thank you.
(Witness excused.)
The Chairman. You have not been sworn, have you ?
Mr. Gherscovich. No, sir.
The Chairman. INIr. Ghertz, do you solemnly swear the testimony
3^ou will give this committee will be the truth, the wdiole truth, and
nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Gherscovich. I do.
TESTIMONY OF ANTHONY A. GHERSCOVICH, ADMINISTRATIVE
ASSISTANT AND PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR, OFPICE OF STATE'S
ATTORNEY FOR COOK COUNTY, ILL.
The Chairman. Let us get at the point of this right quick.
Mr. Gherscovich. My name is Anthony A. Ghertz. I am also
known as Anthony A. Gherscovich.
Mr. Halley. Your title ?
Mr. Gherscovich. I am administrative assistant, and also Mr.
Boyle's private investigator.
Mr. Halley. On Mr. Boyle's instructions, have you appeared here
with certain records of the State's attorney's office relating to matters
in the jurisdiction of the sheriff of Cook County?
Mr. Gherscovich. I have.
Mr. Halley. Will you state what records you have brought ?
Mr. Gherscovich. I have various records of letters that Mr. Boyle
has sent to the sheriff of Cook County, and letters wdiich he has
received.
Mr. Halley. There is quite a batch of documents there.
Mr. Gherscovich. I have a resume of the whole thing, if you want
to see that.
Mr. Halley. The committee had reference to a particular letter
which Mr. Boyle wrote to the sheriff concerning a car belonging to one
of the deputy sheriffs seen in front of a gambling place. Do you have
that letter?
Mr. Gherscovich. Yes, we have. We wrote a number of letters to
the sheriff. That was on June 29.
The Chairman. June 29, what year?
Mr. Gherscovich. 1949.
Mr. Halley. Do you have an answer from the sheriff on that?
Perhaps we can save time.
Mr. Gherscovich. Here it is.
Mr. Halley. Did you personally observe a car of a deputy sheriff
about which this letter of June 29 is written ?
Mr. Gherscovich. I did. On the date of that letter, I visited the
place at Narragansett, 4416 Narragansett.
Mr. Halley. On June 28, 1949 ?
Mr. Ghersco\t[ch. That is right.
Mr. Halley. Was there a handbook operating there ?
Mr. Gherscovich. There was a handbook operating.
The Chairman. Where is that? Is that in any municipality or
out in the country ?
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 257
Mr. Gherscovich. It is Norwood Park Township, an unincorpo-
rated area. n nr tj n^,r
car parked, the license ""'"'f !' ^f^ff ^^.^'^.TikI ^^^^^^^ Sued to
r^:;;!t^^reS;SBi:rshi"l3^rLiAdenStreet,Winnetka,
"jlr. Hallbt. I notice yon didn't mention that in the letter to the
'' mI'^Gherscovich. No. We checked that after we wrote the letter.
mI- Ks^covioH.- The other depnty was Depnty Walter Little.
^M^'haIe" Toffer in evidence the entire batch of letters so the
committee can take any action It desires. , ., .. ^ ,0 and also
The Chairman. That will be received as exhibit iNo. IJ, ana aiso
'' (SXcm^enJr^Wd to .ere identified as exhibit No 29, and
we -e retunied to the witness after analysis by the con.nn ee.)
Mr. Halley. For present purposes will J^^^ take out a lettei ot
September 9, 1949, relating to gambling m Calumet Cuy, and the
reply of September 13, 1919 ?
^. gS:rSrt{ro'f"se;te,nber 9, and the reply is Septem-
Mr. Gherscovich. September 9.
Mr. Halley. Can we have the entire file m evidence
Mr. Gherscovich. I will give you the entire sheriff s hie.
Mr. Halley. The entire file of letters.
Mr. Gherscovich. All right, sir. ,..i fLof will
Mr. Halley. Just put them back m the envelope, and that ^ill
'llr' Gherscovich. Here is a letter of November 1. October 25,
194^1 iSnaly went into Calumet City at 11:15 f night to ob-
serve crap names, and I went into the Club Riptide and Club Eendez-
vous a'ld sJnv crap i^ames in operation. At the saine time, I saw the
IheHff's squad car, the sheriff of Cook County, License ^o. M-515o
paXh While I was in town I investigated these places. And I
"" iTll : 35^1 noticed two sheriff's men get in their squad car and
leave Thev came from State Street. . ^j
Mr. Halley. Did you have no authority to issue a warrant and
"" Mr GHERscm-iCH. I was alone. We don't make a practice of going
out and making raids alone. After we make an investigation e
next night or a'couple of nights after that we go out and make the
Mr. Halley. Did you do that?
Mr Gherscovich. We did. We made numerous raids. The last
raid at Calumet City was a week ago Friday. ,,
Mr HvLLEY. Is there anything else you particulaHy want to call
attention to, because the committee is trying to cover a lot of witnesses.
We can study the file.
258 ORGANIZED CRIMEi EST ITsTTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Ghekscovich. If yon study the file, it will ^ive you a good
i-esume of the letters that we sent to the sheriff, and which we received
from the sheriff.
Back in March of 1949 and April 1949, 1 had occasion to go to 4817
West Sixty-fifth Street, in Stickney Townsliip, and there I met sheriff's
police out in front of the place, and saw them, and they stayed there
until the races were over, and watched people coming out of the tavern.
Mr. Halley. Did they have, a horse book in the tavern? Did you
go in and look?
Mr. Ghekscovich. A number of times I went in there. I couldn't
go when the sheriff's men were in there. They wouldn't let me in.
But I stood there and watched people go in.
Another time— there is a letter we received on a deputy there. I
talked to him about the people running a book, and he said "No." I
went into the tavern and saw people in the tavern, and we made a sur-
veillance of the place for about half an hour before, and counted 20
people going m. I called attention to it, and said "20 people went in,
and there are only 8 people in the tavern." I said, "Wliere did they
disappear to?" He said, "There is nothing going on while you are
here. ' I waited until after the races were over, and saw the people
coming out m droves, about 60 people by count.
Mr. Halley. Doesn't your office have authority to do anvthinff
about that ? j j &>
Mr. Gherscovich. You see, our policemen are city policemen.
There are only a couple of men who are coroners, which might give
them authority. In the unincorporated areas, it is the sheriff's duty
to go m there. That was brought out in the trial of Chief Wlekinski
and Chief Wigglesworth.
Mr. Halley. Is Calumet City an incorporated area?
Mr. Gherscovich. Incorporated.
Mr. Halley. Is it the sheriff's duty to go in there, too?
Mr. Gherscovich. No. It is an incorporated area, and they have
their own police department. They are supposed to go in when law
enforcement breaks down.
Mr. Halley. In addition to the letters, do you have any other rec-
ords that you want to present to the committee ?
Mr Gherscovich. I believe yesterday you asked Mr. Boyle regard-
ing the chief of Calumet City, whose name was Wlekinski.
The Chairman. Before you get to the chief of Calumet City, there
IS some testimony or statement that your office, Mr. Boyle's office,
started raiding and confiscating slot machines in November, 1949, and
at that time the sheriff quit raiding slot machines. Do you have any
correspondence with reference to that, or do you know anything
about it ? -^ J &
Mr. Gherscovich. Slot machines ?
The Chairman. That is, gambling devices.
Mr. Gherscovich. The raids that we made?
The Chairman. Is there any correspondence about why Mr. Boyle
started and why the sheriff stopped raiding them at that time «
Mr. Gherscovich. We started the raids on slot machines because
they were going wide open in the county, and nothing was being done
We were notifying the sheriff prior to that, and the other chiefs of
the various villages, about slot machines in their villao-es. Nothing
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 259
was being done, so we went in and took it upon ourselves. We made
the investiofations and went out and made the raids.
The Chairman. All right. Go ahead with Calumet City.
Mr. Halley. You were going to tell about the chief of police of
Calumet City. Was there any point you wanted to make, except the
name ?
Mr. Gherscovich. I just wanted to bring his name out.
The Chairman. What is his name ?
Mr. Gherscovich. Henry A. Wlekinski.
Mr. Halley. What records do you have there with you that you
want to })resent to the committee ? We have the letters.
The Chairman. Is he still the chief of police of Calumet City?
Mr. Gherscovich. Yes, he is.
The Chairman. Is he the one who was tried for nonfeasance in
office ?
Mr. Gherscovich. That is right, sir.
The Chairman. Do you have any correspondence with him?
Mr. Gherscovich. Yes, sir. He gave a statement before the grand
jury, and also a statement to Mr. Boyle.
The Ciiair:man. Let us see the statement to Mr. Boyle.
Mr. Gherscovich. These are the grand jury statements [producing
documents.]
The Chairman. Let these be made exhibit Xo. 30 without being
copied in the record.
(Exhibit Xo. 30 is on file with the committee.)
Mr. Gherscovich. Here is a resume of all of our activities in the
past year as to raids.
Mr. Halley. May that be accepted in evidence ?
The Chairman. That will be made exhibit No. 31 without being
copied into the record.
(Exhibit No. 31 is on file with the committee.)
Mr. Gherscovich. That shows our raids and what we have been
doing. It is an index of it. We have the reports on that.
Mr. Halley. Is there anything else you would like to ])resent ? You
were going to give us the file of letters. May we have that?
Mr. Ghersovich. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. Do you need it for your current work ?
Mr. Gherscovich. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. It will be carefully taken care of.
Mr. Gherscovich. I will leave the whole file with you.
Mr. Halley. Thank you.
I know you have taken a lot of trouble and brought a lot of records
in here. If you will tell us what they are, perhaps the committee
would want to know about them.
Mr. Gherscovich. I have a Melrose Park file, on the Lumber Gar-
dens, which was operated by Kocco De Grazia. We tried the chief of
Melrose Park for nonfeasance.
Mr. Halley. Can you let the committee have that file for a short
while ?
The Chairman. Who is the chief of Melrose Park?
Mr. Gherscovich. Kobert Wigglesworth.
The Chairman. What happened to the trial?
Mr. Gherscovich. He was found not guilty by jury.
260 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
The Chairman. Will you relate very briefly what this transaction
grew out of ?
Mr. Gherscovich. We were making numerous investigations as to
gambling in Melrose Park, and this Lumber Gardens.
The Chairman. What is the name of the Gardens ?
Mr. Cherscovich. Lumber Gardens, and the Casa Madrid.
The Chairman. Who owned it ?
Mr. Gherscovich. Kocco De Grazia.
The Chairman. Rocco De Grazia. What is his other alias ?
Mr. Gherscovich. I don't think he has any. This is a picture of
the Lumber Gardens.
The Chairman. Is that a picture of Lumber Gardens ?
Mr. Gherscovich. That is Lumber Gardens. The big building is
the Casa Madrid, and the other is Lumber Gardens.
The Chairman. Did Mr. Boyle's group raid Lumber Gardens ?
Mr. Gherscovich. No, sir. We investigated the sheriff about
Lumber Gardens, and also Chief Wigglesworth. We wrote numerous
letters to them in reference to the Lumber Gardens.
The Chairman. Nothing was done about it, so the chief of police
was indicted for nonfeasance ?
Mr. Gherscovich. Failure to act.
The Chairman. And tried before a jury, and released?
Mr. Gherscovich. Found not guilty.
Mr. Halley. Did he testify in his own behalf ?
Mr. Gherscovich. Yes ; I jjelieve he did.
Mr. Halley. Did he admit or deny that the place was operating as
a gambling place?
Mr. Gherscovich. His excuse was that he never had a sufficient
number of men, that he was sick and ailing, and he couldn't take the
job over personally, and he was short of men, the same as at Calumet
City ; Wlekinski said he was short of men.
Mr. Halley. Thank you.
The Chairman. What else do you have there ?
Mr. Gherscovich. I will leave the Melrose Park file and the Calu-
met City file. There are pictures here of the Calumet City places, too.
The Chairman. Let us see the pictures of the Calumet City places.
Mr. Gherscovich. I was in on the investigation of Calument City
last September. I was making investigations of Calument City my-
self. I would go out to the town. When I hit the town I always man-
aged to get two spots where a crap game was in progress but I was
known, and by the time I got to the others they had shut down.
About the county, now, everybody knows me, but I still go out and
make the raids.
These files are self-explanatory as to the reports and as to the letters
we have written and the court files.
Mr. Halley. Fine.
The Chairman. We appreciate very much, Mr. Ghertz, your com-
ing in.
Mr. Gherscovich. The other records that we have here are to the
various other chiefs of police of Blue Island, whom Mr. Boyle called
in, and Phoenix. Would you want those records ?
The Chairman, Tell us about what the transactions were.
Mr. Gherscovich. We made investigations in almost all of the towns
in the county and all the unincorporated areas. Where we found
O'RGANTZEO CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 261
gambling to exist, Mr. Bo_yle then called in the various chiefs of police
of the respective communities and told them to have all gambling cease.
The Chairman. Describe the towns you have over there in the file,
without getting the files out, if you can.
Let the record show the witness
Mr. Gherscovicii. The record would show on this resume sheet.
The Chairman. Let the record show the witness has brought m
voluminous files showing correspondence and transactions with the
police departments of the various towns in Cook County outside of
Chicago ; is that correct ?
Mr. Gherscovich. That is right, sir.
The Chairman. Anything else, Mr. Halley or Mr. Robinson?
Mr. Halley. No, sir.
The Chairman. All right, sir, we Avill get these back to you.
Mr. Gherscovich. I have two indictment sheets that come out of
our file. Would you want that?
The Chairman. I do not think so.
Mr. Gherscovich. On Wigglesworth and Wlekinski.
The Chairman. That is what they were charged with ?
Mr. Gherscovich. That is right, sir.
The Chairivian. Leave those with these statements which were filed.
Mr. Gherscovich. We still continue our job on raiding the slot
machines.
The Chairman. You keep on going after them? You are doing
all right, we hope.
Mr. Gherscovich. Besides that, we also make vice raids and check
on minors, which it isn't our clut}^ to do. It is up to the sheriffs and
other police chiefs to do, and we have to go out to check taverns for
minors. It requires a lot of work, and we are short of men, too.
Mr. Robinson. In the course of these raids on gambling places, do
you find who the owner is ?
Mr. Gherscovich. The owners are seldom present. They always
have a cashier in charge, or some floor man.
Mr. Robinson. What I am getting at, have you found any indica-
tion of these hoodlums being interested or being owners of any of these
places ?
Mr. Gherscovich. The only names I have got on ownei^ of places
are 48 and 1719 West Fifty-sixth Street. Mix Novak, at 810 South
Des Plaines, and 9702 South Western was Andrew Red Creighton.
Mr. Kerner. Those are all recognized names and came out in the
Skidmore matter.
Mr. Gherscovich. Rocco De Grazia in Melrose Park, Lumber
Gardens.
The Chairman. How about this place, the Vernon Countrj?- Club ?
Mr. Gherscovich. That is out of the county.
The Chairman. That is over in Lake County ?
Mr. Gherscovich. Yes; thank God.
The Chairman. Do you know who owns that ?
Mr. Gherscovich. No.
The Chairman. Does it still operate ?
]\Ir. Gherscovich. I never check into Lake County.
The Chairman. How about Gizzo and Fischetti ? Have you found
any places that you could trace the ownership to them ?
Mr. Gherscovich. As to ownership, you can never trace it.
The Chairman. Why ?
262 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Gherscovich, We go into these places, and the men we see
around, and from our conversations in making investigations, and all
of our investigators are pretty well known in there, and in talking
with the patrons, it seems that the people running the places are
always the cashier or a floor man. As to the owners, they don't know.
The Chairman. Let us get it a little bit further. This fellow
Creighton, is he a w^ell-known racketeer here in the Chicago area?
Mr. Gherscovich. Andrew Creighton formerly operated a hand-
book, managed handbooks.
The Chairman. Is he still living?
Mr. Gherscovich. He is.
The Chairman. What does he do now ?
Mr. Gherscovich. Operating a handbook.
The Chairman. Where?
Mr. Gherscovich. Forest Park, and 9702 Southwest.
The Chairman. Does he have a criminal record ?
Mr. Gherscovich. I don't think he has.
The Chairman. Then this fellow Rocco De Grazia, is he a well-
known racketter in this area, or do you know ?
Mr. Gherscovich. That I don't know. I can only get from the
newspaper
The Chairman. Who was the third one you mentioned ?
Mr. Gherscovich. Mix Novack, Tom Mix Novack.
The Chairman. What does he do ?
Mr. Gherscovich. He is reputed to be a handbook operator at
4819 West Sixty-fifth.
The Chairman. Is he a well-known character about Cook County ?
Mr. Gherscovich. All I know is that he operates a handbook. I
don't know anything about these people, their background.
The Chairman. But you found one of these places was owned by
him?
Mr. Gherscovich. Reputedly owned by him. It is the talk that he
owns it.
The Chairman. All right, thank you, sir.
(Witness excused.)
PURTHER TESTIMONY OE ELMER MICHAEL WALSH, SHERIFF,
COOK COUNTY, ILL., ACCOMPANIED BY MAURICE L. GREENE,
CHIEF, COOK COUNTY HIGHWAY POLICE
Mr. Robinson. Sheriff, do you recall this letter ?
The Chairman. Let us identify the date. This letter of June 29,
1949, to you from Mr. Boyle.
Sheriff Walsh. Yes, I do.
Mr. Robinson. Do you recall what action was taken with respect
to that letter?
Sheriff Walsh. I wouldn't remember offliand without getting my
records. I have Chief Greene here, who is outside, the chief of my
highway police, and if I can get those records in, I can tell you what
action we took.
The Chairman. Let us get the chief in.
Sheriff Walsh. He is right outside.
ORGAMZED CRIME m INTERSTATE COMMERCE 263
My recollection is that we raided this place about 20 times.
This is Chief Greene, gentlemen.^
The Chairman. How are you, Chief? .
Chief, do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give this com-
mittee will be the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you
God?
Mr. Greene. I do. „ , ^ , ^ ^ -rr- i
The Chairman. You are the chief of the Cook County Highway
Police?
Mr. Greene. Yes, sir. ^, ^ 4.1
Sheriff Walsh. Chief, can you tell us the number of times that the
handbook at 4819 West Sixty-fifth Street was raided, offhand, accord-
ing to our records ? , • i i t
Mr. Greene. I don't know that I have that particular place, i
think it is in the other file. .n^^ ttt ^ c- ..
The record here discloses the Hill Top, and also 4817 West Sixty-
fifth Street, which is operated by the same people. You raid them
here and you will find them the next day perhaps over at the other
place. We have taken the Hill Top 12 times, according to this record,
and 4817 10 times. . r., -^ -r^ 1
Mr. Robinson. Let me ask this question. Sheriff: Do you make any
effort to raid gambling places in incorporated towns ? _
Sheriff Walsh. Yes. I want to correct any impression yesterday
that we don't make any raids in incorporated towns, because we do.
As a matter of fact, Chief Greene reminded me after I left here yes-
terday that we have made more raids in incorporated towns than we
have in unincorporated towns.
Do you have the figures there. Chief ? . n , j
In incorporated towns we have made 806 raids, and we have made
670 raids in unincorporated towns.
The Chairman. Six hundred seventy ?
Sheriff Walsh. Six hundred seventy.
Mr. Robinson. Do you recall its ever having been brought to your
attention that some of your deputies were at those locations?
Sheriff Walsh. Yes; I do. I remember that. On one occasion
particularly, up at the Wagon Wheel, which we have raided.
Mr. Greene. Twenty times.
Sheriff Walsh. Twenty times. ^ , , r^ • s^ r^
One of my squad cars was seen there. I asked Chief Greene to
check it ; and will you tell what you found ? ', .
Mr. Greene. That is the late date, the last one we had. As soon as
we secured information regarding that place, that it was 111 opera-
tion—some days and some weeks they wouldn't be there at all— when
they came back, we put a detail there. This particular day we secured
information that the lieutenant took the place of the regular squad.
That information we secured, so we let the lieutenant go. \V e sus-
pended him and let him out, because we don't condone that kind ot
situation. That is what happened at that particular place.
Sheriff Walsh. I remember calling in the lieutenant and discuss-
ing it with him, and he denied that the place was m operation on that
date. I said, "The State's attorney wrote me a letter and said it was
in operation, and your instructions from Chief Greene were to post
a detail there to stay there and see they didn't even open, and it was
your responsibility up in that district to do that." So he said they
264 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN IKiTERSTATE COMMERCE
Avere not going that day, regardless of the letter that came from the
State's attorney. So, I immediately suspended him and took him
out of police work entirely. He is no longer with me any more.
Mr. Robinson. How many deputies or investigators from your
office have been suspended?
Sheriff Walsh. I think we had one other on Sixty-fifth Street;
isn't that right, Chief?
Mr. Greene. Yes. We received a letter in that regard, too. It
was operating at the same time the squad was supposed to be there.
But there are eight different places in that block that they can func-
tion. It is a whole big corner, Sixty-fifth Street, and then Cicero
is the other way. Hill Top is at the end of the street, and this tavern
is at that end. But there is a grocery and a dairy and tliere are two
homes. They are so situated that they can operate in any of these
eight places. It is humanly impossible, sometimes, for one squad to
go around and find out, because definitely the place is closed if you
look at it. It is a difficult corner there at times.
The Chairman. When a raid is conducted, do you take out all the
equipment and everything they have there?
Mr. Greene. Everything that they have in there.
The Chairman. Isn't it possible to padlock the place ?
Sheriff Walsh. No; we don't have injunction proceedings in this
State, Senator. I understand the Chicago Crime Commission is work-
ing on a bill now to have the same injunctive procedure as we had
here during the prohibition days when Federal prohibition w^as in
force here.
I remember another lieutenant that we suspected was not doing
his job. I called him in. I told him we weren't satisfied with the
way he was keeping gambling down in the 'district he w^as in. I
broke him from a lieutenant to a sergeant, and then he left my force
shortly after that, about a year ago.
Mr. Robinson. Those are the only three instances ?
Sheriff Walsh. Yes.
]\Ir. Greene. That is all.
Mr. Halley. Have you any jurisdiction over Calumet City?
Sheriff Walsh. The primary jurisdiction in Calumet City is on
their own police force there, but I have raided Calumet City through
my police force. Chief Greene here, many, many times. I think we
have a total number of raids in Calumet City since I have been sheriff,
40 slot machines, 35 books, 22 miscellaneous arrests, crap games, card
games, punchboards, and strip-tease violations, a total of about 97.
Calumet City has always been a sore spot here in Cook County with
us. It is a hot spot. It is the steel-mill district. It has always been
a sore spot to us.
I remember one occasion that I myself, personally, went out there —
the only way I can possibly conduct a raid in a big town like Calumet
City, because of the system they have for warning the minute the
squad car comes in that town. They have a warning system there
which tips them all off and everything goes down immediately.
Mr. Halley. Do you have to use squad cars ?
Sheriff Walsh. We use private cars when we can. We don't have
private cars, Mr. Halley. We have to use squad cars.
On this one raid that I participated in personally and directed it,
which was when Chief Johnson was with me, I took men from other
ORGAlSriZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 265
departments in my office, when they finished their regular work, and
asked them to help me out. I spent 3 weeks planning the raid. As a
result of that, I had 40 men in this raid. We came in through Indiana
in order to effect the raid. I think that time we made about 35
arrests.
I wrote to the mayor of Calumet City at least a dozen letters,
apprising him of the situation out there, telling him to have his police
force do their job.
Mr. Halley. I have before me two letters from j'ou to the State's
attorney of Cook County, one of September 13, 1949, in which you say,
and I quote :
With reference to dice games operating in Calumet City, this information was
forwarded by Chief Greene to the lieutenant in charge of the Homewood
Station of the Cook County Highway Police. He visited tlie locations named in
the letter, and also other establishments on the streets of Calumet City. No
games were in operation Friday, September 9, 10, or up to the present date,
September 13. "We have squads assigned to that territory to keep a constant
check on gaming of any kind in the Calumet City area.
Did your subsequent experience indicate to you that the informa-
tion you received, referred to in this letter, was wrong ?
Sheriff Waksh. What was the date on that?
Mr. Halley. September 13, 1949.
Sheriff Walsh. Could you answer that?
Mr. Gkeexe. Maybe you have it in here.
I\Ir. Halley. That is your letter.
The Chairman. Here is the letter, if you want to see it.
Sheriff Walsh. Yes, but we have letters here which will answer
that, I believe. Senator.
Mr. Halley. I notice on November 1, after the district attorney
then called to your attention that one of your squad cars was seen in
Calumet City, you then wrote another letter saying that you have
found gambling there; that you had written another registered let-
ter to the ma3^or urging revocation of licenses of four clubs. I think
you also said that whoever in your office was there must have been
making a routine investigation.
The Chairman. What is the date of that letter?
Mr. Halley. This is November 1, 1949.
Sheriff Walsh. I remember that letter. I have a copy of it in my
files. I also wrote a letter to Wlekinski on the same date, who is
the mayor of Calumet City. I said :
About 10 days ago I wrote a registered letter informing you an investigator
of the State's attorney's office had reported a handbook in operation at the
Owl Club at Douglas and Plummer Streets in Calumet City, and asked that
you take proper and necessary action. Since that time, highway police from
my office have raided the Owl Club, also known as the Cozy Corner, and found
a book in operation, and arrested the operators.
My records further indicate that this office has previously made 7 raids, 33
arrests, and that on March 23, 1949, I wrote you another registered letter
recommending that the license issued to this establishment be revoked because
of repeated gambling violations. A copy of this letter was also sent to the
Honorable John S. P^osdick, district attorney.
I again urge that my original recommendation pertaining to the revocation
of the license of this tavern be carried out at this time.
The State's attorney informed me that his investigator also reported gambling
at the Riptide Club, 101 South State Street; the Rendezvous Club, 100 State
Street; and the Four Aces at 206 State Street. My records also indicate that
68958—51 — pt. 5 18
266 ORGANIZED CRIMD IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
sheriff's police raifled the Riptide Club for gambling operations on December 6,
11)47, and again on February 6, 1949, resulting in convictions and tines. Like-
wise, the Kendezvous Club was raided by the sheriff's police on December 6,
1948, and resulted in a conviction, as well as the Four Aces Club on July 1, 1947,
and on May 26, 1947, all of which resulted in convictions of gambling violations.
I therefore also recommend that the license be revoked of the Riptide Club
and the Rendezvous Club and the Four Aces.
Mr. Halley. In view of your strong findings tliat tliere was
gambling in Calumet City, would it be your view that the information
you received from your lietitenant in charge of the Homewood Station,
referred to in the letter of September lo, saying that no games were
in operation on September 9 through 13, would be rights Does that
sound reasonable ?
Sheriff Walsh. The man in charge of that station, I called him in
and asked for his resignation.
Mr, Halley. Did you get it ?
Sheriff Walsh. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Is that one of the three ?
Sheriff Walsit. No ; that is another one. I forgot about it.
Mr. Halley. When did you again make a raid in Calumet City?
The Chairman. About how long ago ?
Mr. Greene. We have the arrest slip here — "8-17-50, the 34 Club,
Calumet City, raided as a book."
The Chairman. August 17, 1950?
Mr. Greene. Yes. That is the last date that a raid was made in
Calumet City.
Mr. Halley. Chief, what was your prior experience before becom-
ing head of the county highway patrol ?
Mr. Greene. I have been in this department for 9 years.
Mr. Halley. Sheriff's department?
Mr. Greene. That is right. I also was in the Parole Office of the
State of Illinois, and I worked for the Government prior to that.
Mr. Halley. AVhat government ?
Mr. Greene. The Department of Commerce.
Mr. Halley. In what capacity had you worked for the Department
of Commerce?
Mr. Greene. Some work in the Census Bureau. They had some
work there.
Mr. Halley. Then you went to work for the parole office ?
Mr. Greene. Parole office.
Mr. Halley. Which parole office ?
Mr. Greene. The State of Illinois.
Mr. Halley. What type of work did you do there?
Mr. Greene. Investigator and parole agent.
Mr. Halley. Then you went to the sheriff's office?
Mr. Greene. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Seven years ago ?
Mr. Greene. Nine years ago. I have been here 9 years.
Mr. Halley. Which sheriff appointed you ?
Mr. Greene. O'Brien. I have been here under five sheriffs now:
O'Brien ; Carey — Carey died ; Brodie took over, as the coroner ; then
Mulcahy came in ; and Sheriff Walsh.
Mr. Halley. Had you served on the highway police under all those
sheriffs?
Mr. Greene. That is right.
ORGAlSriZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 267
Mr. Halley. How long have you been chief of the highway police?
Mr. Greene. June 2, 1949, 1 took over.
Mr. Halley. AVhat had been your job before June 2, 1949?
Mr. Gkeene. I was working in the sheriff's office on the fourth floor
for a year prior to that, and before that I wasn't connected with the
sheriff's office. I wasn't feeling too well, either. I left there. It was
the political set-up why I left there, more or less.
Mr. Halley. When did you leave the sheriff's office?
^Ir. Greene. The first of the year, 1948.
Mr. Halley. What do you mean by the "political set-up"?
Mr. Greene. Well, I wasn't sponsored right, and that was the rea-
son for my being let out at that time.
Mr. Halley. Who let you out ?
Mr. Greene. The sheriff here.
]\Ir. Halley. Why weren't you sponsored right ?
Mr. Greene. That is the way the word came down the line.
Mr. Halley. Who were you sponsored by ?
Mr, Greene. By my ward organization.
Mr. Halley. What ward?
Mr. Greene. The fortieth ward. Originally I came in sponsored,
when I first took the job, under a Democratic regime, and I had to
have a Republican sponsor to stay in this office after the sheriff took
office.
Mr. Halley. Then you came back in July 1949 ?
]Mr. Greene. No I came back 4 months after I went out, January,
February, March, April — about April of 1948 — and I went to work on
the fourth floor as a writ server.
Mr. Halley. Had you found a Republican sponsor?
Mr, Greene. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Who sponsored you ?
Mr. Greene. Originally, or this Republican?
Mr. Halley. The second time.
Mr. Greene. George Ibsen. He is the Republican ward committee-
man of the fortieth ward.
Mr. Halley. When you left the office in 1948, what was your
position ?
Mr. Greene. I was acting lieutenant, Homewood.
Mr. Halley. In the highway police ?
Mr. Greene. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. How long had you held that position ?
Mr. Greene. I would say about 10 months.
Mr. Halley. About 10 months?
Mr. Greene. Yes.
Mr. Halley. How long, altogether, had you been in the highway
police up to 1948?
Mr. Greene. Up until 1948? It would be 61^ or 7 years.
Mr. Halley. All spent in the highway police ?
Mr. Greene. Yas; I was a deputy, sergeant, and lieutenant. I
worked my way all the way through.
Mr. Halley. Sheriff, I believe you were asked to bring some records
as to your income.
Sheriff Walsh. Xo ; I wasn't.
. Mr. Halley. You were not?
Sheriff' Walsh. No.
268 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Halley. Could 3' on state what your income has been in the hist
4 years?
The Chairman. Before you get on to that, let me ask the chief a
question or two.
I do not think you are ever going to get any real law enforce-
ment in the county as long as you have this ward-sponsorship system
and a complete turn-over of personnel every time you have a new
sheriif, and the division of responsibility between the municipalities,
the sheriif's office, and the State's attorney's office. It looks to me
like one awful mess.
You were in there, and then you had another sheriff. Sheriff Walsh
came along and you did not have the right sponsorship, so, without
any hard feelings, you were just out ?
Mr. Greene. That is true; that is politics. My department is
quite
The Chairman. Then you looked around and got another sponsor.
Who is Mr. Ibsen ? '
Mr, Greene. He is the Republican ward committeeman in the same
ward, the fortieth ward, Avhere I came from originally sponsored
under the Democratic regime when I came to this office.
The Chairman. What business is he in ?
Mr. Greene. He is chief bailiff of the criminal court. He is with
the sheriff's office.
Mr. Robinson. Any relation to Joe Epstein?
The Chairman. It is I-b-s-e-n ?
Mr. Greene. I-b-s-e-n, George Ibsen.
The Chairman. How do you get somebody to sponsor you like
that ? Is there any money ever passed ?
Mr. Greene. No, sir. The precinct captain — that is what I have
been, precinct captain, and carried a pretty good one. He just wanted
me over on his side. He saw I was in this job, and the job was a Re-
publican office now, and I liked the work and wanted to stay. He
decided to take me over and go into his organization. That is where
the letter of sponsorship came through.
The Chairman. You mean the precinct captain? Who was he?
Mr. Greene. I was the precinct captain, and in order — I was a
Democratic precinct captain for some years, and I stayed through the
Democratic regimes, these four sheriffs ; and then Sheriff Walsh came
in, and it was a Republican regime.
The Chairman. Did you take your precinct, then, ov^er to the Re-
publican organization ?
Mr. Greene. That is right.
The Chairman. How do you do that ; just take it over ?
Mr. Greene. Well, you live in a place for so many years, the people
know you, and eventually you go out, just like a salesman trying to
sell. Instead of merchandise, you sell a candidate, whoever you are
going out politically for.
The Chairman. So when you got a Republican sheriff, you just took
your organization over to the Republicans?
Mr. Greene. That is right.
The Chairman. How many people do you vote in your precinct?
Mr. Greene. Five hundred twenty.
The Chairman. What precinct is that?
Mr. Greene. Fortj^-fifth precinct of the fortieth ward.
ORGAN^IZED CRIME IN IXTEESTATE COMMERCE 269
Tlie Chairman. I thought you said Mr. Ibsen was in the forty-
fourth ward.
Mr. Greene. In the fortieth, sir.
The Chairman. You vote how many people in your precinct?
]\Ir. Greene. In an election ?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Greene. As high as 450 in an election.
The Chairman. How mau}^ of them can you carry ?
Mr. Greene. I don't carry too many. I carry about 50 or 60 votes.
The Chairman. You carry 50 or 60 either way ?
Mr. Greene. Well, it was a little more the other way, before.
The Chairman. You used to carry a little better Democratic than
3^ou could Republican?
Mr. Greene. Those were different years, too. I guess times were
a litle different, too. When Roosevelt was there, it made a difference,
too.
The Chairman. So a lot of people just follow you, whatever your
personal wishes are?
Mr. Greene. Well, sort of friendly. If there is any advice or any
help I can give them, I am ever grateful to do it.
The Chairman. What sheriff' put you in first?
Mr. Greene. O'Brien.
The Chairman. Was he a Republican or Democrat?
Mr. Greene. Democrat. He is a Congressman now.
The Ch^virman. "VYliat is his first name ?
Mr. Greene. Thomas O'Brien.
The Chairman. That was in 1942 ?
Mr. Greene. Yes, that is right. That is when he came in.
The Chairman. What would happen if, when you got to be sheriff,
you said, "It may have been run under the spoils system in the past
but I am going to keep good people in here, and am not going to
look at their politics in the matter.'* What would happen to you ?
Sheriff Walsh. Of course, when you are selected as the candidate,
you have to make a pledge that you will hire Republicans.
The Chairman. To wJiom do you make your pledge?
Sheriff Walsh. To the county central committee.
The Chairman. If you do not make a pledge, then you are in the
dog house from then on ?
Sheriff Walsh. You probably wouldn't be selected.
The Chairman. If you make the pledge and then do not work out
that way
Sheriff Walsh. I insisted on taking care of World War II vets in
my campaign, and as I think I testified yesterday, I have over 60 per-
cent of my highway police as World War II vets, and most of those
did not come through the political organizations.
The Chairman. What sort of pledge do you have to take ? Do you
hold up your hand and swear ?
Sheriff Walsh. No, sir, nothing like that. You just agree that you
will hire Republicans.
The Chairman. If they are behind you, you will hire Republicans
and clear it with the w^ard committeemen^
Sheriff Walsh. Yes, and they have the same system in the
Democrats.
270 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INITERSTATE COMMERCE
The Chairman. Democrat or Republican, it is not a very good way
to run a law-enforcement agency.
Sheriff Walsh. That is right. I recommended that the highway
police be civil service. I am in favor of it, and I have been in favor of
it within 6 months after taking office.
The Chairman. Excuse me, Mr. Halley. I interrupted you.
Mr. Halley. In addition to your income as sheriff, have you had
any other income in the last 4 years ?
Sheriff Walsh. My salary is about $10,000 a year, $9,960 to be
exact. I was in the service for 49 months from 1942 to 1945, and I
immediately came out and didn't have a chance to pick up the threads
of my law practice. I went right into the sheriff's office. I was elected
in that first campaign. My only income after I got out of the service
was from some of my old clients, where lawyers were handling my
work for me. I think it dwindled down, and each year it got less,
because I had lost contact with them.
I would say that maybe the first year I got out, when I got back
from the Army, approximately $2,500 or $3,000. The next year it
was about a thousand dollars less; and the last year, my last income
tax, I think was around $1,400.
Mr. Halley. Did you have any other income except that ?
Sheriff Walsh. I had a little income from stocks and bonds, but
not an appreciable amount.
Mr. Halley. What was the total amount you reported in 1949, for
the year 1949 ?
Sheriff Walsh. Let's see, $10,000 plus about $1,400; maybe 2,100
or $2,200. That would be the size of my salary, approximately.
Mr. Halley. You mean $700 or $800 would be income from stocks
and bonds ?
Sheriff Walsh. Yes ; all other income.
Mr. Halley. Are you a man of any substantial wealth?
Sheriff Walsh. No; I am not. I have a family of four. A son at
Annapolis Naval Academy. I have a son in the Air Force now, a
second lieutenant ; two daughters.
I sold my home before I was elected sheriff. I live in a home out on
the South Shore. The house is vacant now. I also own a place in
Michigan, a summer place which I built 13 years ago, a summer cot-
tage right around the lake.
Mr. Halley. Have you acquired any property in the last 4 years ?
Sheriff Walsh. No ; I have not.
Mr. Halley. In connection with the slot-machine seizures, could
you state how many seizures were made each year? I think you have
given the committee a total of 1,400. Could you break that down by
years ?
Sheriff Walsh. Maybe Chief Greene can do that better than me.
Mr. Greene. It is a hard thing to decide. There is no equal amount
that you ever take. All Ave do is keep them for a certain length of
time, and then destroy them. As far as knowing the actual amount,
since I have been here I have destroyed close to 600 ; since I have been
chief I have destroyed that many.
Mr. Halley. Can you account for the fact that the county attorney's
office, in the same period, was able to go out and find about the same
number ?
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 271
Mr. Greene. That is according to their figure. I guess that is it.
I wouldn't know.
Sheriff Walsh. I would like to make an observation on that.
Mr. Hakley. Would you, please'^
Sheriff Walsh. The State's attorney, of course, according to the
press, has Chicago policemen who went out to do this work, 70 police-
men. We couldn't get 70 men to go out on a gambling raid, no matter
what we tried to do, except if we took them from other departments,
and their work would suffer by it. He had the manpower to do it.
That is No. 1.
Mr. Halley. I think he pointed out that these policemen were not
available for that work in any great numbers.
Sheriff Walsh. That is not the information we have.
Mr. Greene. The State's attorney?
Mr. Halley. Yes.
Mr. Greene. He has them just for that purpose.
Mr. Halley. Can he use them in the county, city police ?
Mr. Greene. He has been doing that.
The Chairman. He said he had 76 police officers, and they were
supposed to serve subpenas and work up cases after an indictment had
been returned.
Mr. Greene. When I have been out in the county there on raids,
they have been out in all three districts, everywhere, at one time; and
it is liumanl}' impossible to be in three districts unless you have the
manpower to get out. I would find four or five of them places, and
maybe he would find the same amount, but he would have enough men
to leave in the place. He could leave the men sit in there. In many a
case, it has been there, because when j'ou go to court you hear the tesi-
mony. They sit and drink a couple of glasses of beer and wait it out,
and all of a sudden they find somebody going into the next room some-
where, and start playing the slot machine. If you can sit here and
wait it out, you can surely find something, or else go down in the
basement and find it. But if you are well known, you have a difficult
situation sitting in a tavern trying to find out when they will push a
machine out and when they will take it back in.
The Chairman. There is some testimony here to the effect, I believe
Mr. Boyle said, that he started raiding slot machines in November
1949, and when he started getting them you just quit getting them.
Sheriff Walsh. That is not true.
Mr. Greene. We are still at it.
The Chairman. Maybe that is not exactly what he said.
Sheriff Walsh. We have been getting fewer since he started, because
naturally the places that we would take them from, he got them.
Then again, the State's attorney went to private clubs, country
clubs, and took machines. We didn't do that.
The Chairivian. Why didn't you do that ?
Sheriff Walsh. Because we felt that the machines that were in these
public places on the highway were more apt to be syndicate-controlled.
We didn't have the manpower to go into all these private clubs, the
American Legion and Veterans of Foreign Wars and the private
country clubs all over the county.
Mr. Greene. And j^ou need a warrant to get into any of those places.
Definitely, if they know who j^ou are, they won't let you get past the
door.
272 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Halley. Would you care to comment on the law-enforcement
situation in the county ? As you may have heard, we have heard about
there bein^ some wide-open dice game in Calumet City, and we just
rode out there, and there it was. We asked State's Attorney Boyle
about the county situation, and we have a record of a substantial num-
ber of letters from the State's attorney to you, calling to your atten-
tion places that he had found that were open. We were wondering
M-hat comment you might have on the law-enforcement situation in tlie
county.
Sheriff Walsh, With reference to the letters received from the
State's attorney, of course you have to take this into consideration,
that on the manpower problem he had us licked four to one, to
say nothing of having plainclothesmen and investigators out who
could spot the places. For the most part, the letters I got from
State's Attorney Boyle in the county, with the exception probably
of Calumet City, were all books. I think in only one case he told
me there was a slot machine to raid. It was always books in the
county.
I feel that as sheriff of this county for nearly 4 years now — and
I have gone back and checked the records of previous sheriffs — ■
and so far as I can find, my antigambling record is better than
that of any sheriff in Cook County at any time.
The Chairman. How about the books? Did you go raid them
when he would write you about them ?
Sheriff Walsh. Yes; every time. I have letters in here answer-
ing his letter, telling wdiat we did. Every time he wrote us a letter
on a book, we would go out and raid it if it was going. If it wasn't
going, we would try to find where it moved to.
Mr. Halley. Of course, you have the situation, I think three
cases in which he called to your attention your squad cars parked
in front of places where there was gambling, and in fact, you re-
moved lieutenants as a result. Does that create any feeling in your
mind that your system needs checking up ?
Sheriff Walsh. We took that opportunity to admonish every-
body in the department, and I passed on to Chief Greene that any
time we had a similar occurrence, something worse than just firing
would happen to them.
Mr, Halley. How many lieutenants have you ?
Sheriff Walsh. Three.
Mr. Halley. Do you have captains over there ?
Sheriff Walsh. No.
Mr. Halley. Do they all serve under you?
Mr. Greene. Yes.
Mr. Halley, Then you had to fire all your lieutenants?
Mr, Greene, No.
Mr. Halley. At different times?
Sheriff Walsh. We fired two lieutenants.
Mr. Greene. I tell you, your whole picture is manpower. When
I first started, w^e had 101 more men than we have right now, and,
due to the war — no gas, tires, and cars — they were eliminated in
1944. As the sheriff stated — I don't know wdiether he stated it or
not — we put in a request, I know, last year, and we have given
them enough information. The circuit court judge who presides,
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 273
in other words, gives you the amount of help in a fee office that you
are supposed to have. Last year we had close to 11,000 calls, any-
where from dog bites to murder, that were handled by my department.
The manpower is the situation, in every instance. Many a time
you can put a detail on a gambling place and they won't operate.
It is standing right there.
Mr. Halley. I don't see the relationship of manpower to the
fact that you had to fire two lieutenants.
Mr. Greene. One didn't do his job; and the other one, the States
attorney claimed was seen in front of this place, and that is when he
was suspended. That is the relationship. In other words, one wasn't
in front of anyplace, the one that was let out. The one that was, the
last one, he was supposed to be in front of this place, where we had a
uniformed detail there, and then the uniformed detail was called off
and he was there. Seeing that he was on the premises, the sheriff took
it on himself, and it was also my recommendation that we suspend
him. On investigation, we let him out. In other words, we don't con-
done the condition. It has been hard going with the amount of men
we have had to work with.
The Chairman. You have 776 men, altogether ?
Mr. Greene. One hundred twenty-six.
Sheriff Walsh. About 727 on the rolls now.
The Chairman. That is employees?
Sheriff Walsh. They are employed in the county jail
The Chairman. That many officers or men that you have ?
Sheriff Walsh. Those are just personnel that the county board
allotted to us, that the circuit judge gives us, to perform certain duties
in my office. That includes the county jail officers in charge of guard-
ing that jail, which is the largest county jail in the United States, with
a population of about 1,300 over there as a general average. That
includes all the bailiffs in all the civil courts, all the bailiffs m all the
criminal courts on the West Side. That includes all the process sei^^ers
that serve civil writs, all the process servers who serve criminal writs
and bench warrants and indictments in the criminal end of it. It also
includes the custodial work in the county building, the elevator
operators.
The Chairman. How many does that leave you that you can have
out to enforce the law ?
Sheriff Walsh. The circuit court judge fixed that number exactly,
129.
I have taken men from some departments at times, and put them in
to help out on the police work, but you can't do that all the time, be-
cause they can't work dav and night. We try to get additional help
each year. We ask for 100 additional men. And each year when the
budget comes up, we never get them.
The Chairman. Anything else, Mr. Halley?
Mr. Halley. Chief, what is your salary as chief ?
Mr. Greene. $6,500 a year.
Mr. Halley. In 1949, did you have any income aside from your
income from the chief's job?
Mr. Greene. That is all.
Mr. Halley. Thank you.
274 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INITERSTATE COMMERCE
The Chairman. Sheriff, are all these stocks, and things you own,
listed stocks on the exchange ?
Sheriff Walsh. Yes ; they are all listed stocks.
Tlie Chairman. Do either you or the chief own any interest in any
tavern or anything of that sort ?
Sheriff Walsh. No. I have no interest in any tavern.
Mr. Greene. No, sir ; none.
The Chairman. Or in any business, except corporate stocks ?
Sheriff Walsh. That is right.
The Chairman. Where do you live ? You say you sold your home.
Sheriff Walsh. I live on the South Side, 1500.
The Chairman. Just a rented home ?
Sheriff Walsh. I am living in an apartment now.
The Chairman. Where do you live. Chief ?
Mr. Greene. Apartment 33'33 West Birdsall. I liave lived there for
121/^ years.
The Chairman. Are you a man of means ?
Mr. Greene. No, sir.
The Chairman. You have no income except salary ?
Mr. Greene. That is right.
The Chairman. Married and have a family ?
Mr. Greene. Yes.
The Chairman. All right, gentlemen. Thaiik you.
( Discussion off the record. )
The Chairman. Back on the record.
Besides Calumet City, what are the worst spots in the county ?
Mr. Greene. You mean the places themselves ?
The Chairman. No, the sections or the towns.
Mr. Greene. The towns would be Melrose Park, that would be one.
The Chairman. Where else?
Mr. Greene. And Forest Park. That is about all of the towns. Of
course, Calumet City, which you know about. Those are the three
towns.
Sheriff Walsh. And Cicero.
Mr. Greene. Yes, Cicero. That is right.
The Chairman. Anything else ?
Mr. Halley. Nothing else.
Sheriff Walsh. Senator, may I have this made a part of the record
here ? It is a factual statement.
The Chairman. Yes, sir. We will file this as exhibit No. 32.
(The booklet referred to, Let's Look at His Record, was identified
as exhibit No. 32, and is on file with the committee.)
Sheriff Walsh. Thank you, gentlemen.
The Chairman. Thank you. Sheriff, and thank you, Chief.
(Witnesses excused.)
The Chairman. Mr. Bennett, have you been sworn ?
Mr. Bennett. No.
The Chairman. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give
this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God?
Mr. Bennett. I do.
The Chairman. All right, gentlemen.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 275
TESTIMONY OF HUGO BENNETT, SURFSIDE, ELA.
Mr. Robinson. Will you state your full name?
Mr. Bennett. Hugo Bennett.
Mr. Robinson. Have you always had that name i
Mr. Bennett. No.
Mr. Robinson. Your name has been changed i
Mr. Bennett. Yes.
Mr. Robinson. Wliat was it originally i
Mr. Bennett. Hugo Benvenuti.
Mr. Robinson. What is your address?
Mr Bennett. 9517 Carlisle Avenue, Surf side, 1^ la.
Mr. Robinson. Is that your permanent and legal residence i
Mr. Bennett. Yes ; it is. . r^-i • o
Mr. Robinson. Do you have a residence m Chicago «
Mr. Bennett. No. . . , ,
Mr. Robinson. Do you file your returns m Florida <
Mr R^oBixSi. Mr. Bennett, you did produce certain books and
records and canceled checks, and so forth, when we talked the other
day. Do you have any other records?
Mr Robinson. I believe you mentioned there was some records that
weie not produced that youVould look for. Do you have those records
'' Mr.^BENNETT. Yes; I think I have what we talked about. You
asked for the mortgages. I got those.
Mr. Robinson. That is right.
Mr. Bennett. And the notes.
Mr. Robinson. I believe there were two mortgages.
Mr. Bennett. Yes.
Mr. Robinson. And the notes.
The Ch\ikman. Let us identify them and get on here.
Mr. Robinson. Will you state what the first mortgage is?
Mr. Hallet. Identify that. -n „„i.
Mr. Bennett. This is a first mortgage on property at Long Beach,
Ind., belonging to Paul DeLucia.
The Chapman. Wliat is the date of it, so we caii identity it^
Mr Bennett. The date of it is the 22d day of June 1948. _
Mr. Robinson. Are those original mortgages or are they copies i
Mr. Bennett. No ; these are the originals.
:Mr. Robinson. Is that the original note?
Mr. Bennett. This is the original note.
Mr. Robinson. May I take a look at them?
(Documents handed to Mr. Robinson.)
Mr Robinson. \Vliat is the second document that you have?
Mr* Bennett. The second document is the second mortga_ge on the
property of Paul and Nancy DeLucia at Kendall County, ill.
Mr. Robinson. What is the date of that mortgage ? .
Mr. Bennett. The date of that mortgage is— have I got these mixed
^^^Mr. Robinson. This is June 22, 1948, the first one.
Mr. Bennett. May 17, 1950.
276 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. KoBiNSON. May I look at those, please ?
Mr. Bennett. Yes, sir.
(Documents handed to Mr. Robinson.)
Mr. Robinson. Where are you employed, Mr. Bennett ?
Mr. Bennett. I am auditor of the Miami Beach Kennel Club and
the National Jockey Club.
Mr. Robinson. Do you have any connection with the tracks in Chi-
cao;o?
Mr. Bennett. With other tracks?
Mr. Robinson. Yes.
Mr. Bennett. Oh, yes. Well, for the present, I also am employed
at Hawthorn.
Mr. Robinson. What is your position there ?
Mr. Bennett. Well, I just handle its parking.
Mr. Robinson. What is your salary from the clubs?
Mr. Bennett. From the clubs ?
Mr. Robinson. Yes.
Mr. Bennett. It is $9,000 at the Miami Beach Kennel Club, and
$6,000 at the National Jockey Club. And
The Chairman. The National Jockey Club is Sportsman's Park out
here?
Mr. Bennett. That is right.
Mr. Robinson. How did vou obtain employment at Sportsman's
Park?
Mr. Bennett. I was out of a position in 1932, and just came into the
place and applied for a job. It just happened that they needed some-
body. I spoke to Mr. O'Hare at the time. It was a sort of temporary
thing at first. It was just sort of a temporary thing at first. He liked
my work and kept me on after that.
Mr. Robinson. Did anyone sponsor you for that job ?
Mr. Bennett. No, sir.
Mr. Robinson. When were you first employed there?
Mr. Bennett. It was in May 1932.
Mr. Robinson. Are you responsible for keeping the books and rec-
ords of that park ?
Mr. Bennett. Yes.
Mr. Robinson. So far as your own personal records are concerned,
do you keep any record of cash receipts and disbursements, and that
sort of thing ?
Mr. Bennett. No ; I don't.
Mr. Robinson. Do you supervise the auditing at other tracks be-
sides those that you have named ?
Mr. Bennett. No ; I do not.
Mr. Robinson. Do you have any connection with the auditing work
at any other track other than those that you have named ?
Mr. Bennett. No ; the only connection I have is just in a sort of ad-
visory capacity, if something in the line of a tax matter comes up or
anything like that.
Mr. Robinson. Do you receive any compensation for that?
Mr. Bennett. Yes. I did. I don't believe I did last year or the
year before. From two other tracks.
Mr. Robinson. Do you have any other records? It just occurred to
me when we talked the other day, Mr. Bennett, you were goiug to
furnish a list of your stock holdings.
ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 277
]Mr. Bennett. Yes ; I have that right here.
(Document handed to Mr. Robinson.)
Mr. Robinson. You have added to that list, I note, the amount that
you paid for the stock at the time of acquisition.
* Mr. Bennett. That is right, the amount of money that the stock
cost me.
The Chairman. That will be filed as exhibit No. 33.
(Exhibit No. 33 appears in the appendix on p. 1383.)
Mr. Robinson. What did you state your salary to be from Sports-
man's Park ?
:Mr. Bennett. $6,000. I want to correct that. It is $6,000, but we
have two charity meetings there.
Mr. Robinson. Two what ^
Mr. Bennett. Charity meetings. We have two extra meetings
there. One is for the Chicago Tribune Charities, and one is for the
Herald- American and the Daily News. I do get extra compensation
from those two meetings. So 'it will probably show that I received
more than $6,000 from the National Jockey Club.
Mr. Robinson. I understood in our interview the other day you
stated vour salary as auditor for Sportsman's Park to be $22,500.
Mr. Bennett. No. You asked me how much money do I make in
salaries, and I looked at my tax return and I said $22,000, approxi-
mately $22,000.
Mr. Robinson. That is your salary from all the clubs ?
Mr. Bennett. Yes.
The Chairman. How much do you make out at Hawthorn?
Mr. Bennett. That is $25 a day.
Mr. Robinson. Outside of the stock that you have submitted on this
list here, do you own any other property?
Mr. Bennett. Yes. 1 have listed there the property that I own.
IVIr. Robinson. The real estate that you own?
Mr. Bennett. That is right.
Mr. Robinson. That includes a house in Florida ?
Mr. Bennett. The house in Florida, yes, and I have the original
cost there ; and a house in Saugatuck, Mich., a cottage.
Mr. Robinson. You have listed what improvements you have put
into the house ?
Mr. Bennett. Approximately. That is only a guess. _
Mr. Robinson. ISIr. Bennett, do you know Paul DeLucia?
]Mr. Bennett. Yes.
Mr. Robinson. How long have you known him ?
Mr. Bennett. Well, quite a long time. I can't saj' exactly when
I first remember him. It was since I was a child, practically.
Mr. Robinson. How frequently do you see him, as a general rule?
Mr. Bennett. Not too frequently.
Mr. Robinson. How frequently have you seen him since he has
been out of the penitentiary ?
Mr. Bennett. Oh, I would say about 7 or 8 times.
Mr. Robinson. What were the occasions for those meetings?
Mr. Bennett. In connection with these loans.
JSIr. Robinson. Do you see him socially ?
Mr. Bennett. Not very much ; but I have seen him socially, also.
Mr. R; )Bi:'TS:iN. Did you visit him when he was in prison ?
Mr. Bennett. No : I did not.
278 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN mrTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Robinson. Did you correspond' with him ?
Mr. Bennett. No; I did not.
Mr, Robinson. Prior to his going to prison, did you see him very
frequently ?
Mr, Bennett. No.
Mr. Robinson. On social occasions or other occasions?
Mr. Bennett. Yes; on some social occasions.
Mr. Robinson. How frequently would it be?
Mr, Bennett, Well, I would say every time I would come in town,
I would pay him at least one or two social visits,
Mr. Robinson. Would that be at his farm or would it be here in
town ?
Mr. Bennett. No ; in town here.
Mr. Robinson. Did you see him frequently at the Sportsman's
track ?
Mr. Bennett. I have never seen him at the Sportsman's track.
Mr. Robinson. Do you have a safe deposit box, Mr. Bennett ?
Mr. Bennett. Yes ; I do.
Mr. Robinson. Where is that?
Mr. Bennett, I have one at the Miami Beach First National Bank
in Miami Beach, Fla., and I have one at the Cicero State Bank in
Cicero, 111.
Mr. Robinson. What do you keep in those boxes ?
Mr. Bennett. Papers, mostly papers, and in one box I have a little
cash.
Mr. Robinson. How much?
Mr. Bennett. Oh, about a thousand dollars.
Mr. Robinson. What banks do you ordinarily do business with ?
Mr. Bent ett. Mercantile National Bank.
Mr. RoBi ►rsoN. That is where?
Mr. Ben k^ett. That is in Miami Beach. That is the only bank I
do business . with.
Mr. RotAnson. Mr. Bennett, would you relate the circumstances
connected with your first loan to Mr. DeLucia ?
Mr. BEWNErr. Well, as I understood it, he needed some money to
make improvements on his farm
Mr. Robinson. Let's take it up in as much detail as we can. Did
he get in touch with you, and how ?
Mr. Bennett. Yes; he did. I don't remember exactly, but I be-
lieve he called me at home, at my home here, my mother-in-law's
home, I should say, here, where I stay when I am in town here. I
went to visit him, and he mentioned what his problems were about
making these improvements at the farm; that now that he was out
and on parole, he was going to center on the farming business. He
said he was going to need some money. He asked me if I could do
anything for him in that line, and I asked him if there wasn't any
other way that he could borrow money. He said, well, he would try.
He said there was not particular rush about this.
Mr. Robinson. How much did he want to borrow ?
Mr. Bennett. Well, at the time, he said he would need about
$60,000, or something like that. He said he thought that would meet
his needs.
Mr. Robinson. Did you have that ainount of money?
Mr. Bennett. No ; I didn't.
O'RGAjSnrZEO CRIME IN rNTE;RSTATE COMMERCE 279
Then I just left to^Yn, Avhich I always do about the 1st of Decem-
ber, and I went to Florida. - 1 came back in the si)ring. and in the
spring we talked again about this loan. At that time I made hrni
the loan.
Mr. EoBiNSON. When you first talked to hnn, was there any hnal
settlement as to what amount he did want or what amount you could
get for him ? ,- • , i i i
Mr. Bennett. No; there wasn't anything definite about tlie whole
thino-, at all. He just thought that he was going to need this money.
Mr. Robinson. How did the final sum of $40,000 get decided on?
Mr. Bennett. He said he was going to need more than that. He
said he was going to try to borrow money elsewhere, which I under-
stand he did try. The sum of $40.000, 1 think, was arrived at because
that is about all the security he could oifer at the time.
Mr. Robinson. Was there any discussion about what the security
was going to be?
Mr. Bennett. Yes; about that time we discussed that.
Mr. Robinson. What was the discussion ?
Mr. Bennett. I asked him what he could offer for security, and he
told me that he could offer this place in Long Beach, which he w^ould
try to sell then.
Next, if I remember correctly, when we first talked about the thing,
he was going to try to sell the home immediately. AVhen I came back
in the spring, he hadn't sold it yet.
Mr. Robinson. Did he have a mortgage on it at that time, do you
know ?
Mr. Bennett. No ; he didn't.
Mr. Robinson. Did you inyestigate to find out ?
Mr. Bennett. My attorney investigated all that.
I also told him to investigate and see if there w^ere any Govern-
ment liens on it.
Mr. Robinson. You were satisfied that it was good collateral?
Mr. Bennett. I was satisfied it was good collateral; yes.
Mr. Robinson. Do you recall at what time the loan was made?
Mr. Bennett. It was in the spring of 1948, I believe, the first
loan.
]Mr. Robinson. Did you take the money from your own funds to
make the loan ?
Mr. BENXE-rr. I borrowed most of it. I borrowed $20,000 from Mr.
Johnston.
Mr. Robinson. "\Mio is he ?
Mr. Bennett. He is the president of Sportsman's Park. I bor-
rowed $15,000 from Mr. Silverberg.
Mr. Robinson. Did you give any note to Mr. Johnston?
Mr. Bennett. Yes ; I gave him a note, and I gave him collateral,
a^so.
Mr. Robinson. What was the collateral that you gave him ?
Mr. Bennett. I gave him the stock certificate of the National
J ockey Club.
Mr. Robinson. How many shares?
Mr. Bennett. One hundred eighty shares, but I only gave him 146
s aares as collateral.
Mr. Robinson. I don't follow you. You said you had 180 shares?
280 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INITERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Bennett. Yes ; 180 shares. I gave him 146 shares as collateral.
Mr. EoBiNSON. You got $15,000 from Mr. Silverberg?
Mr. Bennett. Max Silverberg; yes.
Mr. Robinson. Who is he?
Mr. Bennett. He is the concessionaire at Arlington Park, Wash-
ington Park, and Sportsman's Park, and several other places.
Mr. EoBiNSON. Did you give a note to him for that?
Mr. Bennett. Yes; I did.
Mr. EoBiNSON. Did you give him any collateral ?
Mr. Bennett. No ; I didn't.
Mr. Robinson. No collateral whatsoever was put up for that loan ?
Mr. Bennett. No; there wasn't.
Mr. Robinson. What was the conversation with Mr. Johnston when
you made the loan from him ?
Mr. Bennett. I just told him I had to make an investment and I
wanted to borrow $20,000. I told him I could offer him collateral
lor it.
Mr. Robijv^son. How about Mr. Silverberg?
Mr. Bennett. Well, Mr. Silverberg had loaned me money on pre-
vious occasions, and he didn't want any collateral. He said it wasn't
necessary. He would just lend me the money without any collateral.
Mr. Robinson. Wliere did the other $5,000 come from ?
Mr. Bennett. My own funds, personal funds.
Mr. Robinson. How was that $40,000 made i^ayable to Mr.
DeLucia ?
Mr. Bennett. There Avas a check for $10,000, my personal check
for $10,000, and there was a cashier's check — to the Lest of my recol-
lection, a cashier's check in the amount of $30,000 that was written
at tlie Mercantile National Bank in Miami Beach. Tliat is to the
best of my recollection. I am sure that is what it was.
Mr. Robinson. Mr. Bennett, I want to show you. this canceled check,
dated May 5, 1948. Is that the first portion of the loan that you made
to Mr. DeLucia, that $10,000 check ?
Mr. Bennett. That is correct. I thought at the time, when I gave
him this check^ — he said there was no rush about it. He said, "Wait
until you have all the money." I said, "As long as I have made the
check out, just go ahead and keep it, and I will get the rest."
Mr. Robinson. That check was made payable to Mr. DeLucia ?
Mr. Bennett. That is corre 
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